I'm just really struggling with projection along with in the moment stuff.

that is a fancy way of saying I'm a mess.

If I could, I'd fly on out and hold your hand until your hubby comes home.

Me, too! Really!

We here all totally understand. There was one goat that was so hard for me, just heartbreaking. I will be thinking of you. :grouphug:

Minelson, don't do anything rash. Get your head together and read the article on antibiotics...I searched myslef after reading this and found the smae thing mentioned a few times. IF your vet is up on this, I would get started right away. I 100% agree that if the rest are't showing symptoms leave them be for now after getting the test. Can you give antibiotics profilactically (sorry for spelling and typos, my own brain is reeling as well)?

This doesn't seem to be a death sentence if aggressively treated, from what I have read.

Oh Minelson - I'm so very sorry!

You need to just go to bed tonight - tomorrow will be another day you'll have with Gretta. Don't make any decisions until your DH gets home, and you can talk together. It'll be ok :grouphug:

I'm so sorry about Gretta! Try and take care of yourself too, it's easy to forget to do that at times like this.

NJEI: Testing I'm thinking retesting is is in order as it reads to be it takes a lot longer to culture fecal. I would blood test as well.

I am so sorry Michelle :Bawling: :Bawling: :Bawling:. I agree with everyone though take a day or two to think before deciding anything. I will be praying for you and Gretta! (((((((HUGGGGGGS))))))))

Justine

I know cyber arms are hard to feel, but we are all hugging you while you cry. We are crying with you. (((((((HUGGGGGGS))))))))

I first read this last night. I am so sorry. Farm life REALLY sucks sometimes! I just do not know what to say - wish you were closer :(

Can you put a sleeveless sweatshirt on her to keep her a bit warmer? I know people are afraid of heat lamps in their barn but maybe there is something else that she can keep her warm. Also a dog coat on top of the sweatshirt.
Will she drink out of a bottle? Maybe giving her smaller but more frequent feedings of high calorie food that is easy to digest would help.

I am so sorry you and Gretta are going through this. I have always enjoyed the adventures of Gretta and your other goats!

I didn't see your post on DGI, but did Vickie know about the Onyx minerals and the Replamin Gretta has been getting? Gretta should already have plenty of copper from that so maybe Vickie might have something different to say. It seems to me that Johnes sits in the gut of an infected goat until something else compromises the immune system and then the Johnes jumps into action. So the problem Gretta had a month or so ago might be what set it off and your other goats, if they even are infected, may not have any "trigger" event so the Johnes may never kick in. I would take that chance if they were my goats and were just pets. I also would have Gretta re-tested in every way possible just to rule out the possibility of a mistake. It can't hurt and with so many people praying for her, you might just get a miracle!

Hang in there, we are all pulling for you and Gretta!

Kitty

Azithromycin (Z-pack) is on that list of antibiotics -- in humans, it has a very long half life and it's not hideously inexpensive. I dunno if it's safe for goats, but it might be worth a try. In people it doesn't have too many side effects. Maybe do a pulse dose with it, and then another macrolide antibiotic that could be used as a maintenance dose.

I'm sorry to hear about Gretta -- I lost one of my favorite does recently, and it broke my heart, but in Xena's case it was the right decision to put her down. She'd broken her leg, it wasn't repairable, and she was in shock and a lot of pain. Sometimes, that's the right choice for the animal too.

*hugs*

Gretta is doing better today. The Dex and Thiamine must have helped. I wonder how long you can keep a goat on Dex before the liver fails.
I am doing a lot of research on anti-biotics and will talk to the vet about it.
Today she does not seem like a goat that needs to be put to sleep. My head is still spinning. There is so much info to absorb and of course so many different opinions. It's hard to know what to do :(

Michele, your lovely Gretta has had a most wonderful life with you - probably the best life of any goaties I know.

We've all come to love your animals through your pics, videos, and posts. Frankie and Gretta have been my favorites - until PonyBoy came along, of course.

Still, no matter the outcome of this nightmare, you can always know that you saved Gretta from a miserable life, and you shared her with us, which spread that unique "Gretta-joy" all around.

It is just so cosmically sad, and I wish I was there to give you a huge box of wine and a hug.

Glad she feels better today. I have been on Pred my whole like and my liver is fine. Once she's stable I would see what the smallestdose you can maintain her on is. I also look at it this way. You can't bring her back once she's put down to try new drugs but if she's still around and you have tried all the options and she starts to loose her quality of life you can then end her suffering. Concentrate on keeping her comfortable while doing some research. My vet has Chrohns disease, anklyosing spondylitis,and IBS. He is also the happiest guy I know. He takes coconut oil daily to help his gut. He is also a life long Pred user. I'm pretty sure if you asked him he would not want to be put down. Wait until you HAVE to do it. Hang in there hon we're all here for you.

Sorry to hear about Greta : (

Here is one of my favorite pictures of her. She is just glowing with happiness!

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b8...D550/ry%3D400/

Nothing i can.find supports the justification of putting her down becausr of the unreliable testing. Please get a blood test. I had the results in 3 days

Glad to hear she is doing a little better. I can see why she would be glowing with pride.
(Picture does make me glad that we don't have to clean our children with our tongues!)

All the knowledgable people here have left me with nothing to add to help you.
But about the dex, I might have some information to offer, although not goatie.
My horse Tessie developed a chewing problem (I mentioned it awhole back,) and the vet put her on a course of dex. It seemed to clear up the problem right away.
Then about 2 months later, she developed general neurological problems. So the vet put her on the 10 day dex course again but then to continue the low dose every other day (just squirted into the mouth- ha no shots). The vet said she can stay on this a long time. Indefinitely since it loooks like she has an untreatable condition.

I know horses are not goats but maybe the same?

Don't know if she had it or not but, did you know that animals that have had their CL vaccine cross-react on the Johne's test causing a false positive?
Hope you all figure it out.

Thats wonderful that Gretta is doing better today..She is interested in eating today as well? Keep a look out for Gretta's Package, She's got a little something coming her way!!!

No I didn't do the CL vaccine. But maybe someone snuck one in her. (wishful thinking)

I guess the next step is to continue the Dex/thiamine/tetracycline
Get a blood test done to confirm Johnes
Look into other possible anti-biotics

Since the negative test result is unreliable I don't see any reason to test the other goats.

Just trying to organize my thoughts :(

Hang in there- it's hard when the rug is snatched out from under your feet. It takes a bit to get your balance again.

Here's an anti-microbal map for Johne's and some info.
ANTIMICROBIAL THERAPY - JOHNE'S INFORMATION CENTER

I'm so sorry :(

Just got a call from one of the many vets that I have been working with to figure this out. I told him about the positive test and he said that the PCR test can find a needle in a haystack. Very reliable. He suggested that I take her to South Dakota State University and have them put her down and do a necropsy to be 100% sure. So I guess that means that the test is not 100% reliable. Right? Grrrr...

Maybe you should ask about the percentage of error and in what direction the error occurs. Some tests may have an error in negatives and others in positives.
I just had anEPM test done on my mare. One of those tests with a possible error. But always in the possitive direction. A postitive has a small chance of be wrong but a negative means that there is virtually no change of having EPM.

The test that was done is the most accurate by far. Not only did it grow (was viable from it's source) but the PCR confirmation eliminates a 'false positive' result. PCR means DNA was used to confirm that the bacteria growing was johnes disease and not something else.

You COULD do a PCR on a fecal and find Johnes DNA WITHOUT infection - say, in the case of calves recieving positive milk. They'd be shedding the DNA but *MIGHT* not infected/actively shedding the bacteria as it reproduces in their gut. BUT - in this case of a calf recieving positive milk, there is DNA but the culture would probably not grow (would be negative). Wait about 2 years, and there's a good chance that calf WOULD be johnes fecal culture positive, though. And ELISA positive, possibly as young as a year of age.

At this point in Gretta's life, she IS shedding the bacterium. That is confirmed by being able to culture (grow) Johnes from the feces. Once 'something' is growing in the culture, a PCR test is ran to check for the DNA for Johnes disease. DNA positives are about as accurate as you could ever ask for, especially in combination with a positive culture.

You have more of an issue with NEGATIVES - usually false negatives occur because the animal is not shedding the bacterium at the time of fecal collection. This is where the importance of retesting is based upon.

Blood tests are far less indicitive of infection than a fecal culture. They simply show antibodies - which are indicative of EXPOSURE but not necessarily active infection. They are, however, fast - and exposure results can make you decide wether or not to do further, more accurate testing.

Minelson, I had to read through the whole thread and kept hoping for the miracle of her being cured and you being at ease and happy despite the horrid scare. I see it is more of she seems to be doing better and you get to figure out what to do.

Personally we all have our opinions, and I want to say to trust your heart. You will know when it is more loving to hold her and let her move on or to hold her and help her be able to play and live happily despite meds etc. Dont take all your goaties to the bridge they are happy and living a wonderful life loving you. Will send lots of healing energies Gretta's way and hope that it all works out for the best for all of you.
I wish I had some wonderful enlightened gift of knowledge that would make this all go away. I will continue to light candles and ask all the spirits to help heal Gretta as well as your heart.

Mygoat, I don't think the test was cultured...it was just PCR. Does that make sense? I sent it in on the 17th and got the results on the 25th. Is that long enough for a culture to grow?

Sounds like they used direct PCR which looks for genetic material not living bacteria. So your next step is to make them grow out the culture to ensure that the MAP type DNA they found is truely living Johne's.

Also, Pony and Tinker have been moved out of the main barn and back into the nursery. That doesn't help though with gazzillion goat berries that are everywhere on the property. :( I wonder how long it lives in the soil.
I also find it strange that I read that Johnes doesn't show symptoms until 2-3 years after exposure. Gretta would have been exposed before I owned her which would have been at least 5 years ago.

I'm sorry about Your Goat. I'm posting in here because someone brought up people meds.
My Vet writes scripts for our dogs off of the walmarts 4 dollar list. My old Guy took Meloxican(anti-inflamority) instead of Novox/Rymadal. He took 1/2 a tab once a day,so that script lasted 2 months.My younger girl is takeing it now for broken bones in her paw.
Just thought you would like to know. Best of Luck.

Hmmm, I didn't know places offered a direct PCR test, with no culture.

Though, I would still say there's a good chance she IS positive. She's likely not currently ingesting tons of johnes at this stage in her life - usually it's injested as young goat kids 'mouth' things (like feces...) or as goat kids (or calves, or what-have-you) nurse infected dams. In those cases, yes you will see them shed the DNA of the organism directly from their feces but are not shedding it themselves (as in, the bacteria is not replicating in their bodies, or if they are it's in small amounts). But in Gretta's case - adult goats avoid eating feces like the plague, and the MAP would have to be coming from *somewhere* even if she was JUST ingesting it... Therefore, there is still a good chance the DNA is coming FROM her.

If you'd like reassurance, you can get a culture done. I'd send to a lab that does culture with PCR confirmation on any that go positive. (call lab you choose to make sure they confirm all positives with PCR) I would do a *normal* culture - not pooled or accellerated - which takes anywhere from 10-45 days to turn positive. Usually animals will go positive at 21 days along if they're going to. The fastest sample we've ever seen go positive here at DCPAH was at 11 days. It was from a goat. Several goats in that group turned positive FAST.

Thank you Dona

There is a very slim hope that a grown culture may show different.
The MAP bacteria is very very closely related to the MAH bacteria, they are both Psuedotuberculosis and both Mycoplasma.
MAH lives freely in our water sources. It is literally everywhere even in domestic drinking water, ponds, lakes, and creeks.
If they jumped the gun on seeing MAH and said positive because of her symptoms, having them grow the culture will double check them.

Like I said, it's a very slim hope.

I do not trust the test results. Where should I go from here.