Fern update. :(

Shayanna · #21 11/14/12, 11:49 AM

The blindness we just realized isn't from the disease. The other day when she kept trying to get up, and she hit her face a couple times on that side. The left eye is completely blue but the right is still sharp. But my husband keeps checking on her today and the news gets from bad to worse. She would hardly nibble at her honey/cheerio/grain mixture this morning, and now she is apparently foaming at the mouth and won't lift her head from the sleeping position. I don't know what I can do at this point. I'm at work. My husband is going to pick up the dexamethasone and dextrose now. And I can't afford ANYTHING else.

I also don't know how much more we can try and keep trying to make her try. I'll have my husband. If he needs assistance with anything, I will have him call the goat people down the road.

LoneStrChic23 · #22 11/14/12, 12:02 PM

When the vet did our emergency c-section he snipped a vein in the spine (going to get the actual name tomorrow & update) with a scalpel just past her last rib..... This paralyzed her & gave him more time to get the babies. He cut the babies from the rumen side which surprised me as I had her on the opposite side before he came & he asked us to flip her.

The spine vein snip was painless, and she still took a few even breaths afterwards, which bought more time than a bullet.... She bled out as fast as a jugular cut & my vet prefers this method of euthanasia to a throat cut.

Afterward I asked why he went in the rumen side & he said there was less in the way & easier for fast removal, and I must say he had twins out VERY fast.

Her kids were in severe distress, Astra's kidneys had already failed, and despite that, the doe kid he pulled actually did take 1 breath after he passed her to me, but I couldn't get her going.

Morbid story I know, but I watched & learned...... I hope to never be in that position again & don't wish it on anyone else.... Here is Astras sad tale if you care to read it after you are passed all this...

My 1st goat related heartbreak.....

Shayanna · #23 11/14/12, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneStrChic23

Morbid story I know, but I watched & learned...... I hope to never be in that position again & don't wish it on anyone else.... Here is Astras sad tale if you care to read it after you are passed all this...

My 1st goat related heartbreak.....

OH. MY. GOD. now I know why you wanted me to read it after. That is my story. Especially after I lost my Alpine buck here in august...
I'm sorry for your lost.

momagoat61 · #24 11/14/12, 01:15 PM

If you are going to do this, trying to save the kids you are going to have to work in lighting speed. When whoever reaches in to get the kids out you better be prepared for multiple kids, meaning you need several people there to hand off kids too, because when the doe dies you don't have time, kids die when the does heart beat stops period! The kids are going to be incased in the sack and will look like a ball, your going to have to get the kids out of the sack fast, but be care with the umbilical cord attached to the kids, rip it out and the kids will for sure bleed out and your will not have enough time to stop it. When you get the kids out swing them by holding them by the back legs and one hand under their chest.. Good Luck

iloveafarmer · #25 11/14/12, 01:22 PM

I'm so sorry you're going through all this, I can't imagine. I'll pray for you all.

Shayanna · #26 11/14/12, 02:15 PM

and before I get too far ahead of myself... We are going to try the dexamethasone first.
"If the kids are within 7 days of due date, and the doe does not respond
immediately to treatment, giving 20-25mg dexamethasone can induce labor.
Labor will begin within 48 hours. Dexamethasone is preferred over hormonal
induction of parturition because of its beneficial stimulus to appetite.
Also, dexamethasone may also prepare the lungs of marginally immature kids
increasing their chances of survival during labor or cesarean. Valuable does
that fail to respond within 24 hours should have a cesarean immediately.
"

Its still too early for the kids, but maybe she will get her appetite back and it will help her? Here's to hoping.

Jyllie63 · #27 11/14/12, 02:24 PM

All you can do is try

. I know this is so hard for you, but you have been a trooper at taking our advice and doing your best for her.

momagoat61 · #28 11/14/12, 02:44 PM

There's something else you need to be aware before you start this and I'm only saying this because you need to be fully aware of everything that can and could go wrong. I been in your shoes before concerning all this, induction, c-section, premuture kids, you name it.. But you need to be aware that it's a possiblity that your doe since she's down the kids will not get in the correct position for delivery even after you induce her with the above mentioned drugs even if your doe is strong enough to deliver the kids on her own..

Shayanna · #29 11/14/12, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momagoat61

There's something else you need to be aware before you start this and I'm only saying this because you need to be fully aware of everything that can and could go wrong. I been in your shoes before concerning all this, induction, c-section, premuture kids, you name it.. But you need to be aware that it's a possiblity that your doe since she's down the kids will not get in the correct position for delivery even after you induce her with the above mentioned drugs even if your doe is strong enough to deliver the kids on her own..

I do realize this. I just really think I am out of options at this point. I will bring my stethoscope home though and try to listen for heart tones. If after 24 hours the dexamethasone doesn't work, we will likely try to get a feel for kid position, which I will have the goat people down the road help with. If she isnt doing so hot (i.e. dying), and there are heart tones, we might try a c-section. If there aren't heart tones, and things go downhill, we will put her down.

Shayanna · #30 11/14/12, 03:27 PM

Should I milk some colostrum from her just in case? We have milk replacer on hand.

finnsheep · #31 11/14/12, 03:28 PM

From what I know about acetonemia (ketosis), once neurological symptoms are taking place, it's frequently too late. There may be permanent neuro damage if she lives.

If the kids are alive and you do decide to perform an emergency C-section, it must be done as speedily as possible.

Honestly, the chances of kid survival is pretty unlikely.

I would make the incision closest to where the gravid uterine horn/s lie. It is a big pain to have to exteriorize the uterus and that wastes exceedingly precious time. You will have to palpate her abdomen to determine this because each pregnancy is a little different based on fetal positioning.

In small ruminants, this can be done on the flank or the midline above the udder. As this would be a terminal procedure, it doesn't really matter, and it could be in a different location. I would avoid the left side as the viscera there, mainly the rumen, impede access and it is slower unless you are a professional (veterinarian), and know exactly where you are going.

The kids will be within the fetal membranes and will be difficult to pull out- be careful. You will have to immediately remove the membranes over the face so the kid can breathe. It will be very likely that it will have inhaled amniotic fluid. Be sure you have an assistant to do this while you go in for the other kid/s. They can be swung vigorously upside down in an arc. Be prepared to perform chest compressions and administer the kiss of life if necessary. Chest compressions must be done with enough force to expell the mucous and fluids but not too violently of course. They can start the heart as well.

Usually bulb syringes are not enough to deal with the fluids and so you will have to resort to these mechanical means of expelling it.

Vigorous rubbing afterwards will help them.

I am not going to sugarcoat this- this will seem to be violent and it is. If the doe is put down properly, she will not suffer, but again, speed is of the utmost importance when attempting to save the offspring. Even normal C-sections can be difficult and don't always turn out. You will have to adopt a whatever it takes attitude because there is no turning back once you start.

I wish you were closer and I wasn't in school because I think I could do it. I've never done it before but I work with large animal vets who deal with sheep and goats (including repro vets) and I have (or think I have) a reasonable understanding of the procedure and the anatomy of the pregnant ewe/doe.

If you have any questions we will try to help. Just hang in there and do your best
It is a very sad position to be in and I feel for you.

This year I lost a beautiful ewe and her twin lambs to hypocalcemia...we did everything we could and the vet did too. Finally we had an emergency C-section performed in an effort to save both dam and offspring, but alas, the lambs never took a breath and the ewe did not live for much afterwards.

You are going to kick yourself. I do it every day over every single animal that I have lost. Some were preventable, in hindsight. Others were not. Of course I miss them.

I could have taken that ewe in six hours earlier and probably would have gotten live lambs. I still think that I would have lost her anyway, but I needed to try.

But little good does that wishing do now. It's terrible. But I firmly believe that life has its ups and downs, and we are never given more than we can handle. No matter what happens, you need to understand that things do happen, but we are human and make mistakes. As long as we did the best we could at the time with the knowledge we had, and then learned everything we could from the hard lesson we were given, we did right by them.

Just do the best you can and try to be at peace with the outcome. We're all here for you.

finnsheep · #32 11/14/12, 03:41 PM

You might want to watch goat or sheep C-section videos on YouTube. It is nothing like actually watching it live/helping with one, but it will help you visualize things a little better. Just bear in mind the different incision locations are based on where it is easiest to retrieve the kids.

momagoat61 · #33 11/14/12, 03:42 PM

You can see if you can get any colostrum from your doe and save it in the event you do get live kids or ask the people down the road from you if they have any colostrum in the freezer. I which you all the luck in the world on all this. With Ketosis they usually dry up their milk supply due to the condition.

Minelson · #34 11/14/12, 03:46 PM

I'm so sorry you are going through this and have been praying for Fern. ((((hugs)))

momagoat61 · #35 11/14/12, 03:48 PM

You can see if you can get any colostrum from your doe and save it in the event you do get live kids or ask the people down the road from you if they have any colostrum in the freezer. I which you all the luck in the world on all this. With Ketosis they usually dry up their milk supply due to the condition.

**mygoat** · #36 11/14/12, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneStrChic23

When the vet did our emergency c-section he snipped the spinal cord with a scalpel just past her last rib..... This paralyzed her & gave him more time to get the babies. He cut the babies from the rumen side which surprised me as I had her on the opposite side before he came & he asked us to flip her.

The spinal cord snip was painless, and she still took a few even breaths afterwards, which bought more time than a bullet.... She bled out as fast as a jugular cut & my vet prefers this method of euthanasia to a throat cut.

Afterward I asked why he went in the rumen side & he said there was less in the way & easier for fast removal, and I must say he had twins out VERY fast.

Her kids were in severe distress, Astra's kidneys had already failed, and despite that, the doe kid he pulled actually did take 1 breath after he passed her to me, but I couldn't get her going.

Morbid story I know, but I watched & learned...... I hope to never be in that position again & don't wish it on anyone else.... Here is Astras sad tale if you care to read it after you are passed all this...

My 1st goat related heartbreak.....

HOw on earth did your vet get to the spinal cord in one 'snip'? That seems impossible, it's very well protected by the spine. AS someone who has butchered MANY goats, and separated the neck peice from the back spine, as well as the spine/pelvis from right behind the ribcage, I just don't see how it's possible - but knowing how would be VERY valueable for both butchering and in emergency c-sections! The spinal processes fit together to make a solid wall preventing acess to the cord, and I've always had to push down and 'break' the joint after cutting most muscle/tendons in the joint I wanted to break.

LoneStrChic23 · #37 11/14/12, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygoat

HOw on earth did your vet get to the spinal cord in one 'snip'? That seems impossible, it's very well protected by the spine. AS someone who has butchered MANY goats, and separated the neck peice from the back spine, as well as the spine/pelvis from right behind the ribcage, I just don't see how it's possible - but knowing how would be VERY valueable for both butchering and in emergency c-sections! The spinal processes fit together to make a solid wall preventing acess to the cord, and I've always had to push down and 'break' the joint after cutting most muscle/tendons in the joint I wanted to break.

Donna that's because my vet is just freaking awesome & can do seemingly impossible things!

Or it could be that I shouldn't try to type & have a conversation at the same time...

No, not spinal cord....... A particular vein. It was quick & was the least tramatic thing that happened to that goat in 2 days.... He told me how to get the just right spot so it was easiest, and he told me the name of what he was cutting, but now I can't remember.... Going to call and verify tomorrow so I can post the correct term

So sorry..... Nothing like a public foot in mouth eh?

I watched a friend put a butcher wether down with the same spine cut, and it was so much better than jugular cuts I've seen.....

Either way, I don't think that doeling could have even managed that single breath if Astra had been shot... I think the,few breaths she did take helped, though the buckling never took a breath...

Shayanna · #38 11/14/12, 08:09 PM

dh gave her dexamethasone at 4. we just now gave her some pcn, b complex, and dextrose. she nibbled at her grain a bit. there is atleast a 3 inch string of mucus. she is still yelling. and there might be contractions.

Suzyq2u · #39 11/14/12, 08:11 PM

Sounds like progress

LoneStrChic23 · #40 11/14/12, 08:27 PM

Keep up the dextrose and CMPK..... She'll need it, especially if she's going into labor. My vet told me to give every 2-4 hours. Have your kidding supplies ready & be prepared to tube feed babies if they survive. If you can tube them colostrum & keep them very warm, you will give them a chance to make it, even if they are a lil early.

Good luck! Crossing my fingers for you!