Working on SHTF plan..need advice

CaliannG · #21 09/30/12, 06:31 PM

Otter, I buy seeding oats from my co-op. It is the stuff they sell to farmers and ranchers for their pastures and feilds. It costs a bit more, I pay $18 for a 50lb bag of seed oats, where crimped oats would cost me $9 for the same amount, but for my experiments, it is worth it.

I am prepping too. Living in South East Texas, and with Global Warming picking up speed, water has become an issue. That is why I am experimenting with the fodder system, to sprout grain to increase digestibility, as well as increase AMOUNT 5-fold, as well as experimenting with floating hydroponics, so that I can grow replacements for that grain.

You can buy seed stock of other cereal grains as well. Locally, hard red winter wheat is going for $23 per 50lb, Cereal Rye is $26 per 50lbs, etc.

The seed type will cost you more per bag, but if it is only one bag to get you started on growing your own, what does it matter?

Also, check online with the various heirloom places that are trying to keep heirloom grains alive. Heirloom grains that were originally adapted to your climate would be far better than any hybrids.

The heirloom folks seldom sell more than a pound or so, as they expect you to grow it and make more seed, but it is a good start.

I would suggest going with the hybrid seed grains available commercially first (as they are cheap), to get your hand in, and once you have the hang of growing cereal grains in your area, switch to an heirloom variety that would be good for you.

CaliannG · #22 09/30/12, 06:41 PM

Oh, and Sherry, stock up on *minerals*. You can replicate feed. A single bag of oats, well planted and cared for, will give you many bushels of oats. What you are going to have a hard time meeting on your critters is their *mineral* needs. Your land isn't going to become less deficient just because civilization as we know it comes to an end. Get your soil tests and stock up on the stuff that you can't grow/make for yourself.

One handful of cereal grain can replace your seed stock in 4 months...but what can replace Cargill Right Now Onyx or Replamin Gel?

I am stocking up on Replamin. It takes up less storage space.

Clovers_Clan · #23 09/30/12, 06:55 PM

In the south, old-timers "hang out" greens(mustard, turnip, collards, etc.) for chickens. Just tie a bundle and suspend it in the pen, that way it doesn't get trampled and wasted. They love it and you can really cut back feed. They also like dock and cereal greens the same way.

I make it through the winter using little hay by keeping a forage garden for the goats. In addition to seeding the pasture in buck plot, I cover crop the garden in it. Even when the pasture starts getting sparse late winter, I can pluck of greens from the garden to give the goats. They do require more baking soda on the greens to prevent bloat but they've never gotten sick.

Never forget our forefathers survived without feed stores just fine. They just had to plan ahead, adjust expectations and pare down.

Sherry in Iowa · #24 09/30/12, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

Oh, and Sherry, stock up on *minerals*. You can replicate feed. A single bag of oats, well planted and cared for, will give you many bushels of oats. What you are going to have a hard time meeting on your critters is their *mineral* needs. Your land isn't going to become less deficient just because civilization as we know it comes to an end. Get your soil tests and stock up on the stuff that you can't grow/make for yourself.

One handful of cereal grain can replace your seed stock in 4 months...but what can replace Cargill Right Now Onyx or Replamin Gel?

I am stocking up on Replamin. It takes up less storage space.

We are going to order/buy bags of mineral..enough for a regular year. I like the idea of getting some seed..oats/grains..and throwing them in the ground next year. I just want some whole grain ideas that the goats would do okay on and that the chickens would pick through. LOL..I think some people thought we were thinking of feeding bagged/medicated chicken feed to the goats..NOPE..not gonna happen.

I REALLY appreciate all the advice/comments on this thread.

Whisperwindkat · #25 09/30/12, 07:41 PM

Chickens are easy if they are allowed to free range. We never buy feed for our chickens. They free range, get kitchen/garden waste, and clean up any food the goats, rabbits or horses spill. For the goats we feed oats, alfalfa pellets and BOSS. If needed we can and have grown oats and BOSS. We would exchange the alfalfa which doesn't grow well here for us for peas and peanut hay. Both are easy to grow and one grows in the summer while the other will grow most of the winter. Both are relatively easy to harvest, but our idea is that the goats would be allowed grazing on them. We also have plenty of browse and of course, kudzu which is high in protein. My big problem would be minerals. We are especially deficient in copper and selenium in our soils. So I stay well stocked on minerals and supplements. We also save any scrap copper we have around from plumbing projects. We figure burying it into the soil will help to release the copper in areas that we are growing. Don't know if it would work, but I figure it is better than nothing. Blessings, Kat

CaliannG · #26 09/30/12, 07:47 PM

Kat, instead of burying whole peices, you might consider grinding it, or selling it and buying powdered copper oxide. (You can get it at welding supply places in bulk) Spread THAT on your soil and disk.

Studies in Australia have shown that spreading just a pound an acre of copper oxide powder and disking it in kept the soil high enough in copper that goats were still not showing signs of deficiency 35 years later!

That is what I hope to do, when I get to pasture improvement. It is important to disk it in so that it doesn't suffer from run-off depletion or leaching.

Still not sure what to do about selenium, as we have plenty of it, it is just inhibited by our high iron content.

Awnry Abe · #27 09/30/12, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

By the way, I highly recommend that you read "One Second After." It's a post nuclear pulse novel that really opened my eyes. Read and take notes.

If the SHTF happens that way, you won't be getting any shipments to your feed store of anything.

One Second After: William R. Forstchen,Newt Gingrich: 9780765317582: Amazon.com: Books

I never made it to the end of the book. I got bored with the story after I got used to the "Boy, this sure is gonna suck." feeling.

Regarding oats and goats and chickens...I have a several hundred square foot area of excavated backyard that has poorish soil. Ahead of our last rain, I took about 5 gallons of oats from the goats and broadcast them to see if I could get something to grow there. Naturally, the chickens thought this was a fantastic idea. It pointed out that I must have been starving the poor things, because the egg production went through the roof a couple of days later.

Whisperwindkat · #28 10/01/12, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

Kat, instead of burying whole peices, you might consider grinding it, or selling it and buying powdered copper oxide. (You can get it at welding supply places in bulk) Spread THAT on your soil and disk.

Studies in Australia have shown that spreading just a pound an acre of copper oxide powder and disking it in kept the soil high enough in copper that goats were still not showing signs of deficiency 35 years later!

That is what I hope to do, when I get to pasture improvement. It is important to disk it in so that it doesn't suffer from run-off depletion or leaching.

Still not sure what to do about selenium, as we have plenty of it, it is just inhibited by our high iron content.

Thank You!! I have a friend who welds for a living and will ask him to check into that for me.

Alice In TX/MO · #29 10/01/12, 06:34 AM

Call the local companies that spread fertilizer for ranchers. They can add copper to the mix.

Otter · #30 10/01/12, 04:03 PM

Caliann, locally, I guess not a lot of farmers grow it, because I just can't find it. I'm going to have to order online. What my local co-op DOES have are several kinds of cow-pea and turnip meant for livestock feed, and I'm planning on putting in a bed each of those, too.
I'm working on building about 10 4x8 beds, each with a different feed crop (alfalfa, corn, turnips, cow-peas, oats, barley, hard wheat, soft wheat, Kunde beans, millet) It's a lot of garden space, but happily I have a lot of garden space, so I may as well use it to experiment with.

Assuming, of course, that drought doesn't totally kill my garden like it did this year.

I've lucked into a good bit of horse manure to fill raised beds with (horse manure holds lots of moisture) so wish me luck!

One fine day, when I can work out a set-up that will stay in a good temp range and not heat kill, I'd like to experiment with raising earth-worms in quantities big enough to help with the chicken's protein needs. Something else to look into.

CaliannG · #31 10/01/12, 07:52 PM

I think we have all realized the importance of growing cereal grains. That is a big reason why I will be experimenting with floating hydroponics. It's the only hydroponics set up I have found that is feasible for growing cereal grains!

I don't think the floating hydroponics would work in an aquaponics set up (roots would be too tasty to herbivorous fish), but with minimal electricity, I think I *can* pump water from a fish pond to ta floating hydropinics pond, and back again, using cereal grains as a water cleaner for the fish (they suck nitrates), and the fish as fertilizers for the grains.

We shall see. I don't have that one set up yet.

JohnP · #32 10/01/12, 08:43 PM

So you haven't got the goats yet. I'm very interested in goats for the shtf factor also so let's talk about breeds!
I've been looking into it a bit and I want goats for meat and milk for the hard times ahead.

For meat, Kiko seems to be the best due to being better foragers with less health problems than Boers.

For milk, I'm thinking Alpines as they are hardy also.

One consideration I've had is quietness (since getting a couple of loud nubian bucks).

I'm a goat newbie and haven't finished researching it, let alone asking here. So is there any dairy breed that would be considered lower maintenance than the rest? More hardy and disease/worm free?

CaliannG · #33 10/01/12, 09:24 PM

John, good management makes for hardiness. That is an honest fact. I have seen Spanish goats that were inefficient, unthrifty, and succumbed to every ailment that came down the pike, and I have seen show Saanens that shrugged off poor conditions as if they were nothing.

You've heard the phrase "Get 'em young and train 'em up right"? Well, that is BIG in goats. If they have really good management for the first two years of their life, then they will remain hardy and thrifty, often even in poor times.

A young goat that gets a bad case of coccidia that remains untreated will have a scarred gastrointestinal tract...and that will affect her for the rest of her life. She will not be able to convert feed as well as a goat who did not have that difficulty when young, and because of that, her immune system will not be as strong.

A doeling that was breed too young, or was underweight when bred the first time, and did not have supportive management to overcome that (i.e. having tons of protein poured down her throat during the pregnancy), will have skeletal problems later on, will be more prone to joint conditions, and will have a harder time delivering healthy kids...because she didn't get the chance to build up the protein reserves in her bones that she needs.

Any goat that is allowed to have a continued heavy worm load is going to have problems. Severely UNDERstocking pastures can help a lot in making sure heavy loads do not develop. Chemical wormers are necessary when you don't have the space to really UNDERstock your pastures. (Understocking is having 1 or 2 goats per acre of good pasture, rather than 4 or 5 goats per acre)

Other than that, it is often a case of individual goats. I have two Mini-Nubians. They were from the same small breeder. I got them when they were 4 months old. They have had the EXACT same management all of their lives.

Yet one produces a gallon a day on what seems like sunshine and air, hardly needs her hooves trimmed, stays FAT, and only once has shown a hint of mineral deficiency. The other, has a slender, svelte figure, produces about 3/4 of a gallon per day, has hooves I have to keep VERY on top of, and it seems like if she goes one day without her minerals she develops a fish tail.

Same breed, same management all of their lives, yet very different when it comes to their needs and what it takes to keep them healthy.

Now, on quietness. The very loudest goat I have ever owned was a Nigerian Dwarf. BOY, was she LOUD! Every time she saw me, she set up to caterwaling!

The second loudest goat I have every owned was an Alpine.

I have had mouthy Nubians, and yes, they can get loud. The ones that are currently gracing my herd right now, however, never utter a peep. One of my Mini-Nubians is kind of mouthy; the other is the silent type.

Now, I have noticed that the different breeds in my herd have different calls. My young Alpines have a "chuckle" kind of sound. And the adults have a cross between a moo and a baa, that sounds like a low-pitch "Maaaa!" The young Nubian and Nubian crosses have a definite "baaaaa!" while the adults have a louder, but still high pitched "BAAAA!" The Nigerians that I used to have had REALLY high pitched voices, that almost sounded like they were screaming.

Mainly, what you want to look at is individual goats. Some goats are loud and needy, others are quiet. Dominance sometimes plays a role in that too. I have noticed that my more dominant goats are quieter than those lower on the totem pole. Some goats are thriftier than others. One way to judge if a goat is going to be hardy is to compare her condition to her herdmates. Is she fatter or thinner than the other doelings? Or the other milking does if she is a milking doe? (You have to have a little care in this, because if the goats are fed communally, than the lower status goats will likely be thinner than the higher status goats, which may change once the goat is in a different situation.

~sighs~ I am sorry to tell you that there isn't a magic breed for hardiness and quietness. It really does depend upon the individual goat.