You don't breed and sell, I would keep my goats as long as they were doing alright.

I would have to separate her from the rest...she is skinny, cold and disorientated when outside. It's only going to get colder. I can wait and see though...but then I increase the risk of the others getting infected if by some miracle they haven't been yet. And she would not be happy bei9ng seperated at all. :( This is so hard.

Wow..if this was a certain Vicki that I totally respect and trust..I would give it some serious thought.

Of course..like a lot of others on here..I have been reading about Johannes. I must say that with close to 70% of milking cow herds supposedly affected..something seems off to me on the whole scenario. I can't put my finger on it. I mean, if Johnnes is THAT prevalent..wouldn't everyone be more aware and beating feet to get every last thing on their place tested?

If Chrons (sp) Disease is getting more prevalent..people don't instantly die from that. And if I'm reading correctly..it's supposed to be the "human" form of Johnes. I guess I have more questions than answers.

I guess I would go back to the mineral imbalance. If they can test my hair and find out that I am totally messed up with my minerals and vitamins..surely they can test a goat.

I would also treat her for infection like the first vet.

All this is moot if she is suffering though.

Just me Minelson..still pondering

Oh, Minelson!

:awh:

I think you just need to figure out how to get her healthy. I know you've been trying, but now that you know what you *might* be dealing with it should help figure out a course of treatment. I personally wouldn't separate her from Frankie and Flossie. They have been together for 4 years (I think). They would have either gotten it by now or she doesn't have it either.

Mostly wrong, unfortunately. And, it can also spread through milk/colostrum and in utero, not JUST fecal-oral. Cleanliness is an issue but that doesn't mean that she had to be in 'filthy' conditions (especially not filthy enough to question survival) to contract it. Especially if she was exposed as a youngster. Usually the amount of infection causing bacteria is smaller for young animals (weak immune system) than it is for adults. Supposedly, spread is very low between adults probably because their immune system is strong enough to battle it. Then again, how many cows are kept for years to study if they turn positive 5 years after exposure? Most 5 year old dairy cows are nearing the end of their productive careers, and are shipped to slaughter anyways. Not a lot of research is done (or is feasible, or practical) to see how transmission occurs between adults. We KNOW this disease has a long incubation period, and that it's hard to test for. Information is small, but it's something to consider.

I work at DCPAH, and we do Johnes testing - ELISA and culture. Many semen sales places test their sires for Johnes. MANY, MANY places test for Johnes, either because they are a certified free farm OR because they are working on eradicating it from their herd. We get many samples per week (usually not herdwide, but herd random samples or samples of 'suspects'), and we get TONS of fecal cultures during certain times of the year from breeding/semen sales places.. There are eradication programs, all optional but suggested. The tests are perfectly reliable, it is the way the disease works that causes false negatives. If the animal isn't shedding, then it generally can't test positive - but it still IS infected. Also, the ELISAs just show exposure, not necessarily infection. That is why you never stop at one herdwide test to give you answers. I just heard the other day from a guest lecturer that a ELISA test can determine about 40% of infected cows from a herd, and a fecal will find about 50% of infected cows. Testing is a tool to be used in conjunction with biosecurity and proper management to stop spread of disease. In suspicious animals, a necrospy is usually suggested because the lesions caused by johnes is SO clear to pathologists, and can really be definitive especially when you have animals that need to be euthanized anyways. But, the fecal especially when positive (and even more so when backed up by a PCR) is pretty darn accurate. It's the negatives you have to 'worry' about, there - either they were recently exposed and aren't shedding yet, or they're simply on the upswing in health and therefore their immune system is keeping it in check. Those animals may suddenly turn for the worse the next calving as stress levels rise drastically. So yes, a postiive animal *may* test negative later. But a positive fecal sample I would call pretty indicitive, ESPECIALLY if backed up with PCR.

We regularly get johnes positive goats and cows where I work - I don't hear about ELISA results, but I work in Bacteriology and I hear about the cultures. We follow up positives with PCR confirmation, which looks for specifically MAP DNA, to ensure it's not a false positive. That's pretty darn conclusive. Simply, goats are not tested as often, which gives a false sense of security that it is 'not common' in goats. Little research has been done with johnes and goats, simply because the goat industry is not a 'cash cow' like dairy, beef, swine, or even the sheep industry. (same reason why most drugs are used off-label for goats).

Gretta had the PCR test

So did the goat in question ever have any contact with Cattle?

I seem to remember when CAE prevention first came about that people who didn't want to pasteurize goat milk or heat treat goat colostrum would use raw cow milk and colostrum and some reported having Johnes develop.

Also a few people who raised Holstein steers on their goat milk and intermingled the goats and cows got it.


I have a buddy who raises beef cattle and sheep but his mom got some holstein calves to raise and brought it in to both their beef cattle and their sheep. Ugh.

The state vet once told me that he reccomended that the cattle people do like the goat people do and raise the kids on pasteurize milk separately from the adults to lessen the likelyhood of it.

I've never had cows on my place but I always worry because I buy hay and every now and then I'll see chunk of manure in the hay where they put it on the field. I actually stopped getting feed mixed at this one place because they used used bags.

I agree with mygoat. Being in a major dairy cattle area I've had a talk with my vet this spring when deciding if we wanted to add cattle or not. His information was pretty much the same. I don't know where vicki got that copper info from.

Again, so sorry you are going thru this.

Gretta's first couple years are a mystery :(

I'm going to relate an article I read in Stockman Grass Farmer several years ago. I can't cite the issue or authors, don't remember.

A Johne's positive bull in poor condition was put on pasture/hay and minerals only. The theory was that the acidic gut conditions that grain feeding causes allow the bacterium that causes Johne's to flourish and that if the gut was rested from any unnatural feeding methods it could recover. The bull's condition improved over time and he tested negative for Johne's two years later. I don't remember any more of the story than this, don't remember why they waited two years to retest.

At the time the article was published we had a Johne's positive cow that I really hated to lose. She was having the projectile diarrhea and losing condition very quickly. We stopped feeding her grain. She stopped losing condition but unfortunately we didn't keep her but about 8 months after that for other reasons, so I don't know what would've happened over the long term. It was very significant to me that she stopped losing condition almost immediately though and held her weight through that 8 months that we kept her. Normally Johne's positive cows go downhill extremely quickly once they reach the projectile diarrhea stage.

I don't know if this can be of any help to your goat at this stage but maybe it could help your others not convert to a positive status in the future.

If anyone doesn't believe in this please don't flame, I'm just relating our experience and trying to help. I don't know if any research has been done on the subject.

I do know that dairy cow herds, with their heavy grain diets, do show a much higher incidence of Johne's Disease than pastured beef herds.

I'm really sorry about Gretta.

Michelle, I really wish this wasn't happening to you :( . I just want you to know that I do know how you feel...what you are feeling...and just how awful that feeling is. When my alpacas got sick, it literally made me sick to my stomach. I thought in some way I had failed them. After much research, alot of prayer (and alot of yelling at God) I found peace with it all. These animals were/are my pets and I will do everything in MY power to protect and care for them. Everytime I saw a fly land on one of the alpacas or goats I would freak out thinking that fly was going to once again infect my animals. There are just some things out of our control. I'm sure Gretta got this before she came to live with you. If she had not come to live with you, she probably would have showed signs way before now and would have been very sickly and miserable. You have taken such good care of her that she has stayed healthy for many years and I believe she can feel healthy again! She has been a wonderful friend to you and I know you will do your best for her. Trust your instincts, do your research and know you have many friends who care about you and Gretta :)

Could also be dairy cattle more intensive situations too.

Gretta never got a lot of grain. I know she has a reputation of being fat. But that is cuz I let her graze and browse all day all over 10 acres of smorgesborg. They get a treat of Boss and Alf pellets at night for coming in. An occasional cookie or cracker treat. Plenty of good grass hay. I am not over feeding. I may be over browsing but not over feeding.

Yes, this is one thing that was discussed by my guest lecturer in class the other day. It is MUCH harder to eliminate johnes from dairy herds than it is from beef cattle operations because dairy operations are usually high concentrated. You end up with highly contaminated environments, even if visibly 'clean'.

This may be why it's less common in goats, too - their poo is much different and they are often not kept in highly concentrated conditions like dairy cows are.

I wasn't suggesting at all that you over fed. I didn't know Gretta had the reputation of being fat.

I was just relating the information about the grain in case it could be helpful.

What does PCR stand for?

from what I read
 

If it is Johnes, there was no way you could have predicted it. I read that they "get it" when they are kids, but it does not show up until they are adults, and then it just "starts" and takes over. So if you have purchased a goat somewhere else, and unless they are testing their herd for it, you would not know you are bringing it in, also, even if they DID test for it, unless they ARE shedding, the Johnes would not show up. So someone could believe from their tests that they have a perfectly healthy herd, and sell infected babies to someone else, without ever knowing it.

PCR - Polymerase Chain Reaction. Essentially it amplifies any DNA present. That way they have enough DNA to work with.

Thanks Dona, so then since Gretta had the PCR test it is supposed to be more reliable, is that correct?

Yes..I didn't take it that way it just made me think about her feeding and comment on it. If I would have followed the original owners advice then she would have gotten way too much grain...and dog food!!!:eek:But I found HT and got great direction and made some great friends.
This is one of the lowest points of my life

I will have to come back to this...

My heart is breaking for you Min!

You're gonna be okay Minelson..really..you are.

We are just going to have to deal with it. Not now...I'm way past being able to deal at this point. It makes it harder when your hubby is in another country that is about a day and a half off and has no phone service. Gosh darn Congo. He is begging me to keep Gretta going until he gets home. The vet doesn't think that will be a problem and is available 24/7 if I need immediate assistance. He is being great about this and "gets it"

Minelson I would like to send Gretta something from me and my goat kids. If you would please email me your address to mseffieL@aol.com I'll get it in the mail tomorrow or first thing Saturday. It's something I have had for probably 10 years and I don't have a need for it and you do!!! I have family that lives between Pierre and Onida, not sure what section of South Dakota your in. I spent the summer of 1979 in South Dakota on my aunt and uncles 3500 acre ranch between Pierre and Oninda. I'll be looking for your email soon I hope. Please hang in there, we are here for you and Gretta and the kids... Before I send the package have you tryed Di-Methox 40% and the womer Prohibit? I just received an order yesterday and I would be glad to include those items in the package also if you haven't tried them please let me know and those will be coming your way also with Gratte's gift. You don't have the time nor the stength right now to be having to order items you don't have and I have them and I love to share.. I have seen remarkable turn around using those itmes. Please email me your address: Sandy

Keep her segregated in the off chance she wasn't shedding the virus. Test the others when you feel up to it. Have hubs bring you a BIG bottle of wine. Take a deep breath and a long hot bath. Don't do anything until you've had time to recover from the shock. Hugs mama! What a horrible shock!

Am sitting here on a bus waiting for the football team to get done and I log on to read thiis ??? I can't believe it?? Maybe the test was wrong ,,,hugss and prayers

I would start figuring out what they treat crohnes disease with and start with that. It is a similar disease. I know they use prednisone to reduce the inflammation. Lets all do some research.

My son in law has crohnes. After the initial diagnosis (which was scary and made him very sick) he has managed it by staying away from corn and seeds. It makes me think the previous post (Cliff?) was on to something about removing grain from the diet.

The long and short of it is, yes. A positive *could* be from contamination... Though the media used to grow MAP is VERY specific (IE, inhibits growth of pretty much everything else, while being adequate for growth of MAP). A PCR test essentially will tell you SPECIFICALLY if the DNA for the organism in the positive sample is from MAP. It is about as precise as it can get - it's either MAP DNA or it's not. If MAP DNA is present in the sample, then it MUST be from the innoculum, which is feces from the test subject.

Though usually the graph output from the machines used to incubate the johnes bottles shows false positives pretty obviously - the graph monitors pressure in each individual bottle. The pressure changes as 'something' growing in the bottle undergoes normal metabolism... usually producing/consuming gas, thus changing the pressure. Thankfully due to the media used for growth, most things are inhibited, leaving a very narrow range of possible bugs that could grow. From there, looking at the graphs individually as they go positive, true positives have a VERY distinct graph shape. All positives (at least at DCPAH, last I checked) are sent for PCR confirmation.

I work tomorrow, I'll try to chat about Johnes with the man who does the testing.

Corn is corn .. right? I say wrong. I don't believe animals were "made" with feeding them corn in mind. And, I believe that GMO and Bt corn has side effects. . on people as well as animals.

Not to mention that Greta was fed dog food when she was young? Hello..meat scraps in dog food can't be good for ruminants..can it?

Minelson...breathe...take a deep breathe...
I'm sorry that Gretta has gotten this diagnosis...my brother has Crohns and has lived with it for over 20 yrs. I know that steroids are instrumental in keeping it at bay. I know that many Crohns patients go into remission, I'm wondering if it is the same for goats with Johnes. I think that you have more options right now than you are able to think about. Don't give up on anybody yet...look into whatever may help Gretta and it doesn't mean the other are infected. Sending you hugs and strength! Gina

Was this a fecal or blood test ran on her? I dont know if Im being stubborn and not let it be but doing some research.

I don't know if she was fed dog food. I just remember the seller telling me I could feed her any grain or even dog food. That is when I knew she was coming home with me. And I had no clue...but I knew it was wrong and I could give her a better life. Enen thoug I had no fencing. And that is how the free ranging began

It was a fecal PCR test

Oh Michelle. Your poor girl:(

Don't give up yet. Take a deep breath and take the time you need to process the bad news. Then let's get back to figuring this out. I have faith that if there are options to keep her in better health, this group will find them~

I am just so crushed. I am not giving up but I don't see any way out of this. :Bawling:Right now I am just feeling so sorry for myself and my babies...This is my family!! And my Gretta...no way~ how on earth do I put her to sleep :Bawling::Bawling::Bawling::Bawling::Bawling::Bawl ing: it's just too much

Test all of them before you make any decisions.

It's hard. It really really stinks.

I had to put down my Snowbelle after her udder was ruined and infected by a spider bite. We couldn't top the infection. Hurt me dreadfully to walk away from her. Still hurts.

We do understand. Goats are family.

Huggs,
Alice

How could you not be crushed? I know exactly how you feel about your babies...they're our kids, aren't they? You got Gretta the same time I got my cherubs and we were newbie goat owners together, remember? Imagine what her life would have been like without you.

There's no way to make it better, but know I've been thinking of you and Gretta every day. We all have been. Sending you hugs from VA...:grouphug: