Johnes test
 

Not sure I'm spelling that right, but where can I send a fecal sample to for this test? My vet was $70 for doing it. I can't afford that on one goat, and I need it, I guess, for this buck we have.

Thanks,

Valorie :)

Diagnostic Lab Fees at the WSU College of Veterinary Medicine

Your vet was not off base with the cost of the culture.

However, it is much cheaper to draw blood and send THAT off instead. At WADDLs, the fecal culture is 100% accurate, and costs $56 for out-of-state submissions, that does not include accession fee and shipping. The blood test for sheep and goats is 98.2% accurate, and costs $6.30.

My vet charges $10 to draw blood if I bring the goat in, which is an option if you do not know how to do it yourself.

So the blood test may be a much cheaper option for you.

Recently heard from a guest lecturer in one of my classes that the ELISA was able to detect about 40% of positive animals within a herd, and the fecal able to identify 50% of infected animals.

The difference in accuracy of the test method and ability to detect a positive animal are different. Accuracy means that when present, johnes can be detected at that rate. This is determined by making known positives or known cultures for johnes disease and testing them repeatedly using the methods, to ensure that the test is valid and representative.

BUT - if the johnes positive animal is not shedding the bacteria at the time you collect the feces or has not produced many antibodies yet, then the test obviously won't be able to detect it. Affected animals do not always shed the bacteria, and it can take a long time for positive animals a long time to build enough antibodies to this (sometimes) slowly progressing disease, to cause a postitive ELISA result. Not that the tests aren't accurate - but it can't detect something that isn't there. This is why retesting is so important. No one testing batch is ever indicitive of disease status of a herd. If you suspect Johnes, it's always a good idea to utelize isolation, routine testing (at least every 6 mon, I'd personally probably repeat in 3 mon), and prevention of disease spread.

DCPAH (Diagnostic Center for Population and Animal Health) charges 7.25 for Johnes ELISA. 26.00 for a general fecal culture, 29.00 for a pooled fecal (think it's up to 5 animals in the pool), or accellerated culture for 33.00. (look up Mycobacterium paratuberculosis cultures under Bacteriology section) They need at least 2g of poo. Any positives are confirmed with PCR, to ensure a 'false positive' isn't due to contamination - usually you can tell by looking at the graph wether it's a false positive, but it's sent for PCR just to be sure.

I used Pan America it was $12 for Johnes, CAE and CL cost me about $7 in shipping but I have the insulated boxes and had to use ice packs.

http://vmdl.missouri.edu/VMDLSchedOfFees.pdf

Missouri Vet Lab will culture feces for $27. Link above.

Okay
 

Talked with the VMDL in Missouri and the cost will be $56.25 with the culture and the PCR for confirmation. They told me how to get the sample to them, so hopefully I can get that done, but it won't be till tomorrow. Unfortunately, went out for chores this a.m. and my buck is down. I'm not sure this test is even going to be relevant now, which is another reason I'm waiting until tomorrow. I have given him electrolytes and some Immune support tincture, and he seemed to rouse a bit and was able to get up and eat and drink. I heated up a baby bottle with electrolytes in it and man did he drink that down. He's dehydrated this morning, so I'm pushing fluids as much as possible, but I also wonder if this is even worth the effort. Not being mean, but if he's going to die, should I just put him down or keep trying to see what tomorrow brings. If he has a fatal disease, why put the time and effort in, you know? It just breaks my heart. This was the "real" start to our herd.

The "plus" to taking the sample and testing is...it's a VERY contagious disease. The peace of mind will help you tremendously in making your future decisions for your herd. I'd do the test.

the test
 

The thing is, with doing the test, I'd have to spend money that my family does not have at this time. Maybe a bit later, but my husband has been in and out of the hospital the last 2 months. Finally they think everything is fine and he is going to be staying home for a while. He just had a colonoscopy yesterday and they said it looked good, so we're on the road to recovery, and money is extremely tight right now. If we hadn't already had plenty of feed in the barn, the animals may have suffered, but we have it, so all is well there.

Now, I have been keeping track of Bonsai all day. As I said at first, he was down when we went out this morning, laying on his side and just kind of moaning. Its raining here, so he got a little wet, but not totally. Evidently he had just gone outside. Anyway, there he was. He couldn't get up on his own. We lifted him to his feet, and took him from his pen into a pen inside the center of the barn, out of drafts, and away from the rain, so he has been laying in a pile of nice dry hay.

Then we gave him some immune support tincture from Molly's Herbals, and a baby bottle full of warm Resorb. He stood up and drank the entire bottle and took the tincture with no fuss. He even stood there and started snoring while he was drinking the warm bottle of Resorb! LOL. Then he started eating oats, and it was like he couldn't get enough of them. He ate all that we gave him and then started on the hay that is all around him, and it made me wonder if he wasn't just having an extremely large worm overload? I don't know. Anyway, we left him there to rest, and he had laid back down.

We just came in from seeing him again with, this time a syringe of Ivermectin (which I'm going to give him again the next 2 days), as suggested on another thread. We also gave him another warm bottle of Resorb and some more oats. Again, eating like there's no tomorrow and standing up and he even pushed me out of the way, which he certainly could not have done this morning. Its like a 360 degree change from how we found him this morning.

So, I'm wondering if the worm overload isn't the entire problem? He got the warm Resorb, with the Ivermectin in it, and its just like a baby, getting a warm tummy, and then falling asleep while eating their bottle. That's what he was doing, but this time he did it totally standing up. I think he had just gotten anemic enough that he couldn't stand and that first dose of Ivermectin I gave him about 2 weeks ago just wasn't enough.

Does this sound plausible to everyone? Please say yes, cause the other reason I wouldn't get the test if he is gone, is that we would have to sell my does. He has never been with them, so I don't think they would have caught anything from him, but they would have to go cause we can't afford to buy a new buck. As I said, he was the "start" of my new herd. If this doesn't work, well, it just has to.

Honey, if he is responding that well, keep doing it. And if you are that hurt for money, don't get the test, since I know you have kept him separated from your does, he hasn't shed virus around them. And honestly, they are adults....they are a BIT more resistant.

Do you have, or can you get some from a horse friend, some Red Cell? That is the best thing for an anemic animal.

If he recovers from this, he is NOT symptomatic for Johne's, because if it was Johne's, and he had gone symptomatic, he would not recover.

You CAN dose him every day with Ivomectin for a week, if you wanted to, and it would not harm him. If he is responding to the wormer/electrolyte treatment, *keep doing it*. Treat it as if the Devil himself personally delivered the biggest wormload he could, in order to discourage you, and now you have to back that Devil down and tell him that he isn't going to take your buck from you.

Remember, as long as there is life, there is hope.

I agree if he is responding with the treatment your doing right now & been seperated from your does' keep doing what your doing. I would probably worm him every day for at least the 3 days. Maybe on the 4th day as a precaution get a tube of Quest horse paste & worm him with that. Quest is given 1cc per 100 pounds of goat. Hopefully this will cover ever worm he might have right now.
Below is the link to the different wormers & dosages if you want to bookmark it for later.

Worms/Wormers

I do hope your husband is doing well & things start turning around for you since I know this year has not been easy for you.

Thanks!
 

I really appreciate all the support folks. You are right, it has been a tough year, but you know, I have had 18 years now where things just have never gone quite right. I'm so discouraged and so ready to just give up everything. I love this farm and the animals, but we are just not making it very well. The only thing we have that is truly making money for us believe it or not is Siamese kittens, and we are doing well with those, but even that is a big time consumer and a BIGGER money critter than even the goats. Its just been tough, and I'm getting too old to deal with it anymore.

I'm fighting with everything I know of on this goat, because his blood lines are definitely worth it, and if he doesn't make it, its over.

Well, gotta get some other things done. Again, thanks for the support!

Valorie :(

I agree with backfourty and Calianna on this one! you are probably dealing with barber pole worms < devil himself, and they attache and suck blood from the intestine just like a leech.and where there one there possibly thousands. A goat with barber pole worms ia at the mercy of the goat ower to treat vigorously, and I mean VIGOROUSLY. These worms suck blood until the goat doesn't even have enough stength to even stand on its own and these worms kill more goats then anyother worm out there..I live in middle TN and I have to treat for barber pole worms year round.. I just ordered on Saturday my fall order of Prohibit and 40% Di-methox and I'm hitting my seven goats this weekend their fall worming and bolus before winter. I see it time and time again on the forums, goats with the same problem's and people that try to treat with herbel wormers and those types of wormers just don't work and every will work on BARBER POLES WORMS..

okay
 

Now, the goat is eating well, we have wormed him for today, given him the resorb and now, I'm wondering, if he is anemic, should I be getting some type of iron to him, more than what is in that mineral block. Please keep in mind, this is a sheep/goat mineral block, and don't get upset with me over that, we cannot get loose minerals in this area without ordering them, and again, there is no way I can do that right now. However, I do have a bottle (about a year old) of kelp tablets for humans. Would there be any value in giving the goat some of that to maybe help him produce more red blood cells? Actually, thinking about it, I think I have kelp drops.

Red Cell is great for added iron. It's a liquid sold in the equine section at TSC. If you have any friends out there that have horses they may have some to sell you or if you have a TSC or farm/feed store they should carry it. That will help with the anemia.

well
 

We don't have a TSC here and again, our Bomgaars carry mostly nothing in medicine, other than wormers and antibiotics. My friend that has horses, called just before I wrote this note. His son-in-law had an accident with a saw today and cut off most of one of his hands. He asked that help look after things while they are gone to the hospital with son-in-law. He was on the way to the hospital when he called. I can ask another time but not now. I'm just hoping someone knows about the kelp drops for tonight.

Okay, I think we are definitely on the right track with the Barberpole worms!!!!!! The reason I think so is because I have read some more on that since it has been mentioned, and my goat has bottle jaw! I mean a HUGE swelling right where his beard is, and like it said on the article I read, it has gone down tonight, now it says it will reappear tomorrow. It says vitamin B12 and Red Cell, but since I don't have the red cell, do you think the kelp will be okay?????

Prohibit (Levamisole) is the BEST thing I have ever seen on BARBER POLES! It will fix them, but it is a wormer you DON'T overdose.

Your kelp drops won't hurt him.

The kelp won't hurt him.

Oh, I wish you had mentioned the swelling earlier! Bottle jaw is an easy fix!

You just need to give him the Ivomectin and copper! Fixes them right up!

You can order copper oxide capsule in goat sizes online for a few dollars each, you need one capsule per every 50lbs, I believe.

And that also explains the worms. His minerals are a goat/sheep block? Anything that says "sheep" on it does NOT have enough copper for goats. Get a mineral for cattle or horses.

Also, with loose minerals, I would not get goat minerals...get cattle minerals. Anything with over 2,000ppm of copper will do well for you there. If Boomgars is the main feed store out there, they will have minerals for cattle and horses that are not in blocks.

Check in the cattle section to see if they have Replamin Gel, because THAT stuff is gold when it comes to treating mineral deficiency.

Oh my! I am so relieved! He IS fixable! And fairly easily fixed!

I'm so thrilled!
 

I saw the swelling, but I wasn't thinking of it being related. I thought maybe he had a secondary infection there, and actually didn't even want to think about that. But after someone said Barberpole worms, and I read about it, I nearly did flips here in my office! I called around and no one here has even heard of Red Cell, so I'm doubting I can get it. Caliann, I will go tomorrow to Bomgaars and see if I can get the Replamin gel, and I'll get a horse block. I'm just so thankful for everyone's help! Now I normally go to Fiasco Farm to get information on things like the kelp, but I couldn't find it anywhere. The bottle says 4 drops for an adult, and I figure he weighs a lot like an adult, only thinner right now. I gave him 5 drops in some Resorb. He loves those bottles! LOLOL We also gave him some goat feed and some alfalfa hay, and then put an old mattress pad over him to keep him warm for the night. Silly thing, he pulled the mattress pad off!

You know what is really cute? He's sleeping in the barn and all of the barn cats have cuddled up to him! If I can remember, I'll try to take a picture tomorrow if they are still there. I'm thinking tomorrow I'll have to put him back in his pen though, cause right now, he's not in a real secure place, and he did black my eye about a year or so ago, by throwing me into an I beam. I now have a bad foot, so I'm sure he could, even weakened, pitch me harder this time! LOL

Oh, I was also going to mention, on Fiasco Farm website, she has a whole area devoted to doing your own fecal smears in case you want to look that up and see what you can do. I'm thinking I might get my own set up since our vets here don't really know squat about goats. Then I might be able to detect these things a little easier.

Good night ya'll!

Valorie :)

We use a Kent's loose mineral for the Dexters and the goats. Never seen such an improvement in both. I believe you said you had 3 wagons of corn donated to you? If it were me...I'd sell enough corn to buy some good minerals and wormers. Corn is not a priority for the goats..I believe that loose minerals are.

Glad he is turning the corner.

well
 

As of this morning, he's still with us, but he is REALLY weak. He's not standing up this morning. I gave him more electrolytes, more minerals, more wormer, and more kelp.

I called Bomgaars and they don't carry Replamin gel or Red cell, and they don't have any Prohibit either, so the above is what I'm stuck with.

Sherry the "cracked corn" is corn chaff that is provided when they clean out the combine heads and they have to just dump it on the ground and throw it away or give to someone. No one around here wants it, but we use it for our chickens all the time. In the winter, our goats get a little of that, plus hay, and goat feed, but its not the main source of their food. I heard one time that it would produce energy in goats and that can help keep their metabolism up so they stay warmer in the winter, so we do feed a bit of it to them, but we need the corn for other animals.

I am going to have to order the stuff that we need on line I guess. We have the lousiest farm supply stores around here. I think if I had to get things in person I would probably have to go to Sioux City or Des Moines, 2 hours in either direction and can't do that right now.

We got the bill on my husband's surgery yesterday. Simply amazing, it was $99,724.68. Our share of it, fortunately, and this is horrible, just over $3000. We had to call to make payment arrangements. We'll be working on that bill for the next 3 years. Definitely not great news but at least not the $99,0000.

Yay!!!!!!
 

I have found a feed store (A KENT feed store) in the area that is willing to buy loose goat minerals for me. They don't carry them, but they can buy them from their supplier. Believe it or not, its a lumber yard. I can't get the minerals until next week, but they will call me when they are in. They are $21 for 50 pounds, which I have 11 goats so that 50 pounds should last a little while, and they go to their supplier weekly, so I can have a bag in a few days time.

My husband is picking up a couple of horse mineral blocks today. That's the best I can do around here, or the goat/sheep blocks, and I can use the horse blocks anyway, so that's fine if it won't work for the goats, I can still use it for the horses.

I'm thinking that maybe for now I'll just up the kelp a little bit? What would you do?

Hey Val, just wanted to explain that the loose Kent minerals that we use are not specifically for goats..I believe they are cattle minerals.

OT-Your hospital may be able to do something more if you qualify as low income, too. Call and ask if there is any financial aid/assistance for low-income families. Our hospitals have funds to help and it reduces your portion even more. You can also apply to the state for emergency medical help. They will pay just one big bill for you, if you qualify. Pardon my interruption, but I hope something there helps.

Make sure the minerals are high in copper. I use a cattle minerals & here is a link and the minerals I use is the third from the bottom> Ultimate Cattle Minerals with the highest copper at 2600 ppm / labled in the green bag. I purchase from my local Co-op :I have used this for years and my goats love it. I put it out fresh weekly and 7 goats will eat about 10 to 12 oz per week/ 8 oz is one cup and they eat more then that..
http://www.ourcoop.com/include/image...ral%201108.pdf

Also, red cell is the only thing I know of that can help when you have barber pole worms. We had in it BAD in our sheep and lost 2 lambs before I realized what was going on. Like, fine one day and dead the next. But red cell saved the last 2. You can get it online, you know. Amazon.com: Red Cell Liquid Supplement Gallon: Pet Supplies With a Prime membership you can get it 2 day for free, or overnight for another $3.99... You might still be able to get an amazon student or amazon mom account for free (or reduced). Google the terms and you'll find info.

Hi. Sorry I just now caught this thread. You may have already found Red Cell. But in the event you haven't. Geritol and vit B tablets from the grocery store will work in a pinch. Just grind them up and drench. Vitamins for humans aren't balanced for the needs of a goat, but since they are water soluble, it would be hard to overdose(short term).

Others on the forum have given dosages for these. I've dosed them double the recommended for human weight with no ill affects, but I think I'm being way too conservative.

I use spring mineral for cows because other specialized minerals are not available. It does have copper and TSC sells it here.

A note on anemia, it takes a while for them to recover. You CAN overdose iron. Its best to get a good mineral balance and keep it up. And a goat can't absorb minerals well with a damaged gut. Vitamins - the Bs - are what will heal the intestinal tissue. Then the minerals will start catching up. Watching for the appearance of anemia is great diagnostic tool, but anemia, as a condition, is not necessarily your worst concern, its the underlying cause.

My meat herd had a bad load of Barber Pole late summer. The most compromised goat has taken a month and a half to shake the anemia and she's still not where I'd like her to be. And she didn't have bootle jaw. It could take quite a while.

Oh, and I forgot to mention. If your feed store doesn't carry probios, regular yogurt will help in a pinch as well.

contagious
 

so are you at risk in any way with this

Okay
 

Well, I still can't (Sherry) get loose cattle minerals. All they sell up here are those great big great tubs and they are solid, but again, by next week I'll have true goat minerals, which I'm just amazed I could finally find them!

I think I have some vitamin B, but not sure, gonna have to dig through my vitamin supply for that, and I'm not sure its a complex of any sort. I needed it once for an arm injury and they told me that would help me heal, which it did not do, but I tried anyway. But if the goat can use it, hey, great! I also have a bottle of chelated trace minerals, can't remember where I got those, but again, that was suggested for my arm, so I'll see about that and see what the iron is in it and see what we can do with it.

No (kittyjo) he hasn't been in with my does yet, so he's not had a chance to infect them.

I do have yogurt. I hope he likes blueberry! LOL

I will do my best to get some red cell right away as well.

On the hospital bill, get this, we are over the line for help by about $50 a month, so no help coming. Oh well.

Thanks everyone! I'll keep you all posted. We are in a storm right now, wind and cold, cold, rain, so I'm holding off going out there a little bit. We'll see what can happen.

Just wanted to pipe in that Jeffers livestock carries red cell and replamin plus, and has free shipping over 49.00 orders unless there's oversized/FOB shipping. They have minerals but it's pricy to ship them. Guaranteed even if you COULD find most supplies locally, Jeffers would be cheaper. I LOVE Jeffers. :)

I Love Jeffers too but didn't know they were carrying the Replamin Plus now. They weren't when we all started using it here! Did you see their sale for the 12 days of Christmas Dona?

Sorry, Dunroven I didn't want to hijack your thread.
I would order the Red Cell if you can't find it locally. So glad you finally found a store that will order your loose mineral. Be sure & check out Kent's minerals online before you have them order so you can specify which one you want. I would also take the blocks out of the goat areas when you put the loose minerals in for them.

I have fabulous news!!!!!!!!!!
 

Bomgaars told me when I called this morning that they did not have Red Cell. Well, our farm helper went to get my rabbit feed, etc., and he said something about the Red Cell, and they were all in a dither over whether he should buy what they had because it was for horses......not goats!!!! They had one, 1 gallon bottle and my farm helper said, well, I'm going to take it just in case. They assured him it was not for goats, but bless his heart he got it anyway!!! $19.99. I AM SO THRILLED!!!!! Fixing supper but right after supper, that goat will get his first dose!!!!!!! Please remind me how much I need to give him, he's right about 100 pounds at this point. He has lost an amazing amount of weight.

Thanks!

Dunroven-

Yes, Red Cell IS for horses, they don't have a goat version. Like so many things, its used off label because there just isn't much made specifically for goats.

I'm not sure of the dosage.

I know
 

And now I'm going to be able to help others around here that have the goats as well with this medicine! I am just absolutely thrilled about it and i'm going to request that they keep at least the 1 gallon on the shelf! I just pray my buck is going to survive this whole thing.

It is really great to have the benefit of everyone's knowledge across the country. If I had to rely on my vets around here, my goats would all be dead. I'm very appreciative of this information. I love my goaties!

I pour one capfull (from the gallon jug, on to their feed and mix the feed around.

You don't need a lot with Red Cell.