You gotta do, what you gotta do

It is very regional. In PA, I could sell well-bred, horned, dairy does all day and get a good price and good homes for them.

Here, in the most rural county in Arkansas, and for a hundred miles in any direction, I will barely get whatever the going price at the buying station is. And she'll live as a "scrub" goat. Which for high-milking lines can be a death sentence.

As it stands, the next 3 doelings that are born here are spoken for. Every buyer wants them disbudded, and they will have premium care for the rest of their lives. A good home with good care, and honestly, a good price, is important to me. To the degree that I'll give up the price to get them a good home, but they're getting none of it with horns unless I get a buyer from far out of my area..

Speaking of which, Caliann, if you want a beautiful, horned Nubian doeling I should be able to hook you up next year

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A ship in the harbor may be safe, but that's not what ships are built for

I use to let buyers decide if they wanted me to disbud or not.. not anymore.. I am a 100% anti horns (on diary goats)
I no longer try to sway folks to the disbudding side.. I've decided that there are LOTS of nubians in the world.. until money is exchanged and papers signed they are still my goats and I like my goats disbudded... so that's the ONLY way kids leave my farm.. (with wee holes burnt into their heads)... I haven't lost any sales.. that I know of, due to the lack of horns.. if someone has their hearts set on their new nubians having horns.. I'm sure there are other breeders, who will be happy to leave them.

susie, mo ozarks

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"My darling girl, when are you going to understand that "normal" is not necessarily a virtue? It rather denotes a lack of courage."
http://www.agesagoacresnubians.com/

Yeah, getting those scrapie tags hung in things and ripping an ear is going to sting. But _not_ doing it is illegal, now, if you're selling a goat. LOL I had my ears pierced as a teen and it wasn't that bad but hate injections. I would never have the nerve to get a tattoo and don't tattoo my animals either.

This disbudding debate is getting to the point of humans discussing/defending the need to get/not get circumcised. I see both sides of the coin. I disbud my dairy and leave the meat goats horned.

What I do see however, is those that don't disbud are more likely to jump on the bandwagon and criticize those who do than the other way around. It's almost like they're trying to be apologetic for not doing it themselves and get riled up about it in the process.

Simply do what you choose. It's like TV shows. I like one, you like the other but I'm not going to criticize you for watching yours.

Unless a person is vegan,vegetarian, or some other type of meat/milk objecter there's really no way we can speak passionately for or against it. If we have ANY kind of animal produced food in our freezer we're involved in animal cruelty.

I challenge anyone who's against it to spend 10 minutes at their local slaughter house and see if the killer gives a local before they shoot them in the head! Think about this when you're in the freezer section buying meat or milk next time!!!!

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Francismilker

"The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much" James 5:16

CaliAnn, I love your passion, and your arguments are genuinely persuasive. You make me LOL even though I don't totally agree with you. Your knowledge astonishes and humbles me.

We are all the product of our experiences. Having gone through the horror of finding one of my Shetland sheep dead in the water trough, I was forever marked. However that animal jumped halfway into the water trough wedging his horns in the field fence right at the top of the metal trough, I will never know. It was dreadfully obvious that he had fought mightily but had finally lost the battle to keep his nose out of the water. I had to call a friend to come help me extract him because of the way he was wedged - half in, half out of the water trough with his horns stuck firmly in the fence wire. If you've ever had to struggle with that kind of dead weight... well, talk about abhorrent and sick to my stomach.

I started with having the vet do my first disbud under anesthesia. That caused some trouble with mom rejecting the baby for several hours, and we had scurs. Then for the next few years, I had friends who would do it while I sat in the pickup with the radio going. Year before last, my breeder friend commented that the structure of the goat head is completely different than a human head, which we tend to want to compare to. How many humans do you know who back up 10 feet then run headlong into another human's head, or a fence, or a building wall? Except for Boxers, we'd put those people into the protective custody of a mental health facility!

That made a big difference in my ability to stomach the process. It sure helped explain why kids are so completely normal right after the burn. Heck, if you burned a human head like that you'd have a blubbering heap of humanity crying and begging for pain meds. Sorry, but their anatomy is different than ours, so straight across comparisons aren't really valid IMHO.

No, I do not enjoy burning our babies cute little heads. But watching how they jump around, I know I am at least reducing the opportunity for another freak accident. In our region, it's also true that horned goats are cheap brush goats, so there is the marketing factor in addition to the sad reality of a lower standard of care for non-pet goats.

In over 25 years of having a variety of breeds of sheep and goats, I've never lost a hornless animal to entanglement in the fence or feeder.

Anita from Idaho
Dan-Ani Pygmy Goats
www.gndt.net/dan-ani

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Anita Crafton ~ Dan-Ani Pygmy Goats ~ Hansen, Idaho

lol!!

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Anita Crafton ~ Dan-Ani Pygmy Goats ~ Hansen, Idaho

francismilker, this is why I do not send my animals to the processor, but instead do all slaughtering and butchering myself. Also, I do not shoot them, as studies have shown (studies where they measures pain waves, brain activity, and consciousness) that shooting in the head is the second most agonizing way for an animal to die. The MOST agonizing way for an animal to die was to be stunned first, THEN shot or electrocuted. The least painful way for an animal to die was from blood loss, or the kosher/halil method.

And honestly, the "we like horns" people have gotten PLENTY of flack from the disbudding people through the years. Just go read the yearly "Great Horn Debates" to see the level of insults that were allowed to remain in those threads. ~grinz~ Ask anyone who does not disbud how they have been treated by those who do. Heck, I *still* get it during kidding season at the local goat club. I must be an uncaring, inhumane MONSTER not to inflict burning agony on my baby goats for their own safety!!

Funny, I got the SAME arguments from other mothers when they found out that I didn't circumcise my sons. I must hate my children and want them to lead miserable lives as bachelors, never being able to get a girlfriend or wife, because I didn't mutilate their wee-wees.

**************************************

When a dog vomits, they just upchuck, sniff, and walk on. When I vomit, I spend ten minutes sitting on the edge of the bathtub panting. If my horse knocks herself in the leg, she just limps for a few steps and then acts normally. If I hit myself in the shin, I say things I am not supposed to say in polite company, for about five minutes straight. When a parrot is deathly ill from an upper respiratory infection, it will act perfectly normal, right up until about an hour or two before it drops dead right off its perch.

My middle son, when he was 2 1/2 years old, tossed himself down a flight of concrete steps, got up, giggled and ran off. I had to chase him down and catch him, and then we went straight to the hospital. 6 stitches, a nice talk with the child protective services lady who wanted to make sure I wasn't beating my child, and a night in the hospital to watch for complications of concussion later, and we were back home. I guess because he got up, giggled, and went running off playing that it must not have hurt and he wasn't injured, right?

Animals, children, and especially young animals, do not EXPRESS pain and discomfort like we do...but that doesn't mean that they don't FEEL it, or that it is not uncomfortable to them afterwards.

I can understand people who honestly BELIEVE that they are doing their goats a favor with this practice, that they continue doing it. I can feel that they are misinformed, have been subject to many years and people feeding them the myths surrounding it, had a bad experience themselves which reinforced these beliefs, etc. However, I REALLY wish people would *stop* pretending that it doesn't hurt.

Here, some studies on it:

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00001/art00007

Local anesthesia doesn't help:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...68159109000045

And I wish people would stop pretending that there are not risks associated with it.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...169.2005.36578

And guess what? Pain and stress effects health and immune response:

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&...page&q&f=false

We all need baby kids with suppressed immune systems, right?

~sighs~ Yeah, I get this way during this time of year. I also know that the "Help! My kid is sick!" threads are about to come up, with sick and dying kids who all got disbudded a day or two before. And because I am supposed to be kind and understanding, I can't say anything that I want to say, such as, "Well, stop killing kids by burning holes in their head!" No, instead, I say, "So sorry for your loss."

And all of you pro-disbudding folks will go, "There, there, there...no, it wasn't the disbudding that caused those obviously damaged neurological responses. It must have been something else. Kids die sometimes. Go disbud the rest of your kids, so they will bring more money and have good homes."

Dead kids don't get good homes. Dead kids don't bring in any money. No, they just get the joy of being tortured, then sick from it, and then dying. A shrt life, and not a very joyful one.

Yes, I feel really strongly on this issue. As I said, if I win the lottery, ya'll will know it, because I will put a LOT of money into raising public outcry over this practice. If I throw 10 or 20 million dollars at it, after all, Soccer Moms will be picketing Farmer's Markets demanding an end to the practice.

And if, suddenly, ya'll's markets were telling you that there was no way they would risk the bad publicity by buying disbudded kids, would ya'll stop it?

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Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

would I stop disbudding based on public opinion? nope...if the day ever comes in this country, where I am forced to leave horns on my kids...well that will be the last breeding season for this farm...I will not have horned goats...nor will I ever change my mind on the issue..got a hunch I feel as strong in my belief as you do.. I however don't want to FORCE/Shame you into burning off your kid's horns.. to be honest.. I don't care what any other breeder does with their own goats.. to each their own..

As for foreskins..pretty much feel the same way.. we are as anti-foreskin in our home as we are anti-horns LOL....my husband and son both have hacked/wacked upon weewees...and are HAPPY about it...just asked them both LOL.(hubby's exact words.. "NO!!! I have not missed it for a second! I'm glad my mom had it done when I was a newborn OR I'd be having it done as an adult!!!"...Daughter Jess, says she would never have married her hubby, if his mother hadn't done his...she was grossed out by the idea of intact..and horrors of horrors...I actually helped Zade's (the grandbaby) doctor while she hacked away on his, this summer... I held him down.

Now, the part about dead/dying kids.. I can't help but wonder about all the dead kids you speak of ??? sorry, don't believe it.. I disbud at the very least 40 kids each spring...never had one die yet...no infections...no issues at all..never had one that didn't instantly run off playing as soon as I am done and set them down...never had one not eat, no one has ever acted off at all...I think we'll shoot videos this year of disbudding days...maybe I just have extra tough kids??? don't think so LOL.. want to get something outlawed??? how about tattoos??? the nubian kids HATE tattooing.. scream themselves hoarse..


susie mo ozarks

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"My darling girl, when are you going to understand that "normal" is not necessarily a virtue? It rather denotes a lack of courage."
http://www.agesagoacresnubians.com/

Calian, your explanation on the first page read JUST like how I write my explanation for not circumcising my sons.

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Jessica
Sweet Peas Farm
Facebook Page

My kids (human and goat) get sicker from the vaccinations than the goat kids do from reaction to the disbudding. As a matter of fact, I make sure the vaccines are given days prior to the disbudding so they will get over the being sick from them, I haven't had nearly the trouble now with them being ill. I would like to know how many kids got their vaccines the samer time as disbudding?

I am not saying it doesn't hurt. I am not saying it doesn't affect them adversely. So do vaccines and so does castrating but I don't see people calling me terrible because of them. If I hadn't vaccinated my human kids I would have been in trouble that way.

Sure, if my local market would tell me they didn't want them disbudded, I would leave the horns on their head. Like I said, I give the buyer the option. I never said I enjoy doing it, I just said it was a necessary evil for the local market, just like vaccinations and the scrapie tag. Are you going to stop giving vaccines, not tattoo, not neuter, and not apply the tag?

Personally, I think circumcision is better equated with castrating. Do you castrate? Why?

Susie, this year I will mark the dead-kids-from-disbudding threads for you. Instead of "So sorry for your loss", I will instead say, "So sorry for your loss. Susie, here is one." Otherwise, I am going to spend several hours going through last years threads tracking them down, and possibly days going through previous years' threads. You can argue with me in PM about how it *could have* been caused by this, that or the other, and I will throw back symptoms of encephalitis caused by disbudding, and ask you where these don't match up...and in the end, we'll agree to disagree.

Carol, castration causes a cease of *function*. Both circumcision and disbudding are cosmetic. Cosmetic alterations can (and often do) damage function, but they do not CEASE function. An African lady who has had her neck stretch can still turn her head. A Polynesian lady who has had her teeth sharpened can still eat. Likewise, genital mutilation ( both in male and female forms) does not mean that the recipient cannot have sex or that they are sterile. They still *function*, but there is damage.

Castration would be better equated to vasectomies, tubal ligation, or hysterectomies, rather than circumcision. I have had a tubal ligation. I have known people that have had vasectomies. They are painful procedures done for a purpose: to control reproduction.

Which is why I use a local anesthesia when doing one. Do you?

As for vaccinations, tattoos, tagging, etc., I have had all of those applied to myself and am aware of the pain levels. Yes, I have been badly burned as well. The studies done that measure pain levels in baby goats from disbudding equal my experiences with bad burns. Several hours of "Ouch, ouch, OUCH!", followed by several days "Oh ouch! Shouldn't have bumped that!" Of course, people don't run baby goat heads under cold water for a half an hour to help relieve the pain either, nor apply burn ointment, or all of the other things that we do for ourselves.

I have had shots. I know how much they hurt and how long the pain lasts (seconds). In the Army, they would line us up and we'd go through "vaccination stations", and come out the other end with multiple holes in both arms.

There are PROVEN medical benefits to vaccinations.

I have tattoos. I have had my ears pierced as an adult. I know what these things feel like and the level of pain experienced. as well as how long the discomfort lasts. (Minutes, actually) I tattoo my goats because I know, from personal experience, that it is less painful than piercing. Since I tattoo, I don't have to use tags.

Both serve a REAL purpose, to track the animal and to show that the animal is really THIS animal. Unfortunately, animals don't wear clothes or have pockets. Else we would just issue them SS numbers and photo I.D.'s. The tattoo and/or tag serves the same purpose as our SS numbers and photo I.D.'s

Please show me ANY scientific study (NOT personal experience. Personal experience falls under he "Accidents Happen" clause. I still use a knife to dice potatoes, even though personal experience says I should get rid of all of the knives anywhere in my home. I have cut myself with more than one of them while chopping potatoes throughout my life, and I know of people who were murdered with them.) that concludes that disbudded or dehorned goat herds experience less injury or fatalities to either goats or handlers than horned herds? Just one study that concludes that disbudded or dehorned goats, overall, are "safer" to themselves and/or others than horned goats?

There are plenty of studies out there on this subject, especially in Europe. Check out the German studies on it. So it is not that the science is LACKING on this issue. It is there.

And if there is not a proven, scientific reason to do this, and there is no real purpose for it....then what is the purpose of doing it?

Answer: Money and fashion. Money, because markets are wanting this. Fashion, because shows demand it. They are even tied up in one another. Disbudding is like a designer label....to show people who wouldn't know quality if it came up and bit them that the product is good. (Whether or not it actually IS.) You can't enter a beauty contest without the proper make-up, clothing, or wearing those designed-by-Torquemada torture devices strapped on to your feet that they so innocently call "high heels". (How many broken ankles, strained knees, and messed up tendons and ligaments can be laid at the...ahem..."feet" of THAT fashion?) Likewise, you can't enter a dairy goat show without having disbudded/dehorned goats.

If the only reason one is doing it for is the market, then it IS done for "fashion". Just like people docked horses tails, or cropped dog ears.

And I believe that fashion can be changed. It does, after all, change yearly in the clothing world, does it not?

Now, for people that BELIEVE that they are "doing the right thing" for their goats, in spite of scientific proof to the contrary? Well, there have been folks throughout the centuries who did awful things to people and animals in the firmly held, never-to-be-changed belief that they were "doing the right thing". I don't think they are evil; just misguided and tenacious.

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Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

Well you can put me in the wee-wee whacker group too. My Uncle when I was pregnant told me that if I had a son I should circumcise him. He was not done as an infant and as an adult the foreskin tightened and would not retract and he had to have the procedure done as an adult, he said the pain was beyond awful. So I had my son's whacked as a newborn and he can't miss what he didn't remember, nor did I have to teach him to pull it back and clean it out and such. Young boys are not the most fastidious of creatures.

Pixie died due to horns, I loved that goat and she was only three. I am not scared of horns, have not been gored, nor did she or my other horned goats gore anyone. But they can hurt or kill themselves, I cannot be there 24/7 to make sure no one gets stuck in fencing. Sticks of shame do not stay on all the time.

Never had a kid die from disbudding, but had one I sold maybe die from castrating, I am still going to castrate. No one wants a buck as a 4H prospect/pet.

I say to each his own, sell to your maket and your ways. Whether that gains you sales or loses you sales it is your animals and your way. Not disbudding has cost me to lose money and sell for less, not happening anymore.
Pixie who came to me horned taught me you can use sticks of shame, you can have bolt cutters at the ready but your goat can still suffer trauma, and you fight for her life for 5 days poking and sticking her with needles, cramming things down her throat and in the end you have a large vet bill, regret and no goat.

I feed grass hay and alfalfa pellets, I rarely worm due to my area. You feed mixed hay only and worm every other month. I disbud and don't tattoo, you do not disbud and do tattoo. Who is to say one way is better then the other? As long as we have healthy goats and do things the way we found that works for ourselves and our market, who is to say one way is better or more "right" then the other?

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You may not copy my posts or pictures without my consent on this board or any other.

~giggles~ To lighten this thread, and because something that thaiblue said reminded me of it, a letter to Miss Manners, the Queen of all things polite and civilized:

Dear Miss Manners,

Who says there is a right way and a wrong way to do things?

Gentle Reader,

Miss Manners does; do you want to make something of it?

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Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

I disbud and always will disbud because I am not re-fencing my entire place and getting new equipment to fit horned goats. I have declined purchasing goats because of horns. I have had horned sheep and been badly hurt when one accidentally hit my knee. I also keep my sheep and goats together, and I will not allow the goats (who are already bossy to the sheep) to have weapons with which to injure the sheep.

I had two buck kids last year who went off playing and butting heads AS SOON as I put them down, and obviously they were fine. I also castrate my male animals and I dock my sheep. Do I think disbudding is pain free? Probably not, but I don't think it equates to torture. I'd rather give a goat a minute of discomfort than take the risk that it can't be sold, it'll end up caught in a fence, or something else.

If I had Boers, I wouldn't disbud because their horns aren't as crazy as dairy goat horns. I wouldn't own horned cattle either. And definitely no more horned sheep.


So CaliannG, you tagged your ear in the cartilage with a livestock tag? How'd that go? And you tattood yourself with a livestock tatooer?

I don't castrate. All my bucklings sell intact, so I have no need. But I have been present at several castrations and I distinctly remember the buckling who had anesthetic and how he screamed and screamed then wouldn't eat for 3 days from the shock. Expected him to die, but he didn't. I have not had any kids who weren't acting normally by the time I got home from disbudding. But that's just my personal experience so doesn't count.

I wish I could research, dialup just won't download very well, so it will have to wait. Like you, it would take a long time finding all the info you require. You can find studies supporting everything somewhere, so I guarantee I can find some... Even if I didn't agree with them.

And, if personal experience counts for nothing in my argument, then "your" vaccines, tattoos, and ear piercings, etc, count for nothing, either. _I_ had a vaccination that swelled my arm for over a week and made me very ill. But that's my experience. Studies show an increased incidence of cancer in areas of vaccination in animals and there is starting to be a real controversy over whether we need to be pumping this into our animals year after year. The ink used for animal tattoos is different ink. Until _I_ experience something that changes my previous beliefs, I will keep doing what I am doing. But my opinion doesn't count.

Your studies should tell you that third degree burns may throw the system in shock, but they kill nerve endings. The burn no longer hurts, the flesh beneath it can, but burn cream doesn't ease what's already dead. (BTW, the vet does apply a cream, though, in case any side area still hurts)

Medical studies are found in plenty showing _why_ circumcision is medically supported, but you do not agree with them. No, it is not always cosmetic.

There are plenty of studies arguing against "elective" vasectomies and tubal ligations. Seems those didn't affect your decision?

I don't see how a poor goat walking around with her horns broken into the quick from getting them hung in things and breaking them off is so much kinder seeming to you than disbudding. I have ripped a fingernail off and it hurt worse for longer than when I burned the same finger. But, that's just my personal experience so counts for diddly.

Just because your research leads you to a conclusion doesn't always mean it's the only way to do things. And it doesn't mean your way is the only way. It means you made a decision based on your research and your personal experience and beliefs and I respect that. I just wish people afforded me the same respect. But that's just my personal feeling and belief. Doesn't count for diddly, right?

ETA And my belief is that I would fight tooth and nail for your right to not disbud. It is your belief and you feel strongly about it. Just as I do believe I am doing my best by my goats.

I wasn't going to say anything more on this subject.. but this part of your post..made me realize I wasn't the only one who got the impression that MY personal experiences and beliefs were being totally discounted... I still stand by my PERSONAL EXPERICENCES>>> I have ***NEVER*** Had dead/dying kids after disbudding.. never been on this board crying about dead kids from disbudding... (can't help but be pretty darn sure I'm not the ONLY one, whose kids remain happy & healthy after disbudding???) ... I've got to admit.. in all the years I've been on this forum.. I've never NOTICED all the dead-kids-from-disbudding threads... maybe an occasional dead kid from a BAD disbudding.. (I happened to have had an EXCELLENT disbudding teacher.. it does make a difference)..

Caliann... please save yourself the time of going back thru last year's threads.. I don't have the time nor desire to argue with you about this issue (non-issue in my PERSONAL opinion).. either on here or in PM's... Too busy for such shenanigans.. kidding season begins in less then 4 weeks, time to get my seeds started, grandbaby to play with.. this year you'll have to find someone else to fight it out with

(QUOTE)
maybe, just maybe Susie, this year I will mark the dead-kids-from-disbudding threads for you. Instead of "So sorry for your loss", I will instead say, "So sorry for your loss. Susie, here is one." Otherwise, I am going to spend several hours going through last years threads tracking them down, and possibly days going through previous years' threads. You can argue with me in PM about how it *could have* been caused by this, that or the other, and I will throw back symptoms of encephalitis caused by disbudding, and ask you where these don't match up...and in the end, we'll agree to disagree.

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"My darling girl, when are you going to understand that "normal" is not necessarily a virtue? It rather denotes a lack of courage."
http://www.agesagoacresnubians.com/

I, too, don't care to argue. I really respect Caliann _and_ her advice and opinions. I also respect my vets'. And I really do my best to get all the information I can before making decisions and not just base things off the first thing I read off the internet. We all know they can't put it on the internet if it's not true!