Barn cats...how to deal with them?

Toxoplasmosis is a concern, no matter what species. Though as stated, cats in barns is not new. Heck, I qualify for most of the risk factors and probably have T. gondii.

from: http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/154/4/357.full

I probably have T. gondii... considering I qualify for MOST of those risk factors, haha.

Toxoplasmosis matures and is excreted in an infectious form from felines as a primary host, though it can be transmitted by eating infected meat and milk.

http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/9/1...98_article.htm

MOST animals will not have serious issues, just like MOST people don't have serious issues. I would bet many goats are already infected. Many people already are too. The risk to the fetus is when a person aquires infection during pregnancy. In some populations HUGE numbers of people are infected. And, studies shows it may affect behavior of infected animals and humans. Fascinating infection.

http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketsci...human-culture/

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Dona Barski

"Breed the best, eat the rest"

Caprice Acres

French and American Alpines. CAE, Johnes neg herd. Abscess free. LA, DHIR.

That will absolutely do it. Our barn cats poop in the barn only when the ground is frozen or covered in snow. Then - watch out - anywhere with loose material is fair game. Not their first choice, but better than trying to bury poop in snow. There's a big plastic tray you can get at the big-box home improvement stores like Lowes and Home Depot that is sold for mixing mortar. Makes an ideal large litter box for the frozen season. I fill it with compost, dirt, forest floor, etc. Anything dry and loose without too many large chunks. Might make for a two-person chore when the time comes to empty it. I wait till the weekend when DH is home and we carry it out into the woods and dump it.

Really?? So only opinions that are agreed with by all are allowed? I was not nasty to anyone, the question was asked "how to deal with them" I gave my opinion, based on my own experience and research that is how I deal with them?? I did offer an apology knowing that it is not a commonly accepted practice, I just missed some punctuation so obviously it was misconstrued.

I have on SEVERAL occasions had financial loss due to feral cats (which most "barn cats" are) including severe allergic reaction, toxoplasmosis, lepto, bovine TB and large quantities of feed lost due to being used as a cats litter box!! Due some research cats can and DO spread diseases and worms and are vermin! I'm sorry that is not a "politically correct" answer but it most certainly is a true statement. Unless all the cats that have access to your farm are routinely vaccinated and wormed and kept out of livestock areas and feed then they most certainly are a biosecurity hazard and a real threat to yourself, your family and your animals health. If you don't agree that is your prerogative just as it is mine to choose to eliminate this threat in an attempt to keep my farm and family healthy! I am also well within my legal rights to do so, even encouraged by the state inspectors and vet who routinely come here ensure that I am doing all I can to keep my farm verified by them as "TB Free"

Cats are considered a bigger pest than rodents around here. Farmers train their dogs to kill them or shoot them. Better to use mouse traps and if you absolutely have to poison than add cats who are just trouble and bring in diseases.

CrazyFarmGirl, it's hardly an unpopular opinion around here. You are sure to find plenty of others who "despise" cats with you and are all too glad to murder some poor domestic creature who had no choice about being dumped on your road.

If you apologized in your first post - it's because you knew you were wrong. That's why people apologize (notice that I am not)
If you bothered to read more then the title, then you knew the OP was looking for solutions to a behavioral problem and you "advice" was unwarranted.
And if you didn't read more then the title, and thought you'd just jump in with a lead poisoning joke - then you were looking for validation. People generally look for validation when they're feeling guilt or uncertainty.

Trying to justify yourself with strawman arguments after the fact doesn't help your case any.
As a matter of fact, like many of the folks here, my barn cats ARE wormed and vaccinated, as are my dogs (a deadly predator, as attested to by many, many threads here - I don't just wantonly kill those either)
I have never, nor has google search found for me, any massive disease outbreak traced back to cats. Many to rodents, and even sparrows, but not cats. I'm sure it feels good to point the finger at something that isn't you and your management after a bovine TB outbreak, but the numbers don't really back that up. I'm also wondering just how you definitively traced toxo and leptospirosis back to cats as well.
http://www.cdc.gov/leptospirosis/

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A ship in the harbor may be safe, but that's not what ships are built for

Well obviously we have VERY different ideas about this and we will just have to agree to disagree!

Lepto is a bacterial infection that can be tested for and that is what was done and how the vet came to that conclusion.

I did not have a TB outbreak, never said I did, I happen to live in a portion of MI that has had confirmed TB positive cattle and deer herds (which was traced back to deer that were imported from MN) therefore we are heavily tested, inspected and regulated by the state. Please don't assume what you don't know!

I'm not sorry for my opinion and certainly don't think I am wrong, I am however sorry that more people don't understand or like the thought of it. I did read the original post there was no mention of "behavior modification advice" again your assumptions are wrong.

Again you can decide to handle them how ever you choose as can I and I would appreciate that you not make erroneous assumption about myself or other people and how we manage OUR farms. If you do properly care for your cats and keep them to your farm that is great and that's your choice, it is NOT the norm here and therefore we have to take steps to protect ourselves.

Again we just don't agree, that's fine. Your assumptions and lack of facts in your attack of MY decisions and practices are what is uncalled for!

It is okay to dislike cats. It is also okay to dislike dogs, parrots, horses, cows, and goats.

But if you dislike horses, you don't go on a thread where someone is asking for advice to correct behavioral problems in horses and tell people that on your place, all horses are good for is stew.

And if someone is asking for tips on how to correct behavioral problems in their dogs, you don't tell them that a sharp knife or a fast bullet will do the trick, no matter HOW many problems with their neighbor's dogs that you have had.

And Otter is correct in this....there have been no known disease outbreaks in which cats were the host or the carrier that have effected anything except other cats. Cats actually make pretty poor hosts of both virus and bacteria that are transmittable to other species.

Anyone who wishes to say otherwise, I invite to share a link of any disease outbreak in livestock or humans that the main vector or source was found to be cats. Please cite a source. Notice I said "disease outbreak", meaning more than one animal had to have been infected.

~smiles~ And yes, I have looked for studies and scientific articles that observed a single disease outbreak cause by cats that was spread to anything but other cats. If I can't find one, I seriously doubt anyone else is going to have an easy search either.

Cat haters, this is a race! First one to find me a scientific study or scientific article showing the observation of a disease outbreak that effects animals or humans OTHER than cats, but is, nonetheless, hosted or sourced from cats, wins!

On your mark, get set, GO!

Good luck!

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Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

I have it on good authority that cats are deadly to mice, rats and slow moving birds and rabbits.

http://www.messybeast.com/zoonoses.htm

I actually breed cats, and have 8 right now. That doesnt mean I enjoy stray cats running around, or any cats defacating in animal feed or where other animals are likely to ingest something.

Stray cats are not welcome here. I dont need felv/fiv/parasite infected feral critters messing around here.

Although I agree that stray cats can be a problem, and no one wants their pets infected FeLV, I have to say that the link you provided does not show any disease outbreaks, or even possible disease outbreaks, in which the original, or even main, host, is cats.

Ringworm: Not *even* specific to cats. I have had two cases in my life: One I got from my dog and once from the gym. Cats actually have to pick up the fungus from their environment, which could be anything.

Conjunctivitis: Caused by many things in many different animals.

Pasteurella: Is everywhere, including places that no cat has ever tread before.

Salmonella: Same as Pasteurella.

Bartonella: Carried by fleas. In fact, a flea could bite a rat that lives in your walls, then bit you and infect you with the disease... while your cat remains perfectly un-touched.

Helicobacter pylori: Recent research (late 1990's, with more studies having upheld the conclusions) has found that this is not a bacterium that originated in cats and was passed to humans. Instead, it originated in humans, with the human as the host, about 60,000 years ago, and only recently became zoonotic, and WE passed it to the *cats*. NOT the other way around.

Toxoplasmosis: Your article (which, by the way, is NOT a scientific study OR a published, scientific article, so it does NOT meet the criteria in this race) says is clearing in the first sentence on the subject: "Cats acquire Toxoplasma infection by ingesting infected prey." This disease does not originate with cats and cats are not even the main host. They are simply one of the MANY species that can catch or spread this disease.

Your article even said that "...less than 1% of infected cats actually shed oocysts." It seems that humans are more to blame for the spread of this disease than cats!

Tuberculosis: According to JOURNAL OF CLINICAL MICROBIOLOGY, Apr. 1996, p. 933–938, Assessment of Genetic Markers for Species Differentiation within
the Mycobacterium tuberculosis Complex :

"M. tuberculosis causes tuberculosis in humans, but infection has also been recorded in pet dogs and cats (1, 37) and other animals in contact with
infected humans."

In other words, we give the disease to them, they do not give it to us.

Furthermore, in the same, published study:

"M. microti, the vole or dassie bacillus, causes tuberculosis in small rodents (11, 36, 43), and although it has been reported to cause infection in a cat and pigs (24) and in a llama (31), it is not considered to be an human pathogen."

The form that cats can catch from THEIR environment is not a form that is considered to be zoonotic. It isn't even a form that one's goats or cows can catch!

And actually, I dare you to find a case of a cat with TB in this country in the last 50 years.

Rotaviruses: Not considered infections to humans from cats.

Rabies: Oh yes! Cats can give you rabies! So can every other mammal on the planet and some reptiles!

Feline Leukaemia: They have tried to find a cat-human link with FeLV and any number of human ailments and cancers since the 1960's. In 50 years of studies upon studies trying to find a link, NONE has been found. Not one. Feline Leukaemia does not pass in any way, shape, form or fashion to humans in any sort of normal cat-to-human relationship. (They HAVE managed it in a lab, by injecting the FeLV matter into other species cells, in petri dish, in carefully controlled conditions in the perfect environment...and found that that is the ONLY way to make it happen.)

So that one is out of the running as well.

FIV: Again, no cases of it ever being transmitted to humans, and only one case of it being transmitted to a primate (monkeys) in lab conditions where they injected the stuff.

Chlamydia psittaci: Cats and humans get it from birds. Stay away from birds.

Cowpox: Really? They list cowpox? The same virus that they used to vaccinate us with to prevent smallpox? Do they not realize that there is a reason it is called COWpox?

Coronaviruses: Cats are not a vector for human transmissions of Coronaviruses. Civets, which are NOT felines, *are*.

H5N1: Cats can catch it from eating infected birds. As can dogs, raccoons, or really anything that eats an infected bird. Cats aren't special in that, and they are no more a vector in transmission than any other carnivore or omnivore.

Spongiform Encephalitis: Cats can get it from eating infected beef. The only way they can transfer it to humans though, is if you eat an infected cat. Keep kitty tamales off the menu!

Anything else? Is that the best ya got?

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Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

Why does it matter to you that cats have to be the main source? Why have a source at all if you can help it? Why does it have to be an outbreak? Once is enough.
Rodents can be controlled by many other means then cats.

Felines are the main host. Other animals are intermediate hosts. It is shed in feline stool. That is how oocysts are released. The toxo is asexual in other species.
http://www.stanford.edu/class/humbio...lifecycle.html

Because not one of the things that humans can get on that list that *can* be transmitted by cats is something that can't ALSO be transmitted by dogs. And birds.

How much ammo are you willing to go through?

It matters that cats be the MAIN source because that's the only way to make it reasonable to eliminate them. Otherwise, it is like being diabetic and saying, "I need to eliminate sugars from my diet, so I am going to eliminate dairy products, because they contain lactose. But I am not going to even think about getting rid of that pantry full of Little Debbie Snack Cakes!"

Unless something is the MAIN source of the problem, it is a waste of time, effort, and resources to eliminate it that COULD be spent eliminating, oh, the ACTUAL main source of the problem?

Now, once you have gotten rid of the MAIN vectors...sure, start concentrating on the secondary vectors with their 1%-3% chance of infecting you. But before you worry about those, concentrate on the stuff that has the 40%-50% chance of infecting you.

Unless, of course, you get some sort of kick out of harming and killing certain kinds of animals. If so, please keep yourself far away from me!

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Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

Correct me then about the toxo life cycle. Rodents and birds do not pass infective oocysts in their feces like cats do. The cats are infected from ingesting the bird or rat, not its feces in the environment. The cat is the species that passes the infective form in large numbers.
I never said to shoot or harm a cat btw. I have trapped and taken to humane society though.

That is very true. But the problem again comes in eradication of this ONE problem that is generally not very noteworthy.

The definitive host IS felines. ALL felines. From Fluffy who is sitting in your lap, to the neighborhood bobcat, to the Lions in the zoo and the cougars that are slowly coming back into their native ranges. Ocelots down here can incubate it.

Every single feline in the world from the tiny, miniature Margay cat to the largest tiger is a host for it.

But, here is the trick: They ONLY pass the oocysts when they are FIRST infected. So even a cat that HAS it is only passing the oocyst for that first week of infection, and then their immune system takes care of it.

So saying that the cat is passing the infectious form is "large numbers" is misleading. Only recently infected cats are passing it *at all*.

If Fluffy got infected last month, she isn't passing oocysts...and what is more, she won't. No matter how many times she misses the litter box.

Guess what else spreads the oocysts, sometimes from up to 2 miles away?

Flies.

Yes, that is correct, flies can and do pick up oocysts from a cat pile in a garden a mile away from you, and can drop it right on your sandwich, in your horse's feed bucket, in your goat's water, or any number of places. It might not even have been oocysts deposited by a domestic cat....a bobcat could have pooped in the forest and the flies found it.

In fact, that is the HUGE vector in how it infects sheep, pigs, and cows....all animals that, prior to commercial slaughter, are kept in a commercial feed lot which often have tons and tons of..........

Flies.

Flies which land on poo, fly long distances carried by the wind, and crawl all over your animals and their feed.

So go ahead and make sure no strange cats EVER come on your property......but I would advice that you don't consider yourself or your animals safe from toxoplasmosis by doing so.

Me, I am not going to worry about it.

Although there IS one feral cat that comes on this property that I would LOVE to get in my rifle sites. I call him "Lucky" because he is lucky that I haven't gotten a clear shot at him. He's smart enough to avoid the live traps....but he beats the heck out of MY cats and I get tired of treating the resultant scratches, scrapes, and nicked ears. Even on my spayed queens.

That, however, is a individual situation. I dislike th idea of shooting most critters, unless they are a direct threat to my livestock. He's just managed to make himself special in this case.

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Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

Well I am going to do my due diligence to not allow cats to poop in my animals feed. If that makes me paranoid then so be it. I guess I just don't think poop on the hay is a good thing. Toxo or not. That's what this post is about. Not eradicating toxo as we know it. Not really sure how it became a game of defending the cat poop as an OK thing being all over.
Guess I'm crazy. I think carnivore poop is gross I play with it all day at work.

Lasergrl, no one is saying to encourage or even allow cats to poop in the feed. And I didn't even see it mentioned in the OP, just that they are going in the bedding.
What we are saying is that even if they were, then kill them, kill them now, is hardly an appropriate response.

We're also saying that as far as spreaders of disease go, cats are pretty low man on the totem pole, and prevent far more problems then they cause, (any history buffs remember the black plague? anyone?) as they have an incredibly small likelihood of passing on any disease at all, except as you pointed out, to other cats.

I didn't assume anything. You said you've experienced loss from TB due to cats.
If you've never had TB in your herd, then I'm not sure just how you've had financial loss due to it.
If you'd like to explain how both the above statements are true, I'd be interested to hear it.

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A ship in the harbor may be safe, but that's not what ships are built for

But cats are the main host and spreader of toxo. Due to the lifecycle cats are the only animals that actually spread it in the environment through the feces. That is the point of I'm trying to get across. The other sources such as rats and birds the muscle tissue must be ingested to squire disease. So to me that would mean cats are by far the largest and most meaningfull vector for this disease.
I don't think its fair to deny that in defense on the cat.

And cats don't get or spread lepto and if they do its incredibly rare.

its an open forum. anyone can post their opinions and methods. even if its not agreed with.

I have only shot one cat on my farm. It was a GIANT feral thing. Weighed about 30 lbs. It was sculking around my young meat chick's pen. Dog's went to investigate and the thing ATTACKED my pit bull, ripping off the end of her ear. It was clearly sick, and I was scared it had rabies, so I shot it on the spot. Would I shoot miscreant poopers? Probably not. I'm not a huge fan of cats, but I have considered getting some because the mice problem in my barn is more than my jack russell mutt can cover. Seeing all this info about cat poo is actually quite comforting. I refused to get cats up until now BECAUSE of the whole "cat poo kills your animals" threat.

Of course, if I did get cats, they probably WOULD kill my chickens. Everything is after MY chickens. They must be mighty tasty.

Jenn,

Keep the cats. Make a mondo litter box as suggested and see if it works.


Since we're on the subject of interanimal diseases..... can chickens pooing on hay, fed to goats/cows be harmful?

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“If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as a sorry state as the souls who live under tyranny." ~ Thomas Jefferson.