Hi, I can see what he says about treating the condition. ..again sorry to hear about your goat..

Gretta had a really good day yesterday. She ate 2 little boxes of raisins from my mom and then kept following my mom around. And we ALL went for a walk last night. It's the first time Gretta came along in months! Today it's only 20 degrees and she is not shivering or anything at all. :)

Go Gretta go. Glad you had a happy birthday.

Here is a picture from last night. It really doesn't show how boney she is but it does show how little she is compared to Frankie. She used to be almost as big as him

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2...D550/ry%3D400/

Min,

I've been on Pred since I was 13. It makes me hungry all the time. I have no experience with Johnes but from the Pred standpoint yes I'm always starving. I also have Addisons disease and that too makes me hungry all the time. I waste away without the Pred. The only thing I wouldn't try is the fasting. I'm already starving and the idea just seems like torture. Sorry Sherry but that's the truth. I am a foot shorted then my hubs and 40lbs lighter (he's skinny) but I can eat twice what he eats any day of the week. I just thought you old want to know. I'm so sorry about miss Gretta and that you have to go through this.

Thanks Kris

Sounds like Gretta is really enjoying the visit with your mom too & holding her own. Go Gretta & Go Michele, she wouldn't be doing this well if it wasn't for you!
Loved the tiara too by the way!

Another really good day. I did make a couple changes and maybe that is why. I started the Dyne again and she got the Replamin on Fri. When I went out tonight she came running FAST to me. And then she proceeded to attack Rocky my dog. I know that she will never get better 100% but it sure is nice to have some of the old spunky Gretta back :)

How encouraging!!! Sounds like she is doing good :) Keep up the awesome job you are doing keeping Gretta comfy and happy!

I told my Mom, who is visiting, that she can't go home tomorrow because Gretta has been so much better since she got here!

Keep those raisins going!!!! lol I take mine every day, but those are soaked in gin ;)

I'm sorry to read this. Be brave and strong! Wish you the best!

SPIKE

Set back. Today is not very good. It's cold and she was shivering this morning..so was fat Frankie though. It was 30 degrees in the barn. 18 outside. She didn't browse at all just laid in the sun all day. I will not let her die cold. That is my biggest fear. I am devising a sweater and making alterations on the coat that Momagoat61 sent me so it fits. Kicking myself cuz I should have done this earlier! down to 13 degrees tonight they say...so that means probably 8-10.
So I was thinking, when it REALLY gets cold do I bring her in the house? But then she would freak being away from Frankie & Flossie. And if Frankie & Flossie have Johnes, stress is what sets it off. I better get to work :(

I would bring them all in the house :D

Heat some towels up in your dryer on high. If you do this everyone will be warm everytime you go out ;) Take the warm towel and place it under her sweater/blanket so that it warms up the spine and kidneys.

She is just missing your Mom too - get her back!!

I used a very VERY nice Polertec mock neck to put on her. I was going through my stuff looking for my favorite picks when I'm cold. Hubby got me this as a gift a few years ago. I felt a bit guilty while cutting off the arms to make it fit Gretta. Then I held it up and WA-LA!...big ol stain right on the chest..good bye guilt!! I think she likes it..I'll get a picture :)

Yes, picture please! I always use Hot water bottles under old towels for kids born in early spring if it turns cold. Lots of times I find the big goats snuggling on them too. Why don't you try those. I get the water as hot as absolutely possible because it's in the thick rubber water bottle & under a towel. Those with the goat laying on them will stay warm close to all night long. Plus they are easy to wash if they get poo or pee on them & no electric cords.
I wish that coat I sent would have fit little Gretta. You sure you don't want me to send you the other 1 I have?

Min I bought a heated pad for my spring kids. It gently warms them with no hot spots. The cord is wrapped in wire to prevent chewing (it's made for dogs). It has a fleece top but it's kinda cheap fleece. My goats love it and its big enough that my Nigie fits all the way on it.

There is an old horse blanket trick for super cold weather that was common before all the modern insulation was developed. You put one blanket on and a second one over that. Then you stuffed straw between the two like one would stuff a scarecrow. It's very good insulation.
I'm think it might work for you because you have the fleece and the goat blanket.

Cheering for you and your goaties, Minelson...

:: hugs ::

Especially if 1 of the coats is too big. That would leave plenty of room for straw/stuffing when it gets really bitter this winter.

I'm sad that people have dropped out of helping me with Gretta. I am trying everything and nothing works. She will ONLY EAT ALFALFA AND PRUNES AND SALTINE crackers. That is it. It's like she knows what will work and what will not. She and I are at the point that she is staying alive for her babies...Frankie & Flossie. I can't imagine how they will live without her. She is their rock and they have no clue how to live without her. The whole farm needs her. and the thought of having her gone is devastating .. I don't want her to suffer but she has so much to live for. :(

Minelson, I am sorry you are feeling so badly... but you know, sometimes, no matter how hard you try, the best you can do isn't going to be enough.

Frankie and Flossie will be fine. Many, many animals are separated from their dam at birth, and go on to be very happy, good livestock.

I wonder who is whose rock, dear. You are holding on to Gretta with all your strength. Is it that you believe she has so much to live for, or that you are terrified of living in a world without her?

I'm sorry you're feeling so bad.

Minelson, I'm so sorry you feel down. We have not dropped out. We just don't know what else to tell you. I have been following your threads since the very beginning. In Gretta's case you know what the problem is. Just keep doing what you are doing. You can't get any more nutritious food than alfalfa hay. Just be grateful she is eating it.

I agree with Pony---Frankie and Flossie would be just fine. I hope this doesn't upset you even more, but when Squirt was laying in the barn dead, the other goats paid no attention. And things are back to normal today as far as they are concerned. It seems like some of our goats are more attached to me and my mom than to each other. You will always be there for them.

As Nancy has said, we have NOT dropped out, all we can do is be with you & Gretta the best we can.
You are already doing everything you know to do. We cant possibly add to it.
If she does pass, Frankie & Flossy still have each other.
I have found sibling bonds stronger than maternal ones.
We love you Min, we are all praying & agonizing for & with you.

Min, I would love to be able to give you a magic recipe of something that will fix her, or make her better, or more comfortable, but sweety, I have given you every bit of knowledge that i know on the problem. I have researched studies that I have put through Google Translate first, just to try and find something that maybe the English speaking world doesn't know. It all comes down to the same thing:

The drugs used to treat the disease are a combination of metronidazole (Flagyl) and ciprofloxacin (Cipro) to control the bacteria, with prednisone to reduce the inflammation in the intestines and promote healing, and azathioprine (Imuran) to suppress the immune system long enough for the intestines to heal. That is all I have found that consistently works. That is it. I have looked and looked. That combination of drugs has been known to beat back the disease and even cause recovery in both human Crohn's patients, and in animal trials with livestock that exhibited Johne's Disease. It's a drug cocktail, it has to be used long-term (we are speaking of months here), but it has been proven to work in putting the disease in remission.

I'm not abandoning you. I just haven't found anything else to help. Other than doing a drug cocktail to try to put her in remission, the only thing that CAN be done for her is giver her a junk-food diet that is easily absorbed, and make her comfortable.

Tell me what I can do to help, and I will do it.

OK another suggestion to help with the cold if aren't doing it already. She may enjoy buckets of warm water periodically during the day.

I check this thread several times a day. I just wish I could do more.

I have nothing much to add except hugs. :grouphug:

I do think that deciding the right time is never easy, it is never clear, and we can only hope we are making the right decision at the right time.

You are in my thoughts.

Warm drinking water is a great idea.

I need doses. I can get the meds ... but I need doses. I am having trouble finding someone to give me that. My boss trusts my judgment enough to help with a cocktail but is at a loss as to how to do it.

Thanks to you all......Sorry :( I just need some big doses of reassurance I guess. This is exhausting. :(

It is late tonight, but tomorrow morning, I will attempt to dig out some doses on those. It's troublesome, because the doctors don't want to share that information on how they do it with Crohn's patients, and the animal trials pre-doing-it-with-humans are a bit confusing. I will try working it out tomorrow morning, when I can see. (eyes getting blurry)

I should be able to get you *something*, a starting point, in the morning.

((((((hugs))))))) I have nothing to say Michele but I can always offer hugs. I am so so sorry you are going through this. My prayers are with you and my heart aches so much for you. I will say it again no matter what happens we all will be here for you. I think I speak for everyone when I say we haven't gone anywhere I think we are just at a loss of what to say.

I have tried to write many things but deleted all of them because honestly what can you say. I just want you to know (as I told you in PM's) I have been there and watching your loved one go through what Gretta is going through and the wondering if you are doing the right thing or not...it can eat away at you. YOU will know when her time is up and honestly I say if she is willing to fight then you keep fighting right beside her. When she is ready to let go I firmly believe you will know and I believe God will be right beside both of you as you take that final journey.

I hope I didn't say anything that offended or hurt....like I said I wrote so many different things and each one I deleted.

Justine

Justine, you are the most non-hurtful, unoffensive people I know! Thank you for all the kind words. When my 18 year old dog Shep had to be put to sleep I went through something similar. But I was more prepared and more "in touch" with what was going on. Maybe I am handling this so poorly because of menopause and I'm drinking to numb out.
Calianne thank you for digging in so deep and spending so much time on this I really do appreciate it so much.
You all are wonderful and I don't know what I would do without you. Thanks for holding me up

I am terrified of living in a world without her...:Bawling:

Hi Minelson..I wish there was something that we could do to help Gretta. I guess if there's a Chrohns patient out there..maybe they could share what they are taking..then take Greta's weight and the person's weight and make a dose that is close.

I really don't know how you believe. I believe that there is a heaven and it has animals as well as people in it. We have been here 14 years on this homestead. We knew that since we brought in the animals all at once, we would lose them that way too. My horse (27), dogs (20, 12, ?, ?) our 2 bottle baby pet boers (10 and 11), First milking does (12, 12, 10). Now Louise (Weezie) remains at 14 yrs and she is my best friend. It's hard. If I didn't believe that I would see them all again, I guess I'd be a real wreck and not own another animal.

You have the circle of life playing out in front of you. Greta and her "kids". Take comfort in knowing that you are not the only one that loses a precious being. And, that you have done all you can do for her.

It's hard for humans to know when to say when.

Thinking of you~

Metronidazole (Flagyl) dosage: 500mg 3 times a day, for 4 weeks. Given orally.

Miprofloxacin (Cipro) dosage: 500mg given every 12 hours, for 4 weeks. Given orally.

Prednisone dosage: 2mg/kg of body weight, (NO MORE than 80 mg per day) divided into 3 doses per day (give at the same time as the Flagyl), for 4 weeks. Given orally.

Treatment with azathioprine (Imuran) cannot be started until Gretta's anemia is much better. However, the predmisone has immunosuppressant activities. To treat the anemia, use either the Replamin or the Red Cell. Replamin dose at 5cc orally for three days, and then again four days after, then dosed at twice weekly. If using Red Cell, dose at 3cc twice daily. The Replamin will be a bit easier on her system than the Red Cell, due to yeast buffers. However, she needs selenium, copper, and iron to build blood cells and until she shows massive improvement in the anemia, she is to be considered severely deficient in these minerals.

Due to the massive amounts of antibiotics that will be put into her system, she should be treated with either probiotic paste or live culture yogurt twice daily. Yes, the antibiotics will kill them off daily, which is why they will need to be replenished.

Watch for drug allergies for the first three days of treatment, and evaluate progress weekly. Drug allergies will be very noticeable, and if you see them, let me know and we can adjust the drugs.

This is a very aggressive treatment plan, Min, and it needs to be strictly adhered to for the four weeks, and then she needs to be vet evaluated for signs of remission to determine if it needs to be extended another four weeks. If it needs to be extended, during the second four weeks, the prednisone dosage will need to be dropped to 1.5mg/kg of body weight administered every other day.

~hugs~ I love you. I hope this helps. I hope this puts her in remission.

(((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))

This helps a TON. My boss is currently looking into purchasing what I need and getting prices. The dosage will help him with that too. Thank you so much Caliann!!!:goodjob: