Help with a thin goat

trnubian · #21 10/09/12, 01:59 PM

LOL load him up on the probias. really can't over do that too much. I give big girls 10 and the little uns 5.
Sounds like he is feeling ok if he is chewing his cud and yes the garden leftovers are good. Just alot of water bases so he isnmt getting all that much nutrient wise. treats are good but for right now I would be concentrating on protein and energy. Protein in the alfalfa and energy in the feed. That feed you have sounds like it would be good.

nod4eight · #22 10/09/12, 02:32 PM

We are in a selenium deficient area, so I do have a lot of BoSe on hand. We've always done BoSe injections IM with success at 1cc per 40#. Sound right?

The thing with copper is that we have a few sheep in with the goats and have copper free salt. Is a copper bolus the best remedy to get all our goats the needed amount of copper?

GoldenWood Farm · #23 10/09/12, 02:44 PM

A lot of people here have switched to using Replamin Plus gel, I still do copper bolus as I don't have time and I have a large herd to be doing the gel. Copper bolus I give twice a year and that along with good minerals helps keep their copper levels up enough. But Replamin Gel plus might work better in your situation being as you also have sheep in with your goats. It also probably would work faster which is what you are needing right now for this little guy. I will let someone else tell you about the Replamin Plus gel (Caliann is the one who discovered it and it has worked really well for everyone it seems to has tried it).

I give BOSE twice a year here and I give it 1cc per 20lbs Sub-Q. But if 1cc per 40lbs work in your area then stick with that. I could do IM but I just have always done Sub-Q. Has he had a BOSE shot yet?

Justine

nod4eight · #24 10/09/12, 02:53 PM

He did get BoSe when he first came. It's pretty much a first day protocol due to the very low selenium levels here. (I am in southwest Idaho - I see you are in Oregon GoldenWood, depending on where you are we may have very similar soils). Is there a reason to do subq? I always have a hard time with it, especially on thin, bony animals such as him. ** EDIT - I HATE giving shots, but at least I don't refuse to. The wife simply cannot do it and it needs to be done. Yay me!

I will check into the Replamin Plus. The bolus seems like it would take much longer to absorb in the gut. Can anyone chime in about the gel?

** Update - he is up and walking around like normal now. When he heard me come outside he came walking over to me as he always does with his tail held high and wagging. Obviously he is not "all better" but it gave me a big dose of optimism compared to his condition this morning!

GoldenWood Farm · #25 10/09/12, 02:56 PM

The bolus does absorb in the gut slower but it stay in their gut for a few months and get absorbed slowly so it lasts longer. The Replamin Plus gel gets absorbed faster and metabolized faster I believe plus it has a lot of other good vitamins in it. I believe what everyone does is they do a course of three days and then they go to weekly doses of the gel at 5cc's per dose? Don't hold me to that but I believe that is what I read they where doing.

On the Sub-Q versus IM I don't think there is much difference, I just have always done it Sub-Q. Though I agree with bony animals it sure makes it harder!

Oh and I live in northern Oregon about 30 miles out from Portland.

Justine

CaliannG · #26 10/09/12, 03:25 PM

~sighs~ Don't you hate it when you write nearly an entire post, and then your browser hiccoughs and you lose all of it?

Writing AGAIN.....

Replamin Gel Plus is basically a multi Vitamin/Mineral, in which all of the trace vitamins and minerals are presented in their most bio-available form, which aids greatly in absorption.

The Pros:

1. It is a complete Vitamin/Mineral. And balanced. Unlike free-choice loose minerals done as cheaply as possible by the feed mills, you don't have to figure out if the sulfate in the magnesium sulfate is great enough to inhibit the uptake of the zinc, or if there is not enough copper in an easily absorbing form for your goats. The gel has little in the way of sulfates (which can inhibit uptake of other minerals), and everything in it is in the MOST bioavailable form that you can get.

2. You don't have to worry about if your goats are even eating their minerals. With keeping out loose minerals, some goats eat lots of them, some goats won't touch them even if they need them desperately. This stuff is dosed, you KNOW they are getting what they need.

3. There is no waste. With keeping out minerals, you lose some to goat playing it, some to them fouling it, some to rain and humidity, etc. You dose this, so no waste whatsoever.

4. It's cheaper than any GOOD loose mineral out there.

Now, the Cons:

1. You DO have to dose it. It is given orally. The first couple of times you'll have some goats that think that you are poisoning them, and some goats that are trying to bite your fingers off because you have a little smeared on your hands. Reactions to the taste of it vary from goat to goat. After about the 2nd or 3rd dose, you'll have some that suck it straight from the tube and will try to mob you for it, and some that are ambivilent. Only a few will still think you are poisoning them.

But, at any rate, if you have a LOT of animals that you do not handle regularly, it will be too much labor involved to use it. However, if you have a few animals that you are handling on a day-to-day basis, adding in the gel won't be a problem.

Ummmm, that is about it for the cons. If you have a bunch of meat goats out in the pasture, it is likely not a management practice for you. But is you have 10 goats that you are petting and working with every day, it is a good bet. If you have a mixed herd of sheep and goats, it is DEFINITELY a good bet, because you can't leave out loose minerals that are suitable for goats where sheep can get at them. The copper in goat minerals will kill sheep.

Now, dosage on it:

For heavily deficient animals, you should give 5cc orally, once per day, 3 days in a row. Then wait 4 days, and give another 5cc dose. After that, you can give 5cc doses weekly, for maintenance, and that will cover all of your mineral needs.

If the animals are NOT deficient, you can go straight to a 5cc dose given once per week.

Replamin Plus Gel comes in two forms, both tubes. The small tube is 80cc, and has a dial-type dosage plunger. It costs about $16 therabouts, depending upon where you get it. The 300cc tube requires a special gun (caulk gun won't work, it is too small). The gun is approximately $19, but it is a one-time expence. The 300cc tube costs about $22, again, depending upon where you buy it.

In any goat with even the slightest deficiency, you will see very obvious results within 3 weeks. They will shed old coat, and grow in a new one that is fine and silky. They will start putting on weight. Producing does will start producing better, and there is even one case on here where a doe was giving bad tasting milk, and after going on the gel, her milk sweetened up and kept well.

Some people have had some problems dosing their goats....all mine treat the stuff like candy now. You can mix it with feed or treats for the reluctant goat.

Oh, on injections, except for hormones (Lutelyse, PG600, etc.) ALL injections are given SQ. Hormones are the only ones given I.M.

nod4eight · #27 10/09/12, 04:15 PM

Calliann - your first sentence made me laugh! I've done that today in fact!

Thanks so much for the information. I can add another con to your list - being readily available, at least in my location. I have called every feed store type place in a 30 mile radius and they have never heard of it and - get this - they have all stopped selling copper calf bolus as well!

I have started looking at alternative copper supplements. I may go get some sesame seeds - they are the highest in copper I have found that I think I can coax the goats into eating. (Liver and oysters are probably a no go lol.) I will order some Replamin Gel today. Good news is that he is up and about - eating fallen leaves which hopefully contain some of these mid-level soil trace minerals.

nod4eight · #28 10/09/12, 04:57 PM

Hey Guys,

My name is Kayann and I am on Goat World but not lucky enough to be here as of yet... LOL
I was talking to one of my farm supply guys and he had mentioned that when cows have wire they fail to thrive like this little goat is. Since we don't know where he came from exactly would it be possible that he could have wire?? Would it be harmful to him to put a magnet in his belly? I know that goats are PICKY eaters but if he wasn't being cared for properly would it be a possibility???

nod4eight · #29 10/09/12, 04:58 PM

I am Nod's wife by the way... Sorry

CaliannG · #30 10/09/12, 06:38 PM

Hi Kayann!

Goats very seldom eat wire, even when surrounded by it and starving. Their mouths, unlike cattle, are small, as are their teeth. It is very unlikely, especially for a young goat, to mistakenly consume a bit of wire. This is in contrast to cattle, whose large mouths could easily swallow a bit of baling twine along with a mouthful of pigweed in poor conditions.

There are SEVERAL "problems" that can cause a failure to thrive in goat kids. Most common of them are mineral deficiencies. Copper, selenium, and cobalt deficiencies all can cause your boy's symptoms. Cobalt, especially, is needed for a goat to utilize B vitamins, most notably thiamine. That is likely why the B-Complex perks him up so much.

Along with minerals, there are different parasites that can cause a failure to thrive. One is coccidia, which in young kids will scar the intestinal tract and make them unable to absorb nutrients. Heavy worm loads will make them anemic and steal their food from them.

In diseases, upper respiratory infections will sap their strength and ruin their appetite.

But, other than coccidia (which ALL goats have, it is just that adult goats have developed an immunity to them), most of the rest boil down to vitamins and minerals. If a goat has a proper diet, and is not mineral deficient, they will not GET infections, or heavy worm loads, or a host of other problems. So the main thing we generally address first here (other than in emergency, throw-the-book-at-them, goat-is-near-death situations) is mineral deficiency. Most problems can be prevented with proper maintenance and mineral care.

So the advice we have been giving you is to first address the parasite load (intestinal worms and coccidia) and URI that are draining him, then address his mineral needs to boost his immune system.

~smiles warmly~ SOME things that effect cattle also affect goats, such as coccidia and parasites....but wire isn't one of those things.

Welcome to the board!

Manchamom · #31 10/09/12, 07:10 PM

Here's a pic that shows how to check for anemia. This one has the colors on the chart about right. Excellent FAMACHA score | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Clovers_Clan · #32 10/09/12, 07:55 PM

Personally, I would not feed grain. Whatever the diagnosis, his condition indicates that his digestive tract is screwed up - worms/coccidia. Not to mention dewormers, antibiotics...

I rehabbed two rescue babies recently, so thin you could SEE the vertebrae in their NECKS! They have done very well on alfalfa pellets/beet pulp (soaked). Gradually I gave them a small amounts of whole oats and Black Oil Sunflower Seed(BOSS is high in copper), that is the only grain they've had and they've recovered completely. Starting out, don't underestimate the power of good browse(not graze, real browse). A variety of fresh green stuff contains the vitamins and minerals they are craving and increases their appetite tremendously. Here is the thread about their journey to recovery:

Before and After Pictures

Rehab after Coccidia

I wish I had a picture of them now, I'm having to cut back on their feed because they are now getting fat!

Good luck on your journey. Learn everything you can in the process. He still may not make it but you will be better prepared for future emergencies. And you will gain priceless knowledge to keep your herd healthy to begin with.

nod4eight · #33 10/10/12, 02:16 PM

Update -

Stilts and his companion goat stayed in a different shed last night. Yesterday afternoon he was all over the farm browsing, not "well" but acting lifelike. This morning I checked on them and he was cold and stiff. I had calves to bottle feed so I left him to come back and bury him later. (Don't cry yet.)

Angel (his companion) kept going back into the shed, as if she were trying to get him to follow. I went in there and he made a very faint noise. I took him out and covered hi with my jacket. The outlook is not good though.

Temp too low to register on my digital thermometer.
Dilated pupils, unresponsive to movement.
Occasionally he bleats out.
Cannot support himself - even his head while laying down.
Seems to be in a lot of pain/uncomfortable.
He did urinate on me.

I have done this:
As much lactated ringers sub-q as I can find loos skin to put it (only about 80 cc.)
2 cc Thiamine
10 Probios (still on his tongue, he hasn't swallowed.)
I tried to orally give electrolytes but he won't swallow.
Saline solution in his eyes (they were dry and it was making my eyes itch, I know - I'm a softy.)

I also gave 1 cc dexamethasone. I know this can have adverse effects on immune, especially if it is viral. But it did seem to calm/relax/take away his pain some.

Should I tube electrolytes? Is there anything else to do? Is he just waiting to die? Would a vet be able to do anything?

CaliannG · #34 10/10/12, 02:19 PM

Warmth. Get him WARM. Put him on a heating pad, wrap him in an electric blanket, put him in a pastic bag with nothing but his head sticking out and put him in a tub of hopt water.

WARMTH...you have to get him WARM!

CaliannG · #35 10/10/12, 02:20 PM

Don't put anything in is stomach until yuo get his temperature up! Get him warm, THEN tube electrolytes!

CaliannG · #36 10/10/12, 02:22 PM

And when you get his temp up, make sure the electrolytes are warm also. Heat them to just a bit warmer than body temperature before drenching him.

nod4eight · #37 10/10/12, 02:32 PM

I forgot to mention that. I have been swapping out blankets from him to the dryer to try to warm him up. Looking now for the heating pad! Thanks!

Minelson · #38 10/10/12, 03:05 PM

Oh I sure hope he makes it!

sending prayers for Stilts

nod4eight · #39 10/10/12, 04:25 PM

As he is warming up he is becoming much more active. Sat up at first and actually stood for a while. His belly is "working" to a degree - he is burping and tooting a little. Temp is still low - he is in a trash bag bath currently.

Raising this temp is taking longer than expected - ideas on what to do tonight? We've been getting in the upper 20s the past few nights.

finnsheep · #40 10/10/12, 04:39 PM

Keep him in the house. Especially if he isn't running everywhere, it's probably the best place for him. You can keep an eye on him and take his temp, etc.

I haven't had this problem with adults, but hypoglycemia can kill faster than hypothermia in lambs. If you try warming "frozen" lambs before giving them glucose, more often than not they will de in a hypoglycemic fit before they are even warm. IP injections of glucose are what's used...I've given oral glucose since I can't (yet) give an IP injection with confidence. (Shame on me, I know). It's probably not applicable to his case anyway.

I hope very much that he pulls through for you!