Goat Worming question

KrisD · #21 12/17/12, 06:58 PM

I don't use oil of oregano but I do use herbal wormers. It does depend on where you live though as if I lived in the south like Texas and FL I would or use them. Here the parasites die off during the winter. I also used chemical wormers on them when I first got them so they were clean when we started using herbal. I have had fecals done and the vet said keep up what your doing because it's working.i use Molly's Herbals.

CaliannG · #22 12/17/12, 10:34 PM

Some folks DO use herbal wormers. They are great for keeping worm loads low in maintenance, but they are next to useless as a treatment for an already high load.

~grinz~ One of the best all-natural, herbal wormers around these parts are the ubiquitous Texas Cedar. My goats LOVE that stuff. Because I have plenty of it (it is actually more common here than mesquite), I only have to use a chemical wormer once or twice a year. Other folks who live in my area, but who dry-lot, or have cleared out the cedar in their pastures, have to use chemical wormers 4-6 times a year.

Herbal or natural wormers have their place in a good management system. However, if a situation arises where you need the big guns, do NOT hesitate to use a chemical wormer.

Remember, parasites can kill.

silverseeds · #23 12/17/12, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

Some folks DO use herbal wormers. They are great for keeping worm loads low in maintenance, but they are next to useless as a treatment for an already high load.

I cant speak from knowledge about goats specifically but I can say with assurance oil of oregano can take a humans on their death bed from parasites literally (a family friend) right back to work the next day when everything in the hospital FAILED.

It was a parasite from raw shellfish. Most humans have parasites at some level actually. My mom back in ohio used to work at a kennel and she was big on oil of oregano and did fecals on her dogs. did it for people as well eventually. Oil of oregano worked on every person who needed treated including several who were having rather severe issues.

Like I said, I have no proof this transfers to goats but I cant see why it wouldnt. the way the kennel women heard of it was from local amish who used it on livestock.

Im not sure I would use mollys blend mentioned above though. wormwood can be kinda dangerous. Many others are as effective or more so without the potential danger.

CaliannG · #24 12/18/12, 12:13 AM

silverseeds, are you speaking of a person cured of shellfish parasites (tranferable to humans) Cryptosporidium, or Giardia?

silverseeds · #25 12/18/12, 12:38 AM

I can ask my mom if she knows the name of it. (its her friend and she was the one who basically forced it on him as he was on his deathbed, his wife eventually gave it to him just to shut my mom up, then of course it cured him like I said) All I know myself was that it was from raw seafood. I will get back to you eventually as I remember to ask her if she knows the name.

I know of others who used it when they had deep parasite issues. but none of the other cases were that extreme.

Perhaps it doesnt work on everything or goats (although mine seem great thus far- Ive studied the signs to look for and based on that mine are great, I didnt for the record do actual fecals though) but it definitely works well with some.

No one mis read me, I WOULD use meds if other means failed. although Id probably replace the goat soon afterwards, I hope to select for hardiness in my herd.

My plan is to have 4-6 similar herbs and squash seed in their diets daily. I will let you all know how it goes as I do it. In atleast some cases though oil of oregano CAN work on severe cases. Well in people anyway.

Im also contemplating reversing my stance. I dont test for disease myself but only buy tested animals now. Im thinking of going back to some of the herds Ive seen with somewhat poor management and selecting out the animals that excel DESPITE that. secluding them and testing them before they go with the rest of the herd of course, but its on my mind. I want a hardy low maintenance herd. Even if i need more work and time to get to it. Perhaps silly I know, but its how I roll. lol...

CaliannG · #26 12/18/12, 01:25 AM

ss, I hit the scientific sites at your post.

Oregano contains thymol and carvacrol, both of which have been shown in studies to have anthelmintic properties. There is work being done to synthesize them for use in the next generation of commercial wormers.

From reading the studies, however, I must make you aware: Parasites develop resistance to thymol and carvacrol after extended use just like they do to other natural or chemical anthelmintics.

In other words, the more and longer you use it, the less effective it is going to be against he parasites that you have on your property. Do not become dependent upon only that one natural dewormer, or think of it as a parasite panacea.

I asked about those two parasitic infection that might have been the cause of your Mom's friend's ailment because, when it comes to raw shellfish, the ONLY parasites they have that are capable of infecting humans are the ones that originated with humans that WE gave THEM by dumping our wastewater into rivers, lakes, and oceans. In other words, those parasites have always infected humans, have known treatments, or are often untreated because they go away on their own. The two I specifically mentioned, though, CAN cause severe illness in children, the elderly, or those with immune-compromised systems, although they will not kill an healthy adult. Those two are the worst of the bunch, though. If your mother's friend recieved the Oil of Oregano while still in the hospital, just to shut your mother up, and her friend was fine the next day, there is still nothing to say that it was the Oil of Oregano that did the trick, the MOUNDS of antiobiotics that the hospital would have been pumping into him if their tests had shown he had either of those parasites, or some combination of both of these things.

My husband got Giardia, the more nasty of those two infections. He tossed out the pills Doc gave him, did absolutely nothing different, felt like crap for a couple of weeks, and then one day woke up feeling fine and was fine then on out.

My husband drinks TONS of coffee. 3 or 4 pots a day. Maybe the Giardia couldn't stand having the caffiebe jitters and therefore abandoned ship? Or maybe the infection generally just lasts a couple weeks before a normally healthy body will kick its butt?

I hate to sound so skeptical; but I also really dislike it when new folks read stuff like this, take it at face value, go an give their very sick, weak, or parasite overloaded animal ONLY "The Great, Herbal, Parasite Panacea" touted by a person as gauranteed to raise the dead, only to end up with a dead animal because they should have shoved 3cc of Cydectin down the critter.

silverseeds · #27 12/18/12, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

If your mother's friend recieved the Oil of Oregano while still in the hospital, just to shut your mother up, and her friend was fine the next day, there is still nothing to say that it was the Oil of Oregano that did the trick, the MOUNDS of antiobiotics that the hospital would have been pumping into him if their tests had shown he had either of those parasites, or some combination of both of these things.

Must have been something else if these are treatable. Or perhaps his case was to far gone, they didnt even TRY to treat him. Simply dull the pain as he died. Hes pretty wealthy and was at a good hospital as well for the record. the hospital told him he had 5-7 days to live. he couldnt take food or liquids. As I said though I know others who used it with issues, just not on their deathbeds. I wouldnt make this up, I have no skin in the game. Was just curious if others used it. I use such means for my own families health as well. So its my path for the goats until everything else fails.

I will keep oil of oregano on the back burner after what you said, since its pretty strong and i dont want to mess with its effectiveness. Id better get something else to use until I can grow the range I intend to use.

might as well throw this out there also. I know how to make a decent quality colloidal silver. If all else failed I would try this before using meds. controversial, but Ive seen this effective in people as well. It was used as a antibiotic before modern anti biotics. nothing known to date builds a tolerance to it. Drug companies lobby to get it deemed a pesticide by the way. Likely cant stand the competition as the net gave silver a small bit of traction among a few.

CaliannG · #28 12/18/12, 01:53 AM

Collodial silver was, an is still, used as an EXTERNAL antibiotic, and works decently at that application.

It looses all effectiveness when taken internally, but can cause serious side effects if too much is taken internally. No matter what all the sites selling the stuff, the means to make the stuff, or the people who have bought into the stuff, say.

CS [has no effectiveness in internal applications.[/I] Although, again, works great for external. My grandmother used it to so soak bandages to apply to external wounds, even after the common availability of triple antibiotic ointment.

My Great Aunt believed, however, that it didn't work as well as a good chickory and comfry salve.

KrisD · #29 12/18/12, 01:59 AM

Just wanted to let you know that Molly's has 2 formulas. Only one has wormwood. My does don't get wormwoodswhile they are pregnant.

I do urge you and anyone else to do fecals before AND after to know if the herbals are working. I think we can (and should) be natural in our management and still use a scientific method. I always keep Quest and Ivermectin on hand for the just in case. I would NOT hesitate to use a chemical wormer at anytime if the need arises, my girls are far too valuable to me emotionally to risk it. Not to mention I would never get over it if I killed one of my girls out of my negligence.

KrisD · #30 12/18/12, 02:05 AM

"but can cause serious side effects if too much is taken internally."
Exactly! Just ask the blue guy who lives here in Bellingham. He is permanently blue because of the CS he took.

silverseeds · #31 12/18/12, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KrisD

"but can cause serious side effects if too much is taken internally."
Exactly! Just ask the blue guy who lives here in Bellingham. He is permanently blue because of the CS he took.

He made it entirely wrong and used multiples more then needed in a manner that isnt needed for any condition its useful for. I definitely disagree with callian on this. I will leave it at that. Its hard to dig through the claims and rhetoric on the topic but the sound data is there if you look deep enough.

JoannaCW · #32 12/18/12, 08:47 AM

I've used Hoegger's herbal wormer (which contains wormwood) for the past 9 years; I used to alternate it with febendozole paste until I was convinced that the febendozole wasn't effective. I've given the wormer to pregnant goats and not had bad results. I don't do regular fecals but I do observe that the does have good deep-pink eyelids, vigourous appetites, plenty of energy, decent production, and diarrhea only rarely and generally in response to an obvious feed issue, so I infer that they aren't carrying dangerous worm loads. I want to do more with squash seeds, oregano etc. next year.

Backfourty,MI. · #33 12/18/12, 09:20 AM

The OP has obvious worm that he can see in his goats poop or around their anus so they obviously need a wormer that will take care of things. They are very new to goats & looking for advice on how to get rid of them & what to do. They should use the chemicals wormers talked about already & good advice has been given.

I'm not saying that herbal wormers don't work although I don't use them myself but this thread is not about herbal wormers or if they work.
I know I have read threads here where some folks have really good luck with them but Fecals should be done before & after using them to make sure the problem is taken care of. Also winter is not a good time for fecals as you won't get a good fecal count.
Just saying the debate for herbal or Not should be on a different thread & not here to add more confusion to a newbie in need of our help.

silverseeds · #34 12/18/12, 10:01 AM

I waited until the topic was covered thoroughly before asking if people used an herb that really should be effective at heavy worm loads. Literally so I could see if it held as true in goats as it does humans, as well as sharing the name of one Ive been using on my goats with apparent success thus far. Always good to have additional items in the war chest. I CAN get oil of oregano locally. I cant however get anything for goats without driving about 95 miles to a vet that handles goats,( I assume there would be a vet that handles goats there anyway its a bigcity) or other means I HAVE to do in advance. So I can also see times this just might help someone who doesnt have another option at a specific time. Lots of us are very rural, with inadequate local options.

KrisD · #35 12/18/12, 11:19 AM

I do agree SS. We need many things in our medicine chest. I will be anxious to try oil of Oregeno if I can find a supplier for it. Parasites are becoming more and more resistant to the chemical wormers on the market as the years go by. We need GOOD alternatives, and these are things that WE need to test since the chemical companies sure won't be.

Alice In TX/MO · #36 12/18/12, 02:12 PM

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp...&bpcl=40096503

KrisD · #37 12/18/12, 02:40 PM

I knew you'd come through Alice.

CaliannG · #38 12/18/12, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silverseeds

I cant however get anything for goats without driving about 95 miles to a vet that handles goats,( I assume there would be a vet that handles goats there anyway its a bigcity) or other means I HAVE to do in advance. So I can also see times this just might help someone who doesnt have another option at a specific time. Lots of us are very rural, with inadequate local options.

~smiles~ Anything OTC (such as Ivermectin, Cydectin, Quest Plus, whatever) is available online, even with one day shipping.

MOST of the stuff we use is available OTC at a feed store. MOST of the stuff we use is labeled for use in cattle...so if there are enough cattle ranches around, there is a local supply of these medications.

Wormers, antibiotics, antitoxins, SHOULD be gotten in advance. They SHOULD be a part of the war chest.

If, however, it were me (as I live rural), and it was a Saturday when the vets are closed, and I needed something NOW, I gaurantee I would be able to find a chemical wormer, or an antibiotic, far easier than I would be able to find Oil of Oregano or CS. The only health food store within 100 miles that might carry those things is closed on the weekend, but the feed store is open. My neighbors are also FAR more likely to have a spare tube of paste wormer or pour-on Cydectin than they would an herbal or CS.

But, the truth is, we try not to discuss controversial management techniques, un-proven medications, alternative remedies, ect., in a newbie thread that has the equivalent of "I've got a sick goat". It's easy to start a new thread that says "Hey! Anyone doing such and so?" instead of giving a new person who already has a Situation conflicting and confusing debate.

silverseeds · #39 12/19/12, 12:32 AM

I dont manage my own health with similar things, unless there are NO options. Certainly wont manage my animals health with such things until there are NO options. I did however ask my local feedstore if they had them. I had a list printed out. she stopped me before I finished reading it. she sells none of it. LOTS of cattle ranching here, but they use none of this either. they are totally freerange, make it or break it. Trust me on that, Ive known several of the local ranchers.

there used to be another feedstore in town until semi recently (4 years or so) they might have carried such things I couldnt say. No doubt those who want them get them in the larger cities as anyone here must do with about anything.

that said my local pharmacy DOES carry oil of oregano and many other herbs. Besides I always have it in my cupboard anyway. I wouldnt buy CS if I decided to use it in a last ditch effort. Id make it for pennies on the dollar and of superior quality to most you can buy.

Why shouldnt newbies (and I AM a newbie myself-figure I should carry that label ATLEAST until I have my first kidding) consider alternative means? weigh the "unproven" versus more mainstream options. Life has many options. Most will of course gravitate to the more mainstream stuff, for understandable reasons. I honestly will just stop posting here if talking about alternatives is only acceptable in quarantined threads.

I purposely waited until the topic was covered I will again point out. Answers already given and accepted.

CaliannG · #40 12/19/12, 01:53 AM

~sighs~ Worms in such a heavy load that they are exiting the rectum are a *serious* issue, and can be life-threatening. New people often don't know much about how mainstream drugs interact, much less have the knowledge to weigh the alternatives.

Tell me thymol and carvacol, the active ingredients in O-of-O, work as a anthelmetic? How do they kill the parasites? DO they actually KILL the parasites, or do they disrupt reproduction and pupating stages? Tell me the same things about CS, the how and why?

I can tell you that the Macrolides (things ending in "ectin") kill all stages of strongyls by inhibiting protein synthesis. I can tell you that it disrupts pupation and reproduction of fleas, lice and mites through the same mechanism.

I can tell you that the Nicotinics are derived from Nicotine (Morantel, Levamisole,etc.) and that they work by binding to cell receptors and causing paralysis in all stages that HAVE receptors of these types. "Resistance is built when organisms lacking nAChRs are artificially selected for due to the use of the drug.

At any rate...alternative methods are fine....but the time to be introduced to them is NOT when a person who is unfamiliar with even the mainstream stuff is experiencing a Situation. That is why such things are called "alternative".

~sighs~ Maybe I am just wasting my typing fingers here. You claim to be a "newbie", but you find it okay to tell other newbies they should try Alternatives for health situations that you, yourself, have yet to experience with goats, and then when it is suggested that perhaps such things belong in another thread, twist it about then threaten a "I'll just take my ball and go home".

ss, when people come here and post "My goat is sick", THEY don't know you are a newbie. Therefore, how will you feel when that newbie takes your advice, and a beloved goat who has a MUCH higher load than a natural can treat, dies of it? When that goat could have been saved with a "mainstream" treatment easily and affordably?

Understand PEOPLE. There is a reason that when folks come here with problems, we offer "mainstream" treatments....it is because there is plenty of time to learn all of the alternatives when an animal's life doesn't hang in the balance. PEOPLE, when they are worried about a sick animal, do not always think clearly, and will often not differentiate who said what, even with disclaimers...they will only remember "They said to try this", and not always in the order of what was suggested or by whom.