Oh Michele:(

:grouphug:

Oh Min! I was so hoping when I read the title.... Big hugs to you and your goat babies you are one of the best goat mom's I know. Somehow something WILL work out, you and your babies will be okay.

Aww hon, I'm so sorry :(

Sherry, there is no way I can fast her in the condition she is in. i could easily fast Frankie! But no way ...no way with Gretta. But I am not over feeding her either. I emailed the vet to see what else can be done.

I wonder if johnes is anything close to what celiac is in people... The effects sound similar to me. If so some sort of diet change may help.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, baby girl! What is all of this? I read you blaming yourself because Gretta caught a disease that you didn't know about, and now you are talking about locking up the babies forever, how you will never be able to have ruminenants again, and you are somehow killing off the neighbor's cows?

WHOA there sweety! Easy up!

First off, how do you know that your neighbor's cows don't already have it? Johne's is rampant in cattle herds, and goes untested and un-spoken about. A dirty little industry secret. So much a secret that many dairy farmers no little to nothing about it! When Gretta caught it as a baby, it was likely the fault of ignorant cattle people!

You might want to ask the neighbor if he tests for Johne's though.

As for the babies? They are currently beyond the period that most babies are first exposed to it. Please remember that being EXPOSED to Johne's is NOT a death sentence! Some animals DO fight off the bacteria after being exposed, and never develop the disease. Exposure does NOT equal disease.

For Frankie and Flossie, have you looked into treating with a combination of antibiotics such as rifabutin, and a macrolide such as clarithromycin? Those two drugs have *killed* the bacteria that causes the disease in Crohn's patients, but it is a LONG treatment regimen. Months of treatment, but the regimen HAS worked in humans.

Also, never have more rumenants? Honey, Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis is a *bacteria*. It's existence outside of an animal host is ~finite~. One year, maximum. One year, if you do nothing but air things out, before you know for a fact that all traces of the bacteria are gone from your property. If you go medieval on your barn and such, you can cut that time. But even in complete dormacy, under perfect conditions, Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis cannot liv more than a year without a host...so your place is NOT "forever contaminated"!

Now, take deep breaths and go take a nap...you need more sleep than you have been getting.

It is treatable with effort. With the young ones, it is treatable. It is finite. It is not the end of the world. And if it was all that contagious, why haven't ALL the cattle, goats and sheep already died off from it?

:grouphug: Easy hon, we'll get through this, okay?

Caliann can I just say you are one amazing woman? :)

Justine

I am so sorry, you do know that they haven't actually grown a culture yet right? Cause it takes at least 7 weeks minium. It not like they can make it grow faster then it's nature.

The first test was Direct PCR that came back positive. Then I sent feces and blood to a different lab. The lab was told to grow culture and confirm with PCR. They did a direct PCR and it was positive. Now they are doing the culture like I asked in the first place. Then the blood ELISA test results came yesterday as positive. so that it 3 positives. Yes the culture can take many weeks and there still is that test. But I'm convinced. :(

This made me laugh....thanks Caliann

Yes, I was loosing it. or I lost it whatever. Sometimes hysterical crying makes me insane. I went to bed for awhile and I woke up not crying. Now I'm going back to bed.
Thank you so much everyone.

I'm so sorry about the outcome of the tests. :(

I'm printing this and taping it on my monitor and bathroom mirror.

I looked up powdered fenugreek seeds and was about to order it but then read that it suppresses the appetite. I don't think I want her appetite suppressed at all. And it doesn't say in the article how much how often. I'll keep researching

I think I need to print and tape up this one too...

Agree. Please stop torturing yourself!!! All that will accomplish is to make you crazy. Your dh and your animals need you. Take a deep breath, accept the situation and move forward as best you can.

If it were me I'd do the forage only diet. Anecdotally it has worked with cows and you and Gretta have nothing to lose. If nothing else maybe it would extend her time with you by keeping her gut in as natural and strong a condition as possible. I'd also be seriously researching herbs I could give her to help her try and heal her gut.

I'm so sorry this has happened to your Gretta. Hang in there, you'll be ok.

You have no choice, right?

I'm much better today. Thank you so much for helping me and putting up with my meltdown :ashamed:

Now back to trying to get Gretta better. I really can't fast her. She is just too thin and weak and I feel like it would be cruel. I could do it for a day....maybe but not for a whole week.
I sent that article from Johnes website about using anti-biotics to my vet and will wait to see what he thinks about that.

I wonder if Slippery Elm Bark would be good for her gut. She is still getting ProbiosMax twice a day.
She is eating very rich alfalfa and about half a handful of whole oats. Maybe I should cut the oats out? I just wish she would start putting on some weight.

Everyone was happy and cozy this morning :)

Michelle is the 1/2 hand full of oats all she eats as for grain or is that all you give her? I have a 17 plus year old mini doe, she looks just like Gretta minus the horns that since May of this year has to stay locked up in the barn away from the others becasue she is blind and is very unsteedy on her feet and the others are way to rough with her and she will get knocked down, not on purpose, but by accident if I let her out with the others. Two of the others just happen to be two of her last four babies that she raised that she had back in March of 2003 and they know good and well she's their mother:) On the weekends I lock the others in the barn for several hours when the weather is good and I'm at home and I let Tabetha out to do as she pleases in the pasture. Tabetha eats probably 32oz of grain daily, oats, afalfa pellets, beet bulp, a hand full of sweet feed and then is looking for her treats of goat cookies, and carrots, celary, and what ever else I walk out with she'll eat and she has hay in front of her 24/7. Tabetha for her age is a fat gal for sure. Something mine all love when the weather is cold is beet bulp soaked in boiling water, I let it soak for 10 to 15 mintues and they love it steaming hot, I just put in a enough boiling water so its not soupy, but fluffs up. I think I would try at this point with Gretta feeding her as much as she'll eat and not withhold anything. I would still concider seperating Tinker and Pony from all the others, but thats up to you.

Easy there, killer. I wasn't telling you what to do, just trying to help you find the info on the page, that's all.

Deep breaths. I'm glad you're feeling better today. Just remember the first rule; Don't Panic.

I found something today about humans with Crohn's apparently being cured of the MAP bacterium by an antibiotic regimen by a doc out of Australia. Here's a link to a blog where a person in the comments says this: I would like to note that I happen personally to be a person who seems to have been “cured” of Crohn’s Disease, by all measurable parameters, on a protocol derived by Dr. Thomas Borody of Australia, using antibiotics specifically targeting MAP as the putative cause of Crohn’s.

The comment above is by a Judith Lipton and she states she is a physician.

The Most Important Disease You Probably Never Heard Of - Brainstorm - The Chronicle of Higher Education

It might be worth checking out the regimen he uses and consult with a vet to see if it could be compatible with or adapted to goat treatment.

Okay, folks, for the naturopaths, naturalists, etc., offering all natural diets and home remedies for Gretta, this is what the bacteria does and WHY Gretta is skinny:

"The animal's immune system reacts to the M. paratuberculosis invasion by recruiting more macrophages and lymphocytes to the site of the infection. The lymphocytes release a variety of chemicals signals, called cytokines, in an attempt to increase the bacterial killing power of the macrophages. Macrophages fuse together, forming large cells, called multinucleated giant cells, in an apparent attempt to kill the mycobacteria. Infiltration of infected tissues with millions of lymphocytes and macrophages leads to visible thickening of the intestines. This prevents nutrient absorption, and wasting results."

This is what we are dealing with here. Gretta is loosing weight because her body is trying to fight off the bacteria, and by doing so, the walls of her rumen and intestines are getting too thick for her to absorb nutrients through them. What is more, unless her immune system is suppressed, it will only get worse. We cannot, at this time, give her a "healthy gastro-intestinal tract" because it is the immune response of her own body that is causing the problem.

In other words, she is slowly starving to death because her own body is blocking off any way for her to absorb nutrients..

Given that information, do you still suggest that Min try to fast Gretta for a week, or that she switch Gretta to a harder-to-digest roughage diet, or fill her full of herbs? If Gretta is given ANYTHING that will boost her immune system, that system is only going to make more mega-cells that thicken the walls of her intestinal tract, causing her to starve faster.

Please have an understanding of the exact problem before dispensing remedies that worked for so-and-so, which remedies many of you don't even understand yourselves, only that it worked for so-and-so.

*******************************************

Min, my own advise is to put Gretta back on the soups. You can add Red Cell or other supplements as well. Also, put her back on Replamin. It has vitamins and minerals in the most easily absorb-able forms, which is important for her system. By making the mashes, which is, in essence, cooking the food for her, the heat breaks down the carbs and proteins into things that are easily absorbed, and smaller, so they can make it through those thick walls in her digestive track. Also, go back to grains. The Senior Equine, or Mare-and-Foal is fine. You want SIMPLE carbs and SIMPLE proteins, and SIMPLE fats in her diet now. In fact, everything that you were ever told was bad for them because it would make them fat? Give those things to Gretta. If it were me, I would be giving her a diet of corn meal mush mixed with vegetable oil and top-dressed with corn syrup. Twice a week (maybe more often, depending) I would mix in 3cc of Replamin Plus Gel for easily digestible vitamins and minerals, because she can no longer get these things from her food.

All the junk food she was never supposed to have? Give it to her now. She needs it. See if you can buy animal crackers in 50lb lots. :)

Thank you, Cliff! That was the antibiotic program I was trying to find! Even if Gretta is too far to be helped, it could be used for any of the others.

I understand how Johne's works Caliann.

MAP thrives in an acidic environment. It also digests carbohydrates and produces more acid which is thought to do the initial damage to the tissue. The thinking is that by removing high carbohydrates thereby lowering the acid in the gut (and also depriving the organism of easy food) the gut has the best chance of starting to heal itself.

You can temporarily feed the animal richer feeds till the gut gets so bad that nothing at all can be digested, or you can give the gut a chance to start healing itself. Getting the gut healed is the only way the animal will survive more than short term.

As I said, that is what I would do. I did not suggest that Michelle do so, just putting out information for her to consider.

http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/v...griculture.jpg

This top photo is a photo of infected intestinal track, infected with Johnes'
The bottom photo is a photo of a normal intestinal track,.

Which one do you think is going to absorb nutrients better.. Answer >Bottom Photo

The above post is a great post CaliannaG!!!

I will also remind everyone that we had a Johne's positive cow in the explosive diarrhea stage hold good condition for 8 months on only grass/grass hay. We had to get rid of her for other reasons so I cant say for sure that she would've eventually converted to a negative status. But for her to hold good condition for that long at that stage of Johne's is unheard of.

That was when I realized we needed to stop feeding our ruminants grain.

First of all, it's an intestinal tract. Second, if you don't find a way to heal the intestine the animal dies no matter how much of anything you feed it.

I agree with Cliff. But, it's all a choice and everyone has to make the best choice for their animals. I don't get that it has to be anything other than that.

I come from a natural medicine point of view. Not only for the animals, but definitely for us humans in this family. The Fenu whatever that I don't know how to spell..:D is meant to use when you put the animal on a fast..it cuts the appetite so that they are not pacing and begging to eat. Or at least that's my take.

When we take away browse and pastures we are trying to change that gut. We are saying to that animal's gut..eat this..change the way you were built to digest. I don't personally think that that works out in the end very well.

And as long as I'm at it, pelleted feed is a puzzle to me. What's really in it? Are ya feeding any meat scraps to your ruminant? How about those alfalfa pellets? Are they Monsanto's GMO? I read those scientist's papers about their fears and warnings on some of this GMO stuff..it didn't sound good for animal or man.

Are we depending too much on meds, vaccines and chemical this and thats? I think so..just my opinion. The more we intervene, the less the goats or other animals' immune systems work and get hardy.

I'm probably totally wrong. And I certainly am not advising anyone on anything. But for me and mine, I think we will go more towards the past than the future.

This is wrong, Cliff....which is why your natural treatment program would be wrong.

MAP actually invades the macrophlanges and reproduces INSIDE the macrophlange cells, until there are so many that the cells burst open, releasing the bacteria. That is WHY the body beefs up the macrophlanges, in order that the things will do their work, and not be eaten instead.

The MAP bacteria does not feed off of carbs in the digestive track, or cause high acidosis. It feeds on the very cells that are used by the body to destroy bacteria. That is what makes it so invasive...it invades the body's defenses and *eats* them.

This is why changes in diet do not affect the bacteria much. It lives and reproduces inside the macrophlange cells, NOT inside the digestive tract as a larger environment.

:Bawling::Bawling::Bawling::Bawling::Bawling:
((HUGS))

Ok I need to find the study I read (a while back) that discussed how acid and carbohydrates play a part. I don't have time now unfortunately.

~sighs~ I wish I could get ya'll to understand biology more.

Please tell me how diet is supposed to heal the damage done to the intestinal tract by the hosts own body? That's not bacteria or scarring that you are seeing in that picture, that is huge complexes of macrophlange colonies. Do you suggest feeding a diet of teasel and cactus spines in the attempt to try to shave that down into something that will absorb a calorie or two?

And Cliff, I am curious about your cured cow....did you run the ELISA, PRC, or slow culture on her, or a mixture, to determine that her explosive diarrhea was caused by Johne's Disease? Are you stating that ALL cow at that stage of Johne's disease can be cured of it by simply changing their diet? Or is it possible that, if Johne's was what was causing her problem, that you got lucky and just had a really exceptional cow, or divine intervention, and the diet change had nothing to do with it?

Because, you see, I live in cattle country, where there are thousands of acres of cattle roaming and consuming nothing but that "all natural" grass and forage diet you are talking about. And you know what? Some of those cattle waste away and drop dead from Johne's disease on that diet...and they have had that diet for a LONG time. So how can you say that a grass/grass hay diet will cure Gretta when there are thousands of beef cattle on that very diet who are dying from Johne's every year?

You see, I know, and Min knows, that Gretta is dying. I REALLY appreciate you finding the antibiotic treatment. It MIGHT be able to save Gretta, but we all know that is unlikely. However, it could be the *real* savoir of the rest of the herd. But what we are trying to do with Gretta is to keep her as comfortable as possible as long as possible. At this stage, no amount of sand paper is going to thin those walls to make them fully functional again...that is why cattle are out on the ranges, eating their purely natural grass diet, and dying of thickening intestinal walls due to Johne's Disease....the diet cannot combat the power of a healthy body in immune overload to kill itself.

~sighs~ I know this sounds harsh, but I don't want Min torturing herself and Gretta with every remedy to come out of someone's grandpa, or or crazy Uncle Ed, that this critter had that (without any back up tests to prove it), and Aunt Ellen's sister Bee gave THIS, and *praise be to God*, the critter was CURED!

Diet isn't enough. If the all natural diet was all it took, than none of the cattle out here, who spend every day, all day, on nothing but free range, would ever die of Johne's, would they? Fasting won't do it. Why fast a starving, emaciated animal? To add the feelings of an empty belly to all of her other problems? Any studies, any proof whatsoever that your ideas work? Other than that they are "natural"?

~sighs again~ I know ya'll mean well. As they say, the Road to Hell is paved with good intentions. I just think it is along the lines of telling someone that has just been diagnosed with Stage 4 cancer that they could get rid of it if they would just drink some ginseng and ginko tea.

I like you Caliann..you know that. But I think you go too far sometimes.

I for one won't suggest any of my uneducated "uncle bill" remedies anymore.

I thought..and I was wrong..that there was room for discussion and other people's ways and thoughts. Like Pat Colby's way of doing copper and stuff seems to be okay on this forum. But her way of dealing with Johnes is not..right?

Just because someone suggests something doesn't mean that Min or anyone else has to use it. BUT, there may very well be someone sitting out here that does want to hear about a different way. I very much enjoy reading and researching what Cliff and others write about.

VERY UNCOOL:
~sighs~ I know this sounds harsh, but I don't want Min torturing herself and Gretta with every remedy to come out of someone's grandpa, or or crazy Uncle Ed, that this critter had that (without any back up tests to prove it), and Aunt Ellen's sister Bee gave THIS, and *praise be to God*, the critter was CURED!

Diet isn't enough. If the all natural diet was all it took, than none of the cattle out here, who spend every day, all day, on nothing but free range, would ever die of Johne's, would they? Fasting won't do it. Why fast a starving, emaciated animal? To add the feelings of an empty belly to all of her other problems? Any studies, any proof whatsoever that your ideas work? Other than that they are "natural"?

~sighs again~ I know ya'll mean well. As they say, the Road to Hell is paved with good intentions. I just think it is along the lines of telling someone that has just been diagnosed with Stage 4 cancer that they could get rid of it if they would just drink some ginseng and ginko tea.


My best to Min and Gretta.

The soup I made for her was made from Mare & Foal pellets. She stopped eating it but I can try it again. Maybe put some Slippery Elm Bark in it. One of the problems is she is VERY picky about what she eats. She will not eat animal crackers anymore, or BOSS. She will only eat 1/2 a handful of whole oats and then stops. She eats a lot of the alfalfa but will not eat alfalfa pellets anymore. She will eat saltine crackers.

Wow, evidently someone died and made you God and I missed it? Is this still a public forum or do we now need to check in with you to get our posts approved before posting?

I am going to choose to continue to believe that you don't understand how incredibly insulting you can be because I like you and don't want to believe that you are doing this on purpose. Maybe it's the TBI you had, idk. I actually sat down and considered this and I decided that don't want to believe that you would purposely be that unkind.

Some things necessitate thinking outside the box. If there were multiple studies documenting the complete mechanisms of action and the cure for Johne's there would be no problem, would there? There aren't. Even the antibiotic therapy is anecdotal at this point. I read something that suggested what I posted had been effective for someone with cows. My diagnosed Johne's cow had very encouraging results on the same regimen. Should I just not mention that? Isn't helping one another with our individual experiences what this forum is for?

If I had listened to conventional wisdom I'd be crippled in a wheelchair with RA right now. I didn't like the answers I was getting so I investigated on my own. I no longer have RA, to the astonishment of my doctors.

Since you have repeatedly indicated how ignorant I am I feel it necessary to say that I have a Bachelors degree in science with a 4.0 GPA. I do a job that 90% of people in my field are unable to do. I hold certifications that even fewer are able to attain. I don't like saying that because I don't want to appear to brag. But I am not an idiot.

Min I'm sorry this ugliness has been dragged into the middle of your thread. I really feel for what you are going through. I've been meaning to ask you about Gretta's weight. In the only picture I saw she didn't look too bad but it might not have shown her clearly? Compared to your other goats I could tell she was thinner but your other goats are pretty um.... robust... for goats :).

:grouphug: I am so sorry Minelson

I hate to ask Minelson but could she be in pain and thus refusing food? I mean if you look at the inflamation of the intestines in that pic I imagine that would cause severe discomfort and pain. People and animals in pain don't eat.

Also with the times she seems content and lying down watching the others could that be when her body is in a state of euphoria?

I just watched this disturbing show on NatGeo about an Indian (India) religion where they commit themselves to a timed suicide. The nun they followed was 12 yrs into it. Starting with eating once a day and then a month before she stopped all food only taking milk and juice and water. Then only water. Once she stopped water she took 8 days to die. Inbetween the pain and thrashing she would experience euphoria, become coherent for a bit then repeat. As she was starving to death just a thought... this woman's ups and downs made me think of Gretta.

Just remember you gave her an excellent life and more love than she could dream of.

I would prefer to hear all ideas. That is all I'm going to say about that.
DbarJacres...I was thinking along the same lines....She may be suffering now :( I am planning on contacting the Johnes site and asking them about that.
Cliff...she looks so small. My mom came today to visit and hasn't seen her in about 2 years and she was shocked at her size. When you put your hands on her you can feel every bone. And even the bones on her face are pronounced. Ok...I'm going to loose it again. This is just too painful for me.
She would not eat the soup I made for her tonight but she ate 4 saltines, tons of alfalfa and that is it.
What I need to know now is if she is suffering. If she feels a constant hunger that can't be quenched.

Michele to be honest I think you will be the only one who can tell if she is truly suffering. She can't tell you in words but you know her and what she is like. If she truly is suffering I think you will know and make the right choice either way. Making that last decision for them if the worst.

When my old boy got to that point I knew in my heart he was ready. I wasn't ready but his eyes told me he was ready to go home (I am crying now thinking about it). Making that call and knowing I what I was deciding to do was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. I guess what I am saying is that when that time comes (maybe sooner or maybe later) I think you will know in your heart. When she is no longer happy in life no matter what and she just has that tired look I think that is when we must finally say "Until we meet again my dear friend".

I am so so sorry Michele that both of you are going through this. Watching someone you love waste away be it animal or human is one of the worst things. I did it with my old boy and then again a few months later when cancer took my Grandpa. Oh how my heart aches for you :(. ((((((((hugs))))))))

I'm sorry, so sorry, you have to try to sort things out with poor Gretta doing poorly.
I just wish that things were different. I think you are wonderful to work so hard at this.

I am so sorry to hear about Greta. As for the other goats, really, take it one day at a time!
Does anyone have any specific questions or topics that they would like me to ask the vet from my blog? I plan on talking to him this week and will update with any topics or questions anyone would have...?

Thanks Wiscgoat...Yes. I have a question. Gretta is on Prednisone and that is what is keeping her going now. I am wondering, does she constantly feel like she is starving? In a suffering way I mean. In other words, is the pred masking any suffering that might be going on? :(