the hoo-hah watch is on...

CaliannG · #41 11/09/12, 01:58 AM

Ummmm....symptoms sound to me like Listeria/Goat polio. Much more like Listeria. Encephalatic Listeria is sometimes brought on by late pregnancy.

~sighs~ Gena? Any experience with Listeria? Alice is rather busy with have a broken hubby and getting moved, and this one is a bit out of my experience. Dona? Anyone else?

Shayanna · #42 11/09/12, 08:43 AM

no fever or diarrhea. she is kind of leaning and holding her head one way, but that could be the position she is in. can't hurt to try some thiamine could it? what dose?

Minelson · #43 11/09/12, 09:00 AM

For 100mg Thiamine it's 4-1/2 cc per 100lbs
For 500mg Thiamine it's 1 cc per 100 lbs

CaliannG · #44 11/09/12, 10:54 AM

Goat polio is a thiamine deficiency, often caused by a heavy coccidia load. Listeriosis, while having many of the same symptoms, is caused by a bacteria that tends to bloom in late pregnancy, it is treated with an antibiotic run.

Since the symptoms are so similar in both, with just minor differences, they are often treated as the same disease, with folks giving an antibiotic run AND thiamine. I.e. treating for both diseases even though the likelihood is that they are suffering from only one.

The encephalitic listeriosis, however, is the one that tends to attack adult goats, and often shows up in late pregnancy when the body is stressed and the immune system is compromised.

This site ACES Publications : LISTERIOSIS (CIRCLING DISEASE) : UNP-0064 shows the symptoms, cause, and treatment for encephalitic listeriosis.

Although, since it tends to attack so fast and kill so quickly, it would seem to rule it out, hmmm? If she had it, she would likely already be dead. There is just something niggling at my brain that says teeth grinding + partial ataxia = something that should be treated and my brain is not co-operating with giving me an answer.

GoldenWood Farm · #45 11/09/12, 08:00 PM

CaliannG I thought Listeria as well but not all of her symptoms fit and like you said she would probably have been either in way worse condition or dead by now. I feel the same that something is nagging at my brain. I searched online trying to find out what it could be but nothing really fits...but something is nagging at me.

Justine

CaliannG · #46 11/09/12, 08:23 PM

Pregnancy Toxemia! That's it!

Treatment
The success of the treatment depends upon the
diagnosis of pregnancy toxemia in its early
stages. Does can be successfully treated with
60 to 90 ml of propylene glycol administered
orally 2 to 3 times per day, along with the
administration of insulin. Administer 20 to 40
IU protamine zinc insulin intramuscularly every
other day to help restore glucose uptake.
• Administering electrolyte solutions
containing 5 percent dextrose orally,
intravenously, or subcutaneously is also
recommended.

Her kids are sucking up her carbohydrates too fast, and she is burning off fat!

GoldenWood Farm · #47 11/09/12, 09:04 PM

THAT'S IT! I was thinking Ketosis but that just wasn't right but it was something to do with later pregnancy.

Justine

CJBegins · #48 11/09/12, 11:08 PM

You gals are GOOD!

Shayanna, I hope she turns around for you. Goats will make you learn from School of Hardknocks.....their is a lot to know!

Carla

Donna1982 · #49 11/10/12, 12:13 AM

Good luck and we are pulling for her.

Shayanna · #50 11/10/12, 03:40 PM

googled toxemia and ketosis. ketosis sounds right on the ball actually. fern is a lean goat to begin with, plus she is low on the pecking order too. and if there are multiple fetuses (which i wouldn't doubt with her gut size and all the kicks) they are probable sucking away her fat reserves and are down to sucking muscle mass, releasing ketones, i.e. ketosis. anorexic humans and those on the adkins diet get the same thing. we gave her some b complex yesterday and another shot today. the only difference i am seeing is when dh and i tried to get her to stand, IT WORKED! there was alot of leg buckling at first, but he grabbed the back end and i grabbed the front, and we helped her get her feet under her, and she actually stretched her legs and stood for a minute and munched hay while standing. i know shes only been down for like 3 days, but i'm proud that she is still willing to try. fingers crossed, it seems like progress.

CaliannG · #51 11/10/12, 04:49 PM

Up her grain, Shayanna. Give her all the carbs you can stuff down her.

Jyllie63 · #52 11/10/12, 05:12 PM

when I suspected my doe of having this in March, I upped the alfalfa pellets...gave her tums AND gave her some CMPK (she hated that stuff!). When I felt she was getting better I stopped the CMPK and just made sure to give the tums and alfalfa pellets.

Does she have swelling in her legs/ankles?

Shayanna · #53 11/10/12, 07:07 PM

no swelling. thought she was doing good, but since about 2pm today (its 8pm now), she has been super lethargic and got some mucus coming out of her nose so we gave her a pcn dose. poor thing. pulse was 100.

i feel like a bad goat mom. when i got the goats, i did all my reading. i printed so much information at work if they wouldve known about it they wouldve deducted half my paycheck. nothing prepared me for this! i guess the only real way to learn is the hard way, otherwise known as trial and error. atleast i have you guys.

Jyllie63 · #54 11/11/12, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayanna

no swelling. thought she was doing good, but since about 2pm today (its 8pm now), she has been super lethargic and got some mucus coming out of her nose so we gave her a pcn dose. poor thing. pulse was 100.

i feel like a bad goat mom. when i got the goats, i did all my reading. i printed so much information at work if they wouldve known about it they wouldve deducted half my paycheck. nothing prepared me for this! i guess the only real way to learn is the hard way, otherwise known as trial and error. atleast i have you guys.

has she had any more cmpk?

Shayanna · #55 11/11/12, 09:17 AM

called the only traveling vet in the area. not only is she too expensive, but she is in my opinion a "beyotch".... first because i say my goat is down, she assumes fern isn't eating, has diarrhea, a fever, and there is no saving her. when i finally get a chance to explain further, she starts alluding to various things but she is obviously trying not to tell me too much. she tells me the edible feed dewormer we just gave doesnt work worth a darn just cause its edible. she says i can give honey or karo syrup 4oz at first then 2oz 4 times a day. also that fern could use some thiamine. so i started saying i hacve high B comples, and she interrupts me saying its not enough, fern needs atleast 200 MCG, AND 2 ML at that. when i told her this stuff is 100 MG per ml and we followed the directions, she absolutely couldnt believe it had that much in it and that b "complex" was good enough. also when i told her about the cmpk and molasses water, she said its like giving pepsi instead of medicine. also "if she wasnt pregnant i would assume its polio". so there was a lot of her "hinting" around. supposedly we are going to lose her no matter what, but she just saved a doe in this condition. i'm not too impressed. either way, we gave fern honey and she LOVED it. idk what to think at this point

Jyllie63 · #56 11/11/12, 10:03 AM

Fern is still with you so you haven't lost her yet. You just need to be very pro-active with her. When my doe had this I used this website for great info Fias Co Farm- Goat Health Care- Ketosis & Pregnancy Toxemia . I don't know IF this is what Fern has, but with her symptoms and how far along she is in the pregnancy (my doe developed this about 4 months along) I don't think you can rule it out. I would personally treat for listeria and ketosis/toxemia. I would assume she is down because she is deficient. She really needs calcium. Do you have tums? I would give her a 2-3 every couple of hours as a snack.

Shayanna · #57 11/11/12, 10:41 AM

she is still working on her cmpk gatorade stuff. we got like 5 bottles of tums from the dollar store and have been doing what you said. she keeps acting like she wants to get up but cant work her back end right. she is a bit more talkative today after the honey and vit b injection though.

Jyllie63 · #58 11/11/12, 10:50 AM

...very encouraging

. I would try very hard to get her on her feet and let her stand. Even if she can't walk right now, stretching her legs out by standing would help.

Shayanna · #59 11/11/12, 12:18 PM

funny you should say that. today is unseasonably warm, so we left her shed open, we go inside, look out the window, and that goat was crawling out! so we go help her, the dh and i helped her stand for a few, picked her some browse which she scarfed like it was going out of style, and she was slurping away at the gatorade. (honey makes her quite thirsty.) aside from when she falls over, she is a little less uncomfortable acting and has less teeth grinding.

CaliannG · #60 11/11/12, 06:27 PM

Okay, the vet was actually right on a couple of things:

1. Edible goat dewormers are not worth a dang. The manufacturers never quite mask the taste of the medicine in them, and goats seldom eat enough of them to be effective at anything except raising the resistance of the parasite. Also, the compound they use in the edibles isn't a good one. Most parasites are already resistant to it.

In MI, I believe that Cydectin and Ivomectin still work well.

The other thing she was right about is giving her honey and/or Karo syrup. Grain helps too. Actually, ANYTHING that is high in carbs works well, you can pour a 5 lb bag of sugar into her feeder and it would work.

In fact, you could add sugar, honey, or Karo syrup to the Gatorade for her and it will help.