You gotta do, what you gotta do

I do it for a few reasons:

I sell to my market, who either is scared of horns, have kids eye level showing them in 4H and etc.

I also have had a goats with horns one who got stuck in the fence when she was in heat. Now if it was very hot out with no shade and I was at work all day she could have died, thankfully I caught her often. I used to put the stick of shame across her horns when she was in heat to avoid this. One stuck goat is a signal for the rest to bash you. But I did not always catch her heat cycle right away and she did get stuck a few times. Her trying to pull herself back out caused her to damage a nerve in her neck which lead to her death.

I have owned other horns goats, one was part Boer and hers curled back, dairy tend to go up or up and out. I have been poked in the butt while hoof trimming, been hit by a horned goat aiming for the goat near my leg and honestly they never hit me with their horns but the top of their head like any other goat. I have no fear of horns, but like I said I sell to my market and I do not want to lose another goat to some weird accident like my poor Pixie.

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Thanks for the reminder. I need to buy/make one of those kid holding boxes for disbudding. Last year, DD was my kid holding box. Aside from doing a crappy job, we were probably squeaky close to a mishap that would have resulted in an ER trip and a lifelong scar. I wouldn't want that for my beautiful girl.

If people feel it is for safety reasons, I wonder if they file down the teeth of all their dogs, too.

I understand selling to market, though. If people around you won't buy horned goats, well I guess you either have to keep them all, eat them all or disbud them.

I am seeing a newer market of those who specifically seek out goats that have not been disbudded by those concerned with what they consider inhumane treatment. Don't know if that will catch on or not.

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I'm in the horns camp simply because I prefer not to chop bits off my animals. (Says she with a 3 legged dog and castrated male animals )

To me it's on the same spectrum as de-barking dogs, declawing cats and clipping chickens beaks - for human convenience. In learning about goat care over the last 18months I have been stabbed with hoof shears, had my toes trampled, got my finger bitten and was kicked in the forehead when I first milked, but no injuries from horns yet. I figure if I can mind my safety and handle a stroppy young horse, I can handle a horned goat. And my neighbours kids play with my goats.
I dont imagine I'll feel a need to disbud in order to show even if and when I breed up to top quality stock. If it holds back my breeding programme, so be it.
My two pence.

Ani, I don't know if your New Zealand shows, and registries, have the same rules, so it may not be an issue there. You might check with your registries.

I know that in several countries in the EU, it is *illegal* to disbud/dehorn goats without a medical reason. It is considered animal cruelty. Of course, in those countries, they allow horned goats to be shown, no matter what the breed.

So, you might check...it may not even be an issue there.

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Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

I read this after the DH ask me why I have my almost 4 mth old Nigerian Dwarf buck (with horns) inside in my lap... My reply was "Because when he is big I want him to love me and not hit me in the rear the way a friends billy did every time she turned around."

It was a good comeback, but it was really because I love that little booger to death and have him spoiled. Same reason he is sleeping in the laundry room with the cats because we are expecting storms.

~grinz~ There is such a market, as well as an ethnic market for meat goats, with horns.

I have never had a kid I wanted sold go unsold because of horns. I use it as a marketing tool, and people who want both self-sufficiency, AND are into humane treatment of animals, travel long distances to buy my kids.

You have to remember that when it comes to homesteading, about half of the homesteaders or seriously conservative types, but the other half are back-to-the-land, hippy types. It is the latter that are grateful to find me and my goats.

In the ethnic market, the conservative types are BY THE LETTER, which means that goats intended to be the guest of honor at a festival feast MUST be "perfect, without blemish". Removing the horns is considered a blemish.

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Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

Ahh, the great horn debate!
My goats all came to me disbudded. And, while I hate disbudding, any baby born here that is going to stay and be bottle raised will be done.
My DS is special needs and very wobbly. I just can't take the chance. And it is the goat kids I worry about, with their tiny little straight up horns and general babyness. I wouldn't stress over a grown up goat with horns - less chance of accidents. Once DS is bigger, and sturdier on his feet, I'll likely quit disbudding. Not that I disbud, my guys came that way, and there's a local vet who does it with anesthetic if I ever need it done.

Earthkitty, about the dogs, no, but I do spend HUGE amounts of time training them to be very, very tolerant of a little person who WILL fall on them. Thankfully, with dogs, it is a controllable reaction whether or not they will hurt him, they don't have spikey bits he can impale himself with.
If a dog can not learn that tolerance, it can not live here. And in this area, that pretty much means it can not live, period. Dogs are plentiful and not valued, no one else will want it. Thankfully, we've never come to that. But the dog that wags him over with his rump is an outside dog now.

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Out of the 18 baby goats I raised for a farmer this past spring, all were debudded except one, whose horns grew in so quickly it was too late to do them . He was the sweetest little guy, a total love bug. But no one would buy him because he had horns. In the end the farmer gave him away to a couple who had purchased two other wethers earlier.

I will disbud to make them more marketable, and because the goats I have now are disbudded, and I want an even "playing field." I have seen goats without horns getting the snot plunged out of them by goats with horns. It made me sick to my stomach, but the owners of the herd did not care.

Like others have mentioned, I could not do it myself, and I always felt sorry for them, but they recovered quickly. As in minutes. Some of them frolicked down the path to the goat pen, kicking up their heels and bouncing around almost as soon as they were released.

However, one of the Boer babies here where I live (not my goat) died last week, unexpectedly. There were no outward signs of anything, and no necropsy, but it's being written off as a complication to having been disbudded a week earlier..... to a possible anyurism caused by the disbudding. I've not ever heard of this.... Are anyurisms a real possibility because of disbudding?

I've not head the term "scurs." Is that when little pieces of the horns continue to grow anyway? One of my girls gets that. It's bothersome for her to have this little, wobbly piece of horn from time to time. I cut it off with fingernail clippers. There is no blood, she does not mind it at all, and she is more apt to allow her head to be handled once the loose piece is removed.

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I'm ashamed of the reasoning, but I can't sell them horned. I tried, no takers. I keep goats for milk and I have to breed them to reach that goal. But I can't keep every single baby - although if money were no object I totally would! I don't disbud the meat goats, but the meat customers don't care if they're horned or not. "Are they horned?" is the first question the dairy customers ask.

I have horned goats and have been injured by a horn. But I've also been injured by hooves and I'm not going to cut those off. Mostly I have no problems with the horned goats vs. the disbudded goats. The disbudded girls are well able to hold their own against the horned girls.

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April
Southeast Missouri
Nubians, Boers, Jersey cows and a whole lotta ticks

I have both (horned and disbudded). I have had a HUGE bruise where a horned Boer girl tried to hook another (swinging head around sideways to catch the other goat) but got me instead and I have had to glue skin on another girl that I think got the same treatment. I had another whip her head around and burst a blood vessel on the back of my hand with the horn tip.

I have been smacked hard more by the disbudded Nubian than the horned Nubian. She goes to butting faster than the horned girl, maybe feels more vulnerable?

I have watched the disbudded girl tilting her head way back and trying to scratch an itch that she can't get to because her horns are gone while the one with horns can easily scratch that area.

This year, I will most likely have the kids disbudded. If you have a disbudded kid, it will bring more than double what a horned kid brings. Ones with horns are considered "brush goats" and those are very cheap here.

I Disbud. I guess it is a choice each of us has to make if we are going to have goats. I only got back into goats in 2011, so 2012 was the first year I had to make this decision. I read a lot of info both ways on this issue.
I had a nubian buck with horns once. He knew what they were. He knew how to hook you between the 2 horns. He was mean, but he was not raised right. I guess that influenced my decision. Even does that have horn learn how to use them. They can hurt humans plenty with their hard heads even without horns.
One of the sites I read had a statement at the end thanking you for making the decision to disbud because you were doing a good thing for your goat.
Personally, I do not feel like the process is that hard on the kid. They get over it as soon as it is over. Don't bash me for saying that. If it is done properly, they stop screaming as soon as it is over and they take off in their happy little goat kid way.
I compare it to some of the things we humans do to human kids. Some times they cry and scream when they get things done to them they do not like or feel pain from. But we do it for their good!

These are just my thoughts that I share on this subject.

SPIKE

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All things should be done with COMMON SENSE!
All things should be done with RESPECT!
All things have a PROPER time and place!
And most things should be done in MODERATION!

What about us seriously conservative back-to-the-land, hippy types? Hmmm?

After reading all the articles on disbudding or not, I have reached the same conclusion as most of you goaters. "Which came first, the egg or the chicken"? In other words, your discussion may go into infinity without a perfect concrete answer.
My conclusion is simply "whatever floats your boat is what is BEST for you, Good Day!

Doing things that hurt that are for the benefit or health of a creature is 100% different than causing pain and making something scream just because of a preference.

I'm fairly certain that no one sane burns off any body parts of their human kids. I'm not saying that goats and children are equal, just saying the comparison isn't really valid.


btw, I'm not trying to vilify anyone who thinks differently than I do. My opinion is worth to you what you paid for it.

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I'm nervous about it too. I mean, what if I do it wrong? This is the dehorner I have--here.
Its the producer's pride one from TSC. Any tips on using it? Instructions aren't very good. It says the buds will fall off in 4-6 weeks. How do I know right away if I've done it right? Personally, I think the goats look better with horns. (Especially Alpines--which I have), BUT as previously stated by a few others, its hard to sell a dairy goat with horns. And I gotta sell the babies.

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I've done some reading and found out that the horns actually help the goats deal with extreme summer heat. That would explain why my wether with no horns pants while laying in the shade and has so much trouble with the Florida heat and my wether with horns runs around like a mad thing and never pants at all. I've decided not to disbud and none of the buyers for my kids have ever cared. I think its really just a regional preference.

That one looks too big with a 1" diameter. The X series dehorners have 1/2" or smaller diameters. Not sure how big Alpine horns are, but that would be too big for my Nubians.

If you read this post (#35), then I hope you read all of my post #32 and you did not focus on the one sentence that was quoted.

There are sites with information that feel you may be saving the life of your goat by eliminating the chance of it getting hung in fences. There are people that think this helps stop injury to others, goats and humans.

I agree to disagree on the disbudding issue. But, the above quote seems directed more at me than the issue. It could make me appear to be more of the south end of a north bound donkey than I really am. LOL My comments were made to help others that have decided to disbud deal with any negative feelings they may be having.

I do not condone inflicting pain just because of a preference.
My comments about human kids actually had to do with vaccinations or injections.
And do you think a human male kid enjoys circumcision. It may not be burning off parts, but it is very questionable cutting off of parts! They do not even jump up and run around like nothing happened after the procedure, totally unlike the disbudding of a kid goat!

SPIKE

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All things should be done with COMMON SENSE!
All things should be done with RESPECT!
All things have a PROPER time and place!
And most things should be done in MODERATION!

Ehehmm. Looks like my question got buried. I have been wondering this for a few months now.
And I forgot to ad injecting a local anesthetic before doing it.