Since y'all are so helpful ...

PrettyPaisley · #61 08/27/12, 10:25 PM

A lot has happened today, some great, some not so good.

First the great. I found two bull calves; one born this morning, one born Thursday. Not $25 but I got them both for $110. I took the older one to her first (they came from two different farms) and she was not to excited about him. He STUNK so I first gave him a bath with the hose and soap but that really didn't help too much. He's too cute-sucking on any piece of flesh he could find so I promptly named him Brisket and told the family not to get to fond of him.

Here's the not so good part. While at Lowe's getting a pin for my trailer I read Emily's post, and got some soft rope. Earlier in the day I had her in the milk area (we do not have any sort of head gate for her) and she wouldn't let me milk her (may have already mentioned this) so I got the rope and Brisket and tied her belly and he had no trouble finding a teat or two. He sucked and sucked and sucked and sucked til her tough old nipples were warm and soft and she had enough. SO was tailing her while Brisket and I were milking (tailing was working better than the rope-it was too soft and wouldn't stay tight) on her- and I kid you not we were there for over an hour. I could see some give in her bag where Brisket was working on her but where I was wasn't really softening up. I swear I milked til I hurt and still she was huge.

Then she wasn't letting any more milk down. I just couldn't get anymore to squeeze out. I went to talk with her while Brisket was still there, petted her and talked sweet but she had enough.

We went to get the bull calf born today, Chuck Roast but it was pitch black when we got home and we were covered in goats. Brisket was in the corner alone and Ms Moo was still in the barn.

I will be on my own in the morning with 2 calves and a hungry, swollen cow and a belly rope. SO will be leaving for work at 2am so I've got no other choice but to toughen up and work on her some more. I like to think I'm pretty tough; took an ankle to the eye earlier and didn't give up.

Obviously it wasn't that bad.

Do you think that by laying with her while she labored I caused the calf to present wrong? I did watch her from the front porch with binoculars but got scared when she was lying in a corpse position after about an hour. I have a ton of friends who give birth at home in a bathtub with a doula and I just thought she might like a little comfort. I know I am not experienced in all of this farm stuff but I feel it is very important I am a good steward of these amazing animals, as they were given to us to take care of so they will nourish us properly. Had I not been there lying with her when her water broke I would have NEVER known how far she had progressed and how long it had been since the labor started and could have very well waited way too long and ended up with a dead cow. Had I not known when the water broke I could have very well gone to bed and figured she would have done her thing in the middle of the night. I thought she was going to calf Wednesday-so clearly I don't know what is going on, but I do not feel being with her was the wrong thing to do.

So that's where we are. Seemed this morning all the afterbirth had passed; she had nothing still coming out of her. I am not sure we are any better off than before and I have got to figure out what to do about her udder.

CaliannG · #62 08/27/12, 10:43 PM

Build a cow bondage stockage? When I have a goat acting up, I tie both legs apart (to the milkstand, put and upsidedown bucket under her chest (Maybe a 5 gallon bucket for a cow?) and tie their halter firmly to feed tray. I don't know how to do that with a cow, though.

Does she have food in front of her the entire time? I know cows are different, but food tends to distract goats.

Sorry I am not more help. The only cows we ever had were a couple of steers for meat when I was a kid. The only think I learned for those steers (one every other year) is that I REALLY hate Jersey steers, and I REALLY like Angus steers.

PrettyPaisley · #63 08/27/12, 10:46 PM

TONS of feed. I keep an extra full bucket close by incase she blows through the first. Today she was over the feed and dumped the bucket out in disgust. She was tied at the neck to a barn post so she was none too happy.

Alice In TX/MO · #64 08/28/12, 02:51 AM

Being with her in labor had NOTHING to do with the malpresentation. AT ALL. Do NOT worry about that.

Keep after the milking. Her udder is engorged (full of blood circulating to make milk) as well as full of milk. It may be a few days before the engorgement lessens, but just keep milking. Both of you will get the hang of it.

Sherry in Iowa · #65 08/28/12, 07:37 AM

'Do you think that by laying with her while she labored I caused the calf to present wrong?'

Oh my..heavens no.

I do NOT think that you caused anything to go wrong. I just get a little concerned..especially with new people to a certain livestock..that the people could get into trouble..not so much the animal.

If she were in a herd..no doubt she would have wanted privacy to go have her baby. They get up and move here all the time because another cow/goat gets too close to them. Their natural instinct is to get up, move, isolate themselves, eat the afterbirth and hide the calf.

In no way am I blaming you for a calf that wasn't lined up right. I simply do not think that laying down with a cow in labor is a great idea. I am truly sorry that you came away from my earlier post thinking that. I guess I missed the part about you being on the porch with binoculars and then going to lay with her thinking that she was in trouble and needing comfort. Really sorry I said anything..really. You seem to have everything under control..like I said..I'm just an old gal who worries about people needlessly. I gotta get more of a life!

Cliff · #66 08/28/12, 07:56 AM

Not your fault the calf misrepresented. But it is very disturbing to cows to have someone there while they're trying to give birth. They'll actually hold the calf in till you leave most times. So it is better in general to just keep tabs but leave them alone.

Your cow doesn't have a lot in her udder at this point, despite the hugely swollen appearance. She has colostrum. The actual milk will come in in quantity in a couple more days. So she probably isn't holding back too much at this point, there just isn't the quantity in there that you're thinking yet. They have a harder time holding back with a calf sucking on them anyway.

Be careful with the tailing - the belly rope is better. Learn to tie it so it doesn't slip. Take duct tape with you and tape it together if you have to for the moment.

PrettyPaisley · #67 08/28/12, 08:57 AM

Sherry. It's okay. I didn't think you were blaming me- After I read what you wrote I thought maybe I did make something go wrong. I should be more careful; when the vet got there she kept scolding me for not bein more cautious around the cow. I m probably foolish but I just don't think she would ever do anything to hurt me.

I'll keep working on her. Was up before the sun this morning trying to get some milking done. My grandpa told me to milk her empty 4-5 times a day but I just can't get her to let me. Of course, he's in his 80s and was raised on a dairy farm so I don't think my efforts will ever compare !

mary,tx · #68 08/28/12, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrettyPaisley

TONS of feed. I keep an extra full bucket close by incase she blows through the first. Today she was over the feed and dumped the bucket out in disgust. She was tied at the neck to a barn post so she was none too happy.

I admittedly don't know much about cows myself, but I know with goats you are not supposed to drastically increase feed after birthing (or any other time.) I may have misread this. I hope so.

Sherry in Iowa · #69 08/28/12, 11:46 AM

A neighbor got killed a few years back..not by his bull..but by his "favorite" cow. He and his son were tagging newborns and there was one left..the fella told his son to go on to the house..he could tag the last calf (his favorite cow's). She took him when he messed with her calf..was she planning on killing the guy? No. Nature took over when she heard the calf bawl and saw the guy holding it..nature.

I'm not ashamed to say that there have been a handful of times that hubby and I were close to getting stomped by a couple of "girls" that are as close to a cow pet as we're gonna get. Why? Because we were doing something to their calves shortly after they were born. This is exactly what we want them to do..you want that attitude when it comes to dog packs and such..we (people) just have to remember that the lines get fuzzy when hormones are involved.

I would hate to see you or anyone else fall for the "it's my pet..it would never hurt me" thing..they are pets in people's minds only..in a herd mentality.. they are vying for pecking order and they are doing what nature so rightly installed in them.

Bottle fed animals can sometimes be the worst. They come with a herd mentality built in, they fit you into that world..whether you are the alpha or not depends alot on how much they respect you. I can dump a dog or goat on it's ear to gain alpha status..I cannot do that with a cow.

Not all animals are going to turn on ya, not all animals are gonna take ya, you respect them as the animals (not pets) that they are.

April · #70 08/28/12, 01:06 PM

Those first few days of milking a newly freshened cow are... painful. She hurts, she's swollen.. she's confused and hormonal. I've spent many a morning with a newly fresh cow just sobbing with throbbing hands and maybe a pint in the bucket. I don't think it's a sin to resort to a dose of oxytocin to help her let down and help you get her milked out until she settles back into the routine. Better that than risk mastitis I think.

DamnearaFarm · #71 08/28/12, 01:39 PM

I'm sorry you lost the calf, Shannon.

I do hope everything went well this morning and you'll all three fall into an easy rhythm soon.

PrettyPaisley · #72 08/28/12, 02:19 PM

The vet left me with a dose of oxytocin for the day after if she was still expelling afterbirth. I didt give it to her because nothing was coming out. Should I give it to her ? This morning was the worst so far.

. Its getting harder instead of easier. Poor Brisket; he takes a knee to the chin in stride though.

CaliannG · #73 08/28/12, 02:46 PM

Oxytocin also causes the cow to let down, whether she wants to or not. If you are having trouble milking, DO give it to her. Also, you might call your vet for more.

I talked to my Mom's BFF, who KNOWS cows. He's been running cows since Christ was a Corporal. He said that for FF Dairies, they would give oxytocin before every milking for a week. After that, the cow's brain had made the association of "milking stauntion = let down" and she would do it on her own. Once the habit was formed, they kept it.

Kinda like our goats associate "milking stand = let down".

ozark_jewels · #74 08/28/12, 02:49 PM

How much did he give you?? 5 ccs is the dose to expel afterbirth. 1 cc is the dose for milk let down. So if he gave you a 5 cc dose as he should have, you should have 5 milkings worth of oxytocin.
Oxytocin MUST be given IM. The fleshy pad between her tail and her hipbone is the best place. Take your closed fist, give her a couple of heavy taps on the spot with your fist, 1, 2, then in sync with the fist, make the 3rd heavy tap the needle punching in. This desensitizes the area and gets you through the thick hide. You can punch it straight in, don't try to go sideways. Unless its an extra-long needle, she will have plenty of muscle there. Don't try to slip it in slow. Cowhide is nothing like goat skin and easily can bend a needle if you try to go gentle. Make sure you rub the spot well as soon as you give the oxytocin, or some may leak back out, accomplishing nothing. Your not pregnant, right? Oxytocin is fine to handle as long as you are NOT pregnant.
Give it after you have put her in the headgate/tie, then take a couple minutes to give her the grain, clean her teats, etc. Or better yet, milk out all she will give you, then give her the 1 cc oxytocin. See if any more lets down.
If no more lets down after the shot, she probably doesn't have anymore.
Seriously, heifers can have an amazing amount of udder edema, and look totally full when empty.
Also, if rope is too soft to stay tied, try another rope. She will find the rope tie less irritating than the tail hold and will relax better overtime. Don't be afraid to tighten rope by quite a bit. You won't hurt her.

ozark_jewels · #75 08/28/12, 03:03 PM

Oh, forgot to mention.
Do anything you can to control that feed consumption. If feeding her in a small trough, give her a bigger one. Cows shovel their food so if the trough is big, she will spend more time shoving it from corner to corner to get the last licks.
You can put large rocks in the feeder, so she has to move them around with her nose to reach all the feed.
You can give her her ration in three-four pourings instead of all at once. This will make her spend more time cleaning up the dregs each time before you give her more.
Is your grain a pelleted sweet-type feed?? If so, see if you can get your hands on a similiar protien level ground feed. Doesn't have to be dairy feed, just ground cow feed. Try mixing this with her pelleted sweet feed as part of her ration. As she slowly gets used to it, you can make the ground feed, more and more of her ration. Ground feeds take much more work, time and saliva for cows to eat. We always use a ground feed. Of course maybe you already do?

Anyway, try to get her backed off of so much grain. Certainly no more than her usual ration. Too much grain at this point will be causing more udder edema and probably more milk. This will cause her to be even more sore to the touch. Vicious circle and all that.....

I wish I were closer, I'd just come help ya. I feel for both you and the heifer!

ozark_jewels · #76 08/28/12, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrettyPaisley

I'll keep working on her. Was up before the sun this morning trying to get some milking done. My grandpa told me to milk her empty 4-5 times a day but I just can't get her to let me. Of course, he's in his 80s and was raised on a dairy farm so I don't think my efforts will ever compare !

If you could, that would be fine. But don't think you are slacking because you can't. 99% of dairy heifers get milked twice a day from day one of lactation and turn out just fine.

ozark_jewels · #77 08/28/12, 03:18 PM

Couldn't tell, sounded as if maybe you are feeding her in a bucket? If so and you don't have a trough, its really easy to knock together a rough very useable trough with whatever is laying around.
I used to build our Jerseys feed troughs when I was 10 with a few nails, a handsaw, some scrap barn lumber, and a hammer.
Since then I've graduated to a powersaw and screws, but still pretty much the same.

Just cut equal lengths of untreated lumber the length you want your feed trough to be. I'd reccomend long enough that she has to really extend her neck either way to get it licked out really well, when she is tied/in headgate. Don't make it longer than that or she will s-t-r-e-t-c-h to get it and may move her back feet at an in-opportune time.
Cut two end pieces the width you want your trough.
I like something as big as 2 x 6s for the ends and the sides. This makes a taller trough with less spillage.
Screw long boards to the short boards to make the bottom and the ends. Add the sides. You got a rough useable feed trough. No, your cow will not get tongue splinters, but the wood will get real smooth after a few months/years.

I'm sorry if this is not easy to visualize but if you get the picture, I'm sure you can do it. I've never bought lumber for a feed trough in my life. They are usually recycled barn oak, etc. Use what you got, as long as its not treated wood.

ozark_jewels · #78 08/30/12, 10:58 AM

Hey, how is it going with the heifer and the new calves?? Thinking of your fresh heifer issues while I was milking this morning so I snapped some pics for you. Munch was nice enough to stand while I did the cinch on her. As you can see, it didn't bother her at all, she just kept right on eating!!

Since y'all are so helpful ... - Goats

Before.

Other side.

And I don't know what I was thinking, I do not use a slipknot. I said I did, but as my fingers automatically tied the knot, I realized I do not!