the hoo-hah watch is on...

JBarGFarmKeeper · #61 11/11/12, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

Ummmm....symptoms sound to me like Listeria/Goat polio. Much more like Listeria. Encephalatic Listeria is sometimes brought on by late pregnancy.

~sighs~ Gena? Any experience with Listeria? Alice is rather busy with have a broken hubby and getting moved, and this one is a bit out of my experience. Dona? Anyone else?

yes, what Minelson said...Thiamine. Without stargazing I wouldn't think of Listeriosis. I would definitely give Thiamine though. I am thinking nerve issues too. I'm with "Squeaky", this mama can't walk for a month before she has her babies either because of HORRIBLE hip pain! Still have it, to some extent, 7 months later.

Get that girl on DIRT! The plywood she'd on is slick-looking and the urine will just make it worse. Be careful "slinging" her as this could potentially cut off circulation to the kids if not only for a few minutes. Physical therapy is a MUST! It takes very little time for muscles to atrophy when a body is down.

Shayanna · #62 11/12/12, 07:53 AM

We can't keep her on dirt all the time, the weather doesn't allow for it. We have put a rug, covered with straw under her so it isn't that slippery. We also don't have the facility or the supplies to make a sling, but when we do go bring her outside and she acts like she wants to get up, we help her. We are continuing the honey, thiamine, tums, and pcn (as a precaution), since we seem to be seeing improvement.

JBarGFarmKeeper · #63 11/12/12, 08:11 AM

To clarify, I didn't mean on "bare dirt", I meant on dirt with deep bedding. In my opinion shavings do a better job than straw at absorbing. My purpose for saying that is the drainage. You can change the bedding when it's all over (and lay down lime) but on plywood, I would think, it would be colder and MESSIER for both of you.

Shayanna · #64 11/12/12, 08:42 AM

At this point, I don't care if any of the kids make it. I just want Fern to be okay. And there is a drain hole in the shed.

JBarGFarmKeeper · #65 11/12/12, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayanna

At this point, I don't care if any of the kids make it. I just want Fern to be okay. And there is a drain hole in the shed.

Shayanna, I think you are taking me the wrong way. I am NOT picking on/at you. I'm just saying that it is easier to "get traction" on the ground with bedding than on plywood. I am not saying you aren't doing the best you can. The 26th is 2 weeks away and for an adult doe to be down that long without getting up, it is going to be a REAL challenge. If you KNOW the ABSOLUTE due date you may want to think about getting the induction drugs and doing what Yarrow does to induce hers. The faster you can "unburden" Fern the better it will be for her. As heavy as she is with kids, it will be hard for her to get up on her own until the "weight is lifted".

Shayanna · #66 11/12/12, 08:07 PM

i know and i'm sorry i sounded so snippy. i'm just freaking out a bit because we dont really have the money for anything. our deal for this house was to catch up the back taxes and its ours. but with my husband being laid off and me on unpaid maternity leave, we've been having to dip into our saved up tax money for bills, stuff for fern, etc. atleast i'm back to work now but thats another 2 weeks for a check.
anyway, i actually was thinking about induction earlier and i do think its the best option. she was bred on 6/29, the day we got her, to our alpine buck. 150 days brings us to the 26th of november if i'm right. what do i need to induce? and how can i get it at a low price so i don't break the bank? and obviously fern is my highest priority, but how early can kids be born and possibly live?

JBarGFarmKeeper · #67 11/12/12, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayanna

i know and i'm sorry i sounded so snippy. i'm just freaking out a bit because we dont really have the money for anything. our deal for this house was to catch up the back taxes and its ours. but with my husband being laid off and me on unpaid maternity leave, we've been having to dip into our saved up tax money for bills, stuff for fern, etc. atleast i'm back to work now but thats another 2 weeks for a check.
anyway, i actually was thinking about induction earlier and i do think its the best option. she was bred on 6/29, the day we got her, to our alpine buck. 150 days brings us to the 26th of november if i'm right. what do i need to induce? and how can i get it at a low price so i don't break the bank? and obviously fern is my highest priority, but how early can kids be born and possibly live?

The drugs are dex and Lute but I don't know the dosages and both are vet scripts. Is anyone close to you? Yarrow is the expert with this stuff. I would say 5 days early would be safe (maybe), you'll need to ask the expert. If you want to save your doe I would definitely make this a priority and get her up as much as possible! She needs to keep the strength in her legs AND keep circulation to her organs and those babies. This may be tough. CALIANN...Where are YOU?!

CaliannG · #68 11/12/12, 10:46 PM

I am here now. Sorry! I went on a house cleaning binge!

Lute is 2.5 ml to induce labor. Lute is a vet script, but the drug itself is fairly cheap. I use oxytocin in conjunction with it instead of des. 1.5 ml on the oxy, both delivered IM. NO MORE than 1 week before the due date if you want the kids to have a chance at life, and then, you will HAVE to bring them inside and raise them yourself. They may not be able to regulate their temperature when they are born, so that means a heated "brooder box" for them for a while, as well as feedings every three hours. (Yes, through the night as well.)

In the mean time, honey is NOT enough to keep the toxemia at bay. Seriously, you need to POUR carbs down her. Give her enough grain/concentrates that it is barely a step more to free-feeding them to her. Top dress with sugar cubes. Simple carbohydrates in mass is what will keep her going for another week. Honestly, if she were mine, she'd have lactation pellet in front of her every moment I was home, and I'd be checking on her every 3 hours, as well as making her doe gatorade the consistency of pancake syrup with all of the sugary stuff I was putting into it.

Honestly, check your house. Half a box of super sweet Fruity Pebbles that no one is going to eat? Give it to Fern. Oatmeal cookies? Give them to Fern. ANYTHING that is high in sugar or starch? Give it to Fern. Plain table sugar? Honestly, give it to Fern.

If it is something that you wouldn't feed a toddler because you don't want said toddler vibrating on the ceiling with a sugar rush, give it to Fern. She should be eating super high carb stuff every moment that she is eating anything. Mix a bottle of Karo syrup in her hay...everything and anything you can think of.

I understand being broke. That's why I am telling you to use stuff that you will likely find in your house, or is cheap at the grocery store. Honestly, hon, get sugars into her...as much as your can and as fast as you can. Because if she gets enough sugars to combat the toxemia, it is possible that you won't HAVE to induce. If by pouring sugar into her she is up and moving *on her own* in two days, then you won't have to, and the kids have a much better chance at survival.

But if she stays down, you will have to induce to save her.

CaliannG · #69 11/12/12, 10:53 PM

Adding this to what I have already said: If she gives birth, it will NOT cure the ketosis. It will just be less demand on her carbohydrates than being in milk, but being in milk is STILL a high demand on carbs. Those milk sugars don't come from air, they come from her body, so you are *still* going to have to pour carbs down her until she is putting out less than she is taking in AND her reserves are built back up. Inducing will NOT be a cure for her problem, because at this late stage, she will just go right into milk production.

Shayanna · #70 11/13/12, 02:42 AM

raiding the kitchen now. i will call around for vets today. the one i talked to before is very unlikely to listen to me if i ask her. just went outside and fern is being super talkative. odd considering its 3am. but jmaybe she is just telling rocky, our jersey steer, to shut up, its 3am.

Shayanna · #71 11/13/12, 02:43 AM

and good news is i sold barley so that helps for the fern fund.

Jyllie63 · #72 11/13/12, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayanna

and good news is i sold barley so that helps for the fern fund.

that has to be a relief for you! Fern is 13 days away from her due date. If you can somehow get her up several times a day (even for just a few minutes each time) and keep giving her the carbs and calcium I would feel optimitistic that she could pull through this. Even if you induce her, she will have to give birth. Dealing with dead/premature kids is not fun and it could be traumatic for Fern. It sounds like she is stable (no better no worse). Keep up the good work!

Shayanna · #73 11/13/12, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jyllie63

It sounds like she is stable (no better no worse). Keep up the good work!

Thanks. I guess I didn't think of it that way. Every time I go out there and I hear her voice, or see that she is eating, I feel so proud, like she is actually trying. At least she hasn't given up. And we won't either. I love her sweet alto voice, and I don't want it to stop. And now that I think about it, she is holding her ears a little more normally and isn't grinding her teeth anymore.

Shayanna · #74 11/13/12, 08:15 AM

And my husband is going to make her grain into a cocktail this morning, with cheerios, apple, honey, and whatever other sweet stuff he can find around the house. She'll will get that along with her tums and that will atleast distract her from the vitamin B shot. After this is all done, I think the dh might be her favorite person.

Minelson · #75 11/13/12, 09:36 AM

So glad that Fern is hanging in there..you are such a good goat mama!!

7thswan · #76 11/13/12, 10:43 AM

You should beable to get day old bakery goods real cheep. We used to go to the Hostess factory and get truck loads. Fruit pies,Ho Hos' , cinnamon rolls with frosting ect. Even check your local grocerys,bakerys, tell them what it's for, they might even have used buckets filled with frosting ,fillings.

momagoat61 · #77 11/13/12, 10:53 AM

Ok i'm coming in on this one! Calianna is right you need to get high calcium into your doe some how or another... In 1999 on April 1st / April Fools day I had a doe that went down with toxemia and had to have emergency c section, I know she was due within 8 to 10 days of the c-section so I opped for a c-section. The kids were small but i saved them. Pregnancy toxemia and ketosis are the result of the high carbohydrate (energy) demand of multiple fetuses in late pregnancy. The kids require an increasing amount of carbohydrates the last trimester. Does bearing twins have a 180% higher energy requirement than those with just a single fetus. Does carrying triplets have a 240% greater energy requirement. When this demand exceeds the supply, fat is metabolized into glucose. The metabolic needs of the kids are met at the expense of the dam; this is what causes the ketotic condition. To complicate matters, multiple fetuses produce more waste products, which leads to the doe becoming toxic if she does not flush them from her system.

Risk Factors for Pregnancy Toxemia

Multiple fetuses
Poor quality of ingested energy
Dietary energy level
Environment
Genetic factors
Obesity
Lack of good body condition or high parasite load
Confinement - lack of exercise
Toxemia and ketosis are typically seen in does that are overweight and get little exercise. Under weight animals that are fed a poor quality feed are also candidates for toxemia. Look for does at the bottom and top of the pecking order. These does may be getting to much or not enough feed. Does should be in good body condition, and not overly fat when bred. They can be maintained on good roughage or forage during the first 100 days of pregnancy. During the last trimester the doe should gain approximately 1/2 lb. per day. The doe must intake enough carbohydrates to supply the demand of the growing fetuses and to keep her alive and functioning also.

I also believe that we are seeing an increase in toxemia this year due to the extended drought conditions. With these conditions the quality of the feed changes, the browse is limited, and the animals do not receive the vitamins and minerals that they get naturally from high quality feeds and browse. Extremely wet conditions, especially if following a prolonged drought can also cause a dramatic and quick increase in the worm load, and cause the doe to drop enough body condition to become a candidate for toxemia.

When there is a decrease of glucose levels in the doe's brain, they tend to lay down, become sluggish, and show a loss of appetite. They may get stiff, and walk with a staggering gait. Swelling (edema) of the lower limbs is not uncommon. Some does may also grind their teeth. Keto acidosis is also common during toxemia and needs to be treated also. As the disease progresses, the neurological systems become compromised due to lack of glucose. Blindness, stargazing, tremors, aimless walking, ataxia (uncoordinated staggering gait), are seen and eventually the doe becomes comatose. At this stage the fetuses succumb and release toxins that send the doe into endotoxic shock, and death. Does that survive toxemia need to be watched for dystocia, and lactational ketosis.

Diet should include high quality roughage and increased concentrates. At fist sign of decreased appetite, or unwillingness to rise, managers need to be wary. Exercise should be offered and forced if necessary. Some type of high-energy supplement needs to be given to keep the doe from coming ketotic. The carbohydrate (energy) level of the diet needs to be increased. This can be accomplished by adding corn, fresh alfalfa hay, or a soybean supplement to the diet. Increasing the protein does not necessarily increase the energy level.

High Energy Supplements

Propylene Glycol
Nutri-drench
Dextrose
Environment
Magic (1 part Molasses, 2 parts Kayro, 1 part Corn Oil)
Glucose IV
B Complex, thiamin, probiotics, and penicillin should also be given as support therapy. 3cc B Complex and 500mg thiamin should be given twice daily. Probiotics should be given at least daily, and a large initial dose of penicillin followed by substantial doses for 5 days total should also be administered. This also helps prevent primary and secondary pneumonia.

If the kids are within 7 days of due date, and the doe does not respond immediately to treatment, giving 20-25mg dexamethasone can induce labor. Labor will begin within 48 hours. Dexamethasone is preferred over hormonal induction of parturition because of its beneficial stimulus to appetite. Also, dexamethasone may also prepare the lungs of marginally immature kids increasing their chances of survival during labor or cesarean. Valuable does that fail to respond within 24 hours should have a cesarean immediately. Even with surgery and fluids, prognosis is poor for the survival of both the doe and kids.

The key to treating toxemia is catching the subtle symptoms promptly. Fist concern is to hydrate the doe and get enough sugars to the brain to get if functioning properly. We have been successful treating does with 50% Dextrose solution and magic. We give 20cc magic two to four times daily at first signs of toxemia. If the doe is completely off feed or becoming lethargic we give 4 ounces 50% dextrose (1/2 dextrose, ½ water) with 3cc B Complex, 500mg thiamin, 50cc Calcium Glutamate (orally) and probiotics. The dextrose solution is repeated every hour until the doe is standing, drinking, and urinating. We have also found it helpful to give water (drench if necessary) at every treatment. Once these does quit moving, they don't get up and drink, as they should. We give one pint of water with every treatment.

Be cautious given electrolytes or products that are high in sodium. Although in a pinch they will work to hydrate the animal, you don't want to give long term anything that has a lot of sodium in it. That is why we use the dextrose instead of oral electrolytes. You need to make sure that the doe urinates, giving a mild diuretic such as cranberry juice may also be helpful. The does need to flush the toxins from their system.

When the doe starts to respond we start decreasing the treatment intervals. Treatment is dropped to 4 times a day, and if the doe is back on her feed and eating well, we just give the magic mixture two to three times daily. The doe may scour the first couple of days & Pepto-Bismol or kaopectate can be given to relieve the dietary scours. Don't be terribly concerned if the doe scours it is caused by the drastic dietary changes and will clear up as the doe continues to eat.

Propylene glycol can be given orally at the rate of 4 ounces, 4 times daily. Nutri-drench can be substituted for propylene glycol, and is easier to dose orally - it doesn't taste quite as offensive to the doe. Intravenous glucose (25-50 grams - in a 5 or 10% solution), and B Vitamins, can also be given. If probiotics are not available give baking soda orally to prevent acidosis these need to be given at least once a day. Dextrose (50%) can be given IV in a single 60-100ml dose, followed by a 5% dextrose solution in an electrolyte drip. Be careful giving commercially prepared and oral electrolytes, they are usually high in sodium.

Ketoacidocis is precipitated by metabolism of fat. When the doe is not consuming an adequate amount of carbohydrate, that she metabolizes fat to make glucose. The byproduct of this is ketones, which must be secreted by the kidneys. The doe must have a fluid intake to allow this to happen. That is why plain water is given, drenched, or tubed, along with the 50% glucose, and other support therapy. When enough glucose is present, fat is not metabolized, and the body has time to get rid of it. As this happens, the doe will become more alert, and start to eat and drink on her own. This is a vicious cycle, and difficult to break. If caught early, and treated concienciously, the cycle can be broken. The doe must be monitored carefully until the kids are born, condition can change quickly and needs to be responded in a timely fashion.
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