You gotta do, what you gotta do

I don't undersand what you mean. Could you explain a bit?

The first reason I like all the goats with no horns is that my DH is disabled and although he is of no help to me in the barn, he still tries. Its just alot safer for him. I also like the look of dairy goats w/o horns. Meat goats look fine with horns to me. Guess its what you're used to.
All the dairy goats shown are disbudded. Seems all the boer goats shown have horns.
And once...I saw a goat that was kept in a chain link enclosure. He got a horn stuck and pulled it off in the fence. It was a bloody, sore exposed nub. Think horse that has pulled off a hoof, his bloody foot is still there, only the protective outside is gone : (
Then of course I think you're best off to go all one way or the other. I'd hate to have horned goats in with my hornless goats, they get crabby enough anyway : ) BTW I made an appointment with our vet who specializes in goats. She did my boer babies before I got them. And she does a beautiful job.

I mean people talk about pulling out the horn bud after burning. Instead of burning could you use a local anesthetic, cut a little slit, and pull it out that way?

You can't pop it out, it will cause a hole in their head and lots of bleeding. Dehorning is done by a vet and not very pretty.
Also we do it really early before the buds even pop out, hurts less and is over quickly.

I don't give a local, I would like to but no clue what to use and I heard sticking a needle in their head hurts a lot. I do give Banamine to ones who do not get disbudded by a week old.

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Yeah, I don't agree with that practice either.

I didn't mean to pick on you, I was just saying that we do lots of things to help our kids, humans and goats, that mihgt hurt but be helpful in the long run. But you can't compare burning off horns to giving a vaccination. Just isn't the same, apples to apples and all that.

I'm sure there are instances where a goat has gotten stuck, but I bet I could find more that haven't. Cutting off all horns because of something that MIGHT happen just seems like overkill. I'm not going to cut off my arm to keep it from getting stuck in the combine, youknowwhatI'msaying?

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The big problem is bleeding and needing to cauterize the wound anyway.

Squeaky, the vet can do the procedure to cut out the horn CAPS. (Not the buds, but the caps that the horns grow from.) It is a bit expensive though, although it is done with a local and it is painless, ALSO there are no scurs from it.

Spike, I realize that there are sites that give folks the propaganda about disbudding, and tell people how they are doing "the right thing for their goats". They may even believe it; but it is still propaganda. Horned goats do not get themselves into more (or more serious) trouble than disbudded goats...and there are actually NO numbers to back up the claim that disbudded goats are in any way "safer" to themselves or others than horned goats. The ways they get into trouble are simply different.

Had a Boer breeder nearby that decided to disbud one year to attempt to take advantage of the backyard/pet market. He did it two years in a row and then stopped and swore that he'd never make THAT mistake again. Why? Well, he of course kept many replacement does, and the disbudded ones kept committing suicide by hanging themselves in the feeders! The horned goats, of course, could not get their heads in the feeders like that because the horns stopped them. He also had problems with the disbudded does being able to fit their heads through the spaces in his hog panels and sometimes getting stuck. He never had any of his horned goats do that.

So, when it comes to the safety of the goats, disbudding doesn't eliminate problems, it simply gives you a different set of them.

And, as an OT, I didn't have my sons circumcised either. Why would I mutilate their wee-wees and make it so that they lose 55% of the sensation there?

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Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

Amen!!!!

In some areas it is VERY hard to place/sell a goat with horns. Is it better to not disbud and have the kid end up in the freezer because no one wanted him, or put him through a short period of pain but then he ends up going to a home where he lives a long life? Maybe sometimes it is the best thing for the goat in the long run.

Not to fight fire with fire, but I'm guessing some people could argure the same thing about castrating/whethering. Yes it could be beneficial in some aspects. Like finding the animal a home. Making meat taste better. But I'm sure it really doesn't feel too great. And don't whethers have a higher risk of urinary calculi?

OT I know, but just a point to make. There are pros and cons.

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Maybe so, but I think it is a perception thing. People are conditioned to think that animals with horns are dangerous. I think if horned animals were marketed correctly, we would see a reversal of the de-horning practice.

For so long, declawing cats was considered normal. Now, it is frowned upon. Many breeds of dogs routinely had their tails chopped off and their ears cropped, and for what? That practice has declined, as well.

Castrating, or neutering, male animals isn't the same thing, either. As keepers of animals, it is our responsibility to control reproduction.

I will market my goats in such a way that people will be proud to shun the cruelty and disfiguring of goats.

If an animal is aggressive, it has no place being kept in the proximity of children, horns or not. I see that as a common concern; what about the safety of my kids? My answer to that is don't have your kids around an animal whose behavior you question.

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That's like saying that if you fence properly, your bucks won't breed the girls, therefore, castration is disfiguring and cruel. I would prefer not to disbud, but they do get numbing shots before disbudding, It stinks and they yell about being held still but are fine when released. No one here gives a shot before putting the castration bands on and I have had them upset for quite some time..

I wouldn't have kids around an animal I didn't think was safe. That has nothing to do with disbudding. And, when the working dogs had ears and tails cropped, it was to keep whatever they were bred to work with from being able to grab them by those parts. Do I like cropping? No. Do I condemn it. No. It had a good purpose at one time.

I had a doe who broke her horns off getting her head in fences. I have never had a disbudded doe get stuck anywhere

We can agree to disagree, but if disbudding is what buyers want, they will go get goats elsewhere rather than take one with horns, so when I take the deposit on the kids, if they say :no horns", they get no horns and I don't argue. But it really irks me when someone sounds like I don't care for my goats because I am cruel and disfigure them for no good reason. I did my research and had my experiences and made up my mind.

Well, hold on there now killer.
I'm on the other side of that fence and I don't think that people worry ENOUGH, and certainly not in the right way.

Animals ARE dangerous, and let's not lose sight of that fact. And they don't need to be aggressive. My horse is very gentle and my son is allowed no where near her unless I am holding him, and my daughter only with supervision. Do I worry about her hurting them on purpose? No, she loves children, but she still weighs a thousand pounds.

Erik Wether has a scur that is a mini-horn. We have ALL gotten at least one bruise from it, short and round and dull though it is. He doesn't need to be being mean or agressive. he just has to be forgetful, or sometimes just there.

And "animal whose behavior you question" includes any young one.
It is not feasible for me to only buy older milk goats, and I think that's true for most of us. My bottle babies start in the house and get lots and lots of attention from my kids - which is a good thing. they are very happy, social goats who live good lives full of care and trust.
But I think that we can all see that having a young, bouncy, unpredictable (ALL babies are unpredictable) animal with spikes coming out of it's head in my house and around toddlers is a really bad idea.

And we do have to take quality of life into account with all of it. I don't like declawing cats, debarking dogs or disbudding kids (although my personal opinion is that it is not on the same level as the previous 2) but if it makes the difference between an animal having a long life full of care or being neglected, given away or put down - so be it.
In my area, newbie little me who's family has not been here for a hundred years is not convincing anyone that horned goats are anything other then scrubs.
Registered show animals are disbudded so therefore if my animals were of any quality they'd be disbudded. Period, end of story.

So, yes, for my kid's safety, bottle babies have to be disbudded (by a vet, with anesthetic), or else they can't be bottle babies in the house, and then the backyard, where they can grow up part of the family. And any doeling that I want to sell to a good home also has to be, or I am not getting a good home for her.
Wethers, who get sold as brush or meat goats and get to be raised by momma don't get disbudded. There is not a safety issue as those little spikes aren't in my house and around my children and there's not a quality of life issue as no matter what, they are going to spend a year eating brush and hay, a month eating grain and then taking a ride.

If you don't want to disbud, as far as I'm concerned, you don't need a reason and you don't have to justify it. But saying that reasons for other people don't exist is going a bit too far.

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It used to be that the docking of horse's tails was considered a common and acceptable practice, and if you loved your horse, and wanted it to end up in a good stable and not as some poor carter's horse, then you docked that tail! As no DECENT stable would have a horse with a full tail.

Even though having a docked tail was a painful procedure and made the horse miserable throughout its life, as it couldn't brush flies and midges away.

Used to be that if you wanted your Great Dane or Doberman to go to a GOOD home, you cut those ears! After all, you couldn't SHOW them without cropped ears. And everyone rationalized it by saying cropping the ears prevented ear infections. (It doesn't, it actually increases them.) Now, even South Africa banns the practice, as well as every European country.

It used to be that docking the tails of dogs was considered normal. If you didn't dock your dog's tail, you were an uncaring, inhumane owner. After all, EVERYONE knew that docking the tail prevented rabies! Later on, tail docking was rationalized by the belief that if the dog's tail wasn't docked, the dog would injure it by beating it to smithereens while wagging it. Sound silly? Perhaps because it is. Tail docking in dogs is also banned in many, many countries.

A decade ago, declawing indoor cats was a normal practice. I *have* a 12 year old cat that was declawed. Humans came up with many rationalizations of why this practice was good. Now, of course, you would be considered a selfish, uncaring person if you got your kitty's toes amputated for your own convenience.

The practice of disbudding and dehorning goats came about when the upper classes started keeping, breeding, and showing pedigreed dairy goats. Most specifically, upper class *ladies* started showing and breeding them, and who wants a goat's horns to catch on an expensive gown or suit while showing? As in many things, the middle classes, wishing to copy the upper classes, started disbudding and dehorning THEIR dairy goats as well, until it became a common practice. Now, of course, you would get really funny looks if you attempted to show your goat while dressed in a satin gown, but the practice still persists, and is rationalized by the people that do it.

However, more and more people are finding the practice unnecessary, inhumane, and abhorrent. Several countries have already banned the practice, and more are following suit. It will eventually go the way of other painful and stupid torments that we have visited upon our animals. You can either be one of the people that recognize this and stop doing it BEFORE it simply becomes banned, or you can be one of the people that clings to it right up to the point that it is made illegal.

~grinz~ Ya'll will know if I ever win a big lottery...because one of the first things I will do is hire a really good advertising agency. After all, the raising of emotion can work both ways...and you television will be peppered with "Public Awareness" commercials covering disease testing in dairy animals (Commercial milk, it does a body terrible. Insist upon disease testing in commercial herds for Johnne's and CL! It's for the children!) and inhumane disbudding practices (Horns are beautiful! Help stop this terrible, torturous practice! Brought to you by "Horns are Humane".).

So if you ever see commercials like this on your RFDTV or Discovery Channel, you can get on here and say, "Caliann! You won the lottery and didn't tell us!"

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Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

When you no longer castrate, then you can look down on me for disbudding. Castration causes more health problems than disbudding, is also disfiguring and is performed so the owner doesn't have to go through the trouble to prevent unwanted breeding.

I used to work at a small cow dairy and disbudding calves was by far the worst part of the job. Actually, I'll admit now that as often as I could, I would come up with one excuse or another why I "couldn't" do it, and the owner would do it instead . He didn't mind so much, had been doing it for years and was always wanting to spend more time in the barn anyway.

When I had goats some of the first kids were disbudded, but most were not. Ultimately I decided not to disbud for several reasons. If and when I have dairy goats again, I am 99.9% sure they will be horned. Contrary to what I expected, when I sold all of them I did not have trouble selling the horned does. In fact I found buyers that PREFERRED horned does for their small homesteads. I am not talking highest quality registered stock here, but they were healthy does from decent milking goats. I got $200 each for the first year unbred does, with or without horns.

I have to call myself a hypocrite, too, I guess. People who have their babies ears pierced are someone I look down on because they are torturing the poor baby for no reason (not like you can find them a better home because of it).

Many people consider having children to do chores as child labor and cruel. But children have always done chores! It's what is consider necessary to have them accepted. And my kids sulked about chores a lot longer than any goat kid ever has about disbudding.

Half of my goats have their horns. I have been injured by those horns, but I actually kind of like them anyway. But I really see red when I am accused of following "fashion" when doing something I honestly believe may be safer for an animal and myself,

I can get $125 for a disbudded unbred doe, $50 for one with horns (From CAE- closed herd)

In some of my kids, I get the best of both worlds. Because half of my girls are polled No horns and no disbudding, just wish it wasn't 50/50 with the babies. I would be THRILLED if all of my babies were polled!

I sit on the fence and don't lean too much either way. I personally think its a matter of personal preference whether to have horns or not. I have a mixed herd, one with horns and two without. Onyx may be queen bee of the herd, but when it comes to me, or ANY human, she knows her place. We don't have fence problems, because we use multi-strand electric.
I was just throwing something out there to see what you all had to say about it. Thats the thing about raising livestock, everybody has their own management practices because it is what works for THEM.

My goats and kids? The registered kids, will need disbudded, especially if the buyer would want to show. Face it, livestock has to sell. The mixed breeds that will most likely be freezer stock, they can have all the horns they want.

What about branding? Tattooing? Tagging? Notching? Yet again, it probably doesn't feel good, but we do it. It has its benefits, but it probably has a bit of an ouch to it. I was one of the kids who had my ears pierced at 1 1/2 years old. Would I do it again? No. I'm a wuss. Do I remember it, or the pain of the act, or my ears hurting afterwards? No.

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