Shouldn't We Be Allowed the Choice?
 

I am starting this thread not to argue or insult each other, but to encourage freedom of CHOICE regarding horns in dairy goats.

This has nothing to do with The Great Horned Debate, and I won't engage in that discussion.

I have dairy goats. I also have three children who really want to show a couple of kids. But because I disagree with disbudding, my children will not be allowed to show their goats. I think this policy is crap, and I have contacted the ADGA about it.

From the ADGA page:

Q - My animal has natural horns. Can it be shown?

A - No, animals with natural horns shall not be shown.


Why not give goat owners the choice, and not penalize animals that are left in their natural state?

I know some will say I DO have a choice, and that would be not to show if I choose to keep horns on my animals. While that is true, I have to wonder WHY the ADGA insists on mutilation in order to show.

Whether you disbud or not, wouldn't most of you agree that children shouldn't be excluded based on an arbitrary rule?


Every other breed of goat is allowed to be shown with horns, why are only dairy breeds are excluded?

I am not asking anyone to believe what I believe, or do what I do. But can't we all agree that owners should be able to show and not be forced to go against what we believe?

Many of you have said you won't own horned goats for various reasons, and that is fine.

But many more of you have said you don't like to disbud at all, but feel you won't be able to sell your goats if you don't, because so many people want them for shows. If we all stood up to the ADGA and demanded that they stop disqualification for horned dairy goats, they would have to back down.

Please, if you believe that people should be able to choose whether or not to disbud, and still be allowed to show, please, please contact the ADGA and let them know that this mandate is arbitrary and unfair. Choice is at the heart of the matter.

http://www.adga.org/index.php?option...d=2&Itemid=182


As an interesting side note, and I am not making this up, I just came back inside from the barn. As I was writing this post, my girls came inside to tell me that one of our sheep had her head stuck in a hog panel. She has no horns.

Horned animals can't be appraised either. Having horns on dairy goats limits a LOT of opportunities that are available and lowers value of the animals, unfortunately.

I don't think disbudding is horrible or hard to do, but confidence is a must if you're going to go about it.

I think people should be able to choose horned/disbudded. Raising boers, I wish they'd give you a choice too - now they're discriminating against goats that ARE disbudded - they can never be ennobled. Because my boer buck is an arse, I'd rather have had him disbudded. Especially since he's housed with my alpine buck whose top of his head gets all raw and sore because he's always beating heads against the boer buck during rut. But I chose to leave horns on the boers. I will be leaving horns on all boers I sell unless requested to be disbudded prior to 1 week of age.

Well, you could always breed polled dairy goats! :) Sorry, I agree it is a stupid rule. I do disbud my kids (except the polled ones) but it doesn't seem fair to penalize people for not disbudding.

I'm pretty active in 4H here.
If your girls want to show market wethers to see if they like to show, those can have horns - BUT - be aware that at my fairground and several others I've known, if you have a horned goat there, you need to have a camper and sleep near the barns. Every year there are several campers back there. The fair will NOT be held liable if your horned animal gets hurt or hurts another animal or person. It is YOUR job to be right there and make sure that some unsupervised kid doesn't climb in with your animal and hurt themselves.

So it's not just the ADGA that you have to worry about.
I don't show, and would only show a market wether - if something is being exposed to everything at a show, it's not coming back here.

But I also think that it is a stupid rule, both that dairy does can not have horns and that Boers must. I don't milk horns, and I don't eat horns.

Guess it's not much different than dog breeds that can't be shown if they don't have their tails docked or their ears clipped...

It is a safety thing not a discrimination thing. You can register your goats all day long with A.D.G.A. , just not show. I can just see all those pee wee showmanship kids in the ring with three or four month old kids with horns. First kid(human) that gets a horn thrown up in there face when they are ask to switch goats. Sorry, I won't be contacting A.D.G.A. and the heart of this is the GREAT HORN DEBATE !!! P.S. Don't think AGS will let you show horned goats either.

I have a Nubian doe whose previous owner tried to disbud, and failed. Now, my lovely little deer doe will always have goofy, misshapen, problem horns.

I just don't get why these organizations mandate something that should be discretionary. What is the reasoning behind it?

Oh bull pucky. Every other breed is allowed horns, just not dairy.

And please point me to an article detailing how some poor little kid was gored to death by a rampaging Nigerian Dwarf.

The possibility of getting injured exists around any animal.

So let's assume for the sake of argument that it is a safety thing. Why not have polled/disbudded shows AND horned shows? That way if you are worried about little Timmy getting a horn to the face you can let him show LaManchas or something, while my kids are in a different ring showing intact Nubians.

This is what I mean by it is about the GREAT HORN DEBATE. Sorry should not have put my .02 in on this one since everyone knows where I stand.

That might work. Have goats without horns show during the fair and horned goats show a week later when there wouldn't be that "worry". I'm thinking that the concern (real or imagined) is for th whole time they are on the fair grounds.

I had a quiet Work Horse stallion and the fair board wouldn't let my son use him in Jr Showmanship. Imagine that? He was always a well behaved 2000 pound stallion.

No, see that is where the issue is. You are absolutely allowed to have an opinion, and to keep your kids safe by only allowing them to show with polled animals.

But why am I not allowed to keep my animals intact and let my kids and others show their horned NDs and Nubians?

I am not debating whether or not you should disbud, or that you are wrong for doing so, but you can't say in general it is for safety reasons, because every other group of goats is allowed to be horned.

Actually, since you have dairy goats with horns, you must have noticed that their horns grow differently. A 5 month old Boer has horns that are already curving back (horn shape is one of the things they are judged on, and this is why) while your 5 month old dairies have spikes that go straight up.

Check out this breeder page. http://www.circle3ranch.net/Pages/Co...d=6&f=B&fbid=1
See how they curve back at a very young age and short length? That IS, in fact, safer, both for the animal and for the handler, then the upward horns of a dairy goat.
And again, that is why all breeds shown with horns are bred for that trait.

Also, the reasoning behind disbudded Boer goats not being show-able. I was told by several breeders and judges (and this is hearsay, I have no personal experience) that the upward horns are dominant and a give-away that the animal has some dairy in it's pedigree and is not pure.

I still don't get it. ONLY dairy goats are dealt with in this way. Why isn't everyone freaked out about the liability for other groups of horned goats?

And honestly, you go to the fair and there are huge horses, and little kids riding them and being around other animals that are strangers to them, and no one freaks out.

There are GIANT horned cattle just walking the hallways.

And yet, some tiny little Nigerian Dwarf must be dehorned because she might hurt someone.

I just think that there is power in numbers, and for those of us who think all kids and their goats should be treated fairly, we can get this policy changed. But only if we speak out about it, and demand change.

For those of you who don't care, cool, don't write a letter.

You can have horned goats if you want. Just can't show them around my kids.

You can also smoke cigarettes if you want. Just not around my kids.

Wanna do drugs? Go ahead, but guess what...not around my kids...

In fact you can do anything you want to that you don't consider dangerous, but, if I believe it is, then you can't do it around my kids...Because you don't see the harm in it, doesn't mean there's not...

Want to show your goats with horns? Start your own show and have at it.

To be fair, the attitude is sometimes about horns and goats in general. We had to fight hard to get my DD's boers in the fair with horns. Our local guy in charge was convinced that all goats with horns are aggressive. One time they let a kid bring a BUCK (who does THAT?) who had horns. The goat BIT some kid, however it was the horns that made him aggressive. ????!!! :eek::pound:

My DD is allowed to have horns on her boer, but we have to nip the ends off.

By that same logic, we should pull all their teeth and cut off their hooves. Why should my kids be at risk from your goats' teeth?

I do understand where you are coming from earthkitty. But, I don't think it's gonna change, and I say that with a heavy heart. We have a horned meat herd..never one problem with us or any other animals getting hooked by them. We also have HORNED Dexter cattle..so I do understand.

I'm sure a lot of Otter's last post is true to the point. I don't think you have many options. Your horned milk girls and boys are no less well bred and worthy..they are just "horn discriminated". But as in all things..you either have to be mad at yourself for going against what you believe in..or get mad at others for forcing you into a spot like you're in. Neither works very well.

For us, we just stand my our horned critters. And yes, it does sometimes cost us in a sale.

I'm gonna have a problem with the milk kids that are due in March. Well bred girls that have been dehorned..having kids..I don't disbud. So, I know going in that unless someone wants them young..my kids will be going to the sale barn for meat.

Take care and don't beat your head against the wall..the wall will win.

I am in the NO HORNS camp. Safety for me and those who visit here. I don't show.

It's a safety issue like others here have posted. Not only for the other people showing, but for their goats as well. I used to hate disbudding. Now after doing it for 6 years and probably over 100 kids it no longer bothers me. I just look at it as part of having goats and it's something that I believe that if I am going to have them, I need to do for not only my safety but theirs too.

I don't think I would want to show my goats with horned does in the same ring. The reason being, if for some reason we were doing a side by side line, and a horned doe just felt like being pushy (you know how goats can get) and nailed my doe in the side something bad could happen. Is it likely? No, but it could happen and if it did I would feel much better having a dis-budded doe hit my doe then one with horns.

The first year I showed there were some boer goats with horns (shown in a seperate show) housed in the row behind me. All week at the fair they kept getting their head stuck in their hay feeder. Random people would come up to me and tell me the goats were stuck so I would go over, climb in the pen and pull them out. Just seemed like something I was glad I personally didn't need to worry about happening with my animals. I have no problem if you want to keep horns on your goats, I just feel that if you want to show them, they should be shown seperatly from dis-budded animals.

I could be wrong here..but I think earth kitty and I are not pro horns because we don't want to learn to disbud. I think we are pro horns because we believe that that is the way they were intended to be. There is a difference.

A horned animal going crazy in line and goring the next goat or the kid holding it..MIGHT happen.? If it did..it would be more than a horn problem..it would be a temperament problem and in that case would hurt someone with or without horns.

I guess in order to understand earth kitty's predicament, you would have to imagine wanting to show your dehorned animals and being told 'NO' because they are not intact. You would feel bad and frustrated. That's all this is. Kitty is feeling like the odd man out and no one likes that feeling.

I understand what your saying about being frustrated. That's why I said I have no problem with horned animals being allowed to be shown seperatley, that way everyone could be happy.

Like I said, it's not likely for a horned animal goring another goat, or worse a child, while showing but it could happen. And yes, it would be a tempermant problem and someone could get hurt regardless if the goat had horns but there would be a zero percent chance of someone being gored if there were only hornless animals in the ring.

Sometimes having a history of coaching debate is NOT a good thing. It's difficult to remain quiet. I'm writing this with a mental tone of calm thoughtfulness. Please read it with that in mind. :nice:

Just debating here.....

You do have a choice, and you made a choice. You choose not to disbud. You are aware of the rules of all the goat registries, and you still made that choice.

Trying to change the status quo is VERY difficult, especially when history (of the registries) and the safety factors are against you. What do you think are your chances to succeed?

On safety: I don't think anyone is assuming a child in the show ring will be "gored." "Gored" is an inflammatory word, and it distracts for the real issue. It's the risk to eyes and udders that are more realistic. There is at least one goat owner on this board that had a doe's udder ruined by a goat with horns before she eliminated all horns from her herd.

If you are feeling "odd man out," then that's an appropriate response. :) Wanting horns on dairy goats is the "odd man out" position. That's simply a fact and the current reality. You can fight it if you want, but when fighting reality, you will lose. 100% of the time.

That said, if you are so passionate about horns, then you can now choose to spend the time, energy, emotions, computer time, and postage to mount a massive campaign to change the rules. However, please evaluate the possibility of success and decide if this is a battle worth fighting. Are you really wanting to fight for a rule change at the expense of your family, garden, job, free time, and serenity? I've learned to pick my battles. :)

That's it. End debate mode. :)

The big safety factors mentioned are eyes and udders. Are these really significant factors in a show ring? Honest question as I don't show.

I’m not a goat expert. I do, however, have lots of experience with 4H fairs, showing of livestock and liability issues.
In a meat goat’s lifetime, the owner may have very little contact with their goat. In a milk goat’s lifetime, the owner spends considerable time with their goat. Temperament and horns will not be as big an issue with a meat goat as a milk goat. That could be a rational reason for the general notion against horned milk breeds. Perhaps the shape and direction are major factors, too.
As far as liability, you are correct that there is only a slightly greater chance for a child’s injury during the brief show times, with a horned animal. But several days prior to and several days after the show, 4H animals are exposed to the public, young and old. That greatly expands the risk exposure. In a Court room, the Fair Board may someday have to answer the question, “What steps did you take to prevent such an injury to occur?”
Many years ago, I conferred with a Percheron Horse Showman. I complained about the oversized shoes and use of plastic body filler on the hooves. He gave me some wise advice, that I’ll never forget, “ If you are going to show, you have to be willing to do whatever it takes to win.” I wasn’t willing to do that and I stopped showing horses. Perhaps you have made choices that impact future opportunities. You are free to continue your raising of horned milk goats and not show them, you can step into line with the thousands of milk goat owners across the land that disbud their milk goats, or you can launch a campaign against your local fair board.
When someone starts out with, “ Not to start that old argument, but….” I think of, “ Well, not to hurt your feelings, but….” Or “I wouldn’t dream of disagreeing with you, but….”
Sound like the horn or no horns has become a bit of a dead horse. The fight is with the Fair Board.

Like others have already said my worry is udders. I see my girls all the time push the "weaker" ones out of the way by picking them up from under them. Me personally I didn't care either way if they had horns or not until one of my does got hurt by another one. After that day I will not own a goat here that is not disbud. We have a forum member who had to put down a buckling (I believe it was a buckling) due to one horned goat getting scared from a wild fire. I give vaccines to them to warn off illness and I personally think this is just another way to keep my goats safe. All our goats born here will be unless the buyer asks before hand.

Its a personal choice in what you want done but like all choices they may limit you in what you can do. I don't see ADGA changing the rules but good luck with your letter writing.

When we started out dh wanted the goats to be "natural." Neither of us had a problem being around horned animals. After I nearly lost an eye to a buckling looking for me to help him and dh saving a few of them from getting their heads stuck, we decided disbudding was safer for our farm.

I'm gonna repeat my question, are there significant safety risks in a show environment? I can understand why people would have/not have them at home but why would earthkitty's horned goats be risk to other people at a show?

I think that has been addressed above. Post #20 discusses other issues with horns and skims the point that non-goat folks will encounter goats in pens at the show.

Because at most shows, you can't just show up for your class, leave the ring and go home. Your animal has to stay on the grounds for the length of the show, anywhere from a day to a week. In a totally new, chaotic environment filled with strange people and animals. There's a lot more opportunity for accidents.
And yes, the animals should be trained and of good temperament - but as I tell my kids, we call it an accident because no one meant for it to happen.

In the show ring itself - should be no risk. Except for 2 things. People being people, at the local showing level, there's nothing preventing someone dragging some wild as a march hare yearling out of the back pasture and showing up. Happens every year at every county fair I've ever been to.
Last year, one of the poor, unhandled things was getting the required ear tag, the handler got distracted by being bumped by the goat behind her (they do the tags right in the barn, before the fair part is open, but still plenty busy there) involuntarily loosened her grip for a split second and that goat shot out of there - leaving half her ear behind and running scared over half the fair ground before she was cornered and caught.
It happens.
And we're talking about junior showing. Have you seen it? Little kids down to all of 4 years old showing all kinds of goats. Wicked cute. One of those kids manages to either fall over or let go of the lead at every single show and fair I've ever been to for 15 years.
If what they're tripping over is that little yearling Nigie with their straight up spikes ... takes all the cute out of it.


At the risk of thread drift (my apologies in advance :lookout:) please do your kids a favor and take them to the processor.
I would never in a million years take a well-bred dairy doeling to the sale barn. God forbid she gets bought up by someone who wants a brush goat and breeds her.
I have saved a well-bred, high producing goat who, by unhappy twist of fate, ended up a brush goat and bred. I know I've told the story of her mastitis that was so bad she got gangrene. Four times a day, my friend and I tied her down, gave her shots and then massaged cold serum from the one teat and cold black blood and pus from the other.
We actually celebrated the day the blood was red and warm. The side that we got the cold serum out of sloughed off. Have you ever seen a huge hunk of flesh rot right off a living creature's body?

If you feel it's cruel to disbud, that's fine. Doesn't bother me any. If you butcher goats, that's fine too. But as cruel as you feel it is to disbud, I feel it is far, far crueler to take a highly bred animal and put it where people are almost certain to be ignorant of it's care, resulting in slow, lingering death.
Stepping down :soap:

Wait, you are saying adults can show but kids cannot if the goat has horns? Then that sounds more like a safety and liability issue.
They should require those yellow baseballs to be taped onto the horns during the whole time the animal is on the show property.

I personally would never buy a horned animal, to protect my other animals, people and to keep it from getting caught.

This is really a duel question.

#1 Will or should they allow horned goats at sanctioned dairy shows. Not for me to decide. It's their show their rules. We all know the "rules".

#2 The appeals about safety or "natural" has nothing to do with it.


On a side note. If your dairy goats are aggressive at all. Like hitting each other or battling. (except boys at the peak of rut and this also only applies to general butting for dominance not body blows. If you watch there is a difference. The boys battle but kinda wait a second to see if the other guy is ready. ) Goats even the biggest don't just willy nilly hit or sucker punch. Butting heads has a purpose. It's for establishing dominance once established it should stop. Cull, if the goat can't get along with others. That isn't acceptable behavior with or without horns. It's my belief disbudding can be used as a crutch to keep an otherwise cull animal "safe" to be around.

At the risk of thread drift (my apologies in advance :lookout:) please do your kids a favor and take them to the processor.
I would never in a million years take a well-bred dairy doeling to the sale barn. God forbid she gets bought up by someone who wants a brush goat and breeds her.
I have saved a well-bred, high producing goat who, by unhappy twist of fate, ended up a brush goat and bred. I know I've told the story of her mastitis that was so bad she got gangrene. Four times a day, my friend and I tied her down, gave her shots and then massaged cold serum from the one teat and cold black blood and pus from the other.
We actually celebrated the day the blood was red and warm. The side that we got the cold serum out of sloughed off. Have you ever seen a huge hunk of flesh rot right off a living creature's body?

If you feel it's cruel to disbud, that's fine. Doesn't bother me any. If you butcher goats, that's fine too. But as cruel as you feel it is to disbud, I feel it is far, far crueler to take a highly bred animal and put it where people are almost certain to be ignorant of it's care, resulting in slow, lingering death.
Stepping down :soap:[/QUOTE]


Thank you very much for sharing the fate of YOUR goat and the misuse/abuse that she received. I don't believe I said that disbudding was "cruel". I think I said we just don't believe in doing it.

We use a sale barn..the buyers do NOT take them home. The buyers are for meat processors. Yes, does and bucks alike go. Legally, they cannot go back to a private party's home.

Thank you for directing your concern and soap-box at me. But I assure you, hubby and I are fairly responsible people. If we live by certain "rules", we know the consequences and deal with them as responsibly as possible. We were just discussing the kids from these two combined lines. We can't sell them as milk goats (horned or dehorned) to anyone that doesn't fully comprehend what huge milkers they will be and take care of them right..not cut corners on times milked and length milked.

Our milk girls are disbudded..that's fine with me..I didn't do it. Their kids? Hey, if someone wants well bred horned milk goats..no problem. If they want disbudded milk goats..someone else is going to have to take them off..it's that simple. If no one wants them..they are meat. Can't say it any more clearer. They will NOT be brush goats or thrown to the seven winds. We don't operate that way.

Sometimes rules are set to take the "fight" out of a situation.
In Michigan, there is a rule against all alcohol in State Parks. But everyone does it, but because it is against the rule, anytime there is some loud party, the Ranger doesn't have to argue how loud is too loud, how drunk is too drunk, etc.

If they don't allow horned goats at all, they don't have to decide if this one is not aggressive, but this one is and that one might be, etc. Makes it easier to just not allow them than wait for an incident and then have to argue about it. Horns are a liability from the movent they enter the fair grounds until they leave.

I don't see why I can't bring box cutters on a commercial plane, I've never cut anyone.

Ok...now I'm confused. At the Goat Expo that I went to in Des Moines there were goats there that did have horns. They were not in the show ring but they were staying on the grounds along with the peoples other goats. Also, I didn't see any children showing goats...it was all adults. Granted I didn't see every show. But the ones I did see it was adults. I don't recall seeing many children there at all. Except the darling Jubilee! :)
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2...D550/ry%3D400/http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2...D550/ry%3D400/http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2...D550/ry%3D400/http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2...D550/ry%3D400/

Minelson..I LOVE THAT JUBILEE!! Who's goat is that? He's gorgeous..his hair looks silky.

I don't know whose goat that is...just a pic from my random shots. :)

Not neccessarily. Some will buy them with horns. I don't disbud either and haven't had any problems selling my ND's, but then again, I don't show and the people I sell to aren't buying to show, but for the milk.

Thanks Sonshine. I truly hope that we can find some of them a good home. You give me hope!

Ok,, two things. I have never in life been attacked with horns by a scared goat. Every freaked out goat that I have dealt with has used teeth and hooves.

Second, 4 YEAR OLDS are showing??!! That is a problem in and of itself! I can't think of any other animal that is allowed to be shown by small children. I would never let my little kid handle an animal like that. They don't know what to do with it and are not capable of controlling it. That is borderline animal abuse. If you take an animal into a strange situation, you owe it the ability to control it and keep it safe.

Where we used to live littles were allowed to 'show' but a parent was required to be on the lead line between the kid and the animal. Even that was risky in my opinion, especially with horses and cattle.