Cow people vs. goat people
 

Just a litte bit of difference, huh? ;)

Oh, you noticed? :D

I used to have registered and crossbred Beefmaster cattle. In the mid-90s, there was a bad drought in my part of Texas, and I took them all to the auction. Broke my heart, as it was my lifelong dream to raise cattle.

I had a grumpy Beefmaster cross cow named after my mother. My bull's name was Texas Ranger, and he was HUGE, galumphing, and if I held a range cube in my mouth, he'd wrap his tongue around it to take it gently.

All the cows had names: Godzilla, Arnold, No Ears, etc etc etc.

Now I have dairy goats.

Cattle are nice, but dairy goats are part of the family.

I'm more of a crazy goat lady, I think. It's a different level of passion.

LONG LIVE CRAZY GOAT LADIES!!

(btw, Alice, are you going to be able to join us at Uncle Rooster's next week?)

I don't think so. Hubby's here from Texas, and there is much to do. He's going to help me with the final staging of Lonnie's estate stuff for the auction.

Bummer for the CGL meeting, but glad that hubs is in town for you, and that you're settling the estate. So much work!

Its the goats. They tend to rub off on you, both literally and figuratively. I have both, but only a stinky whether would come crawl in my lap when I am rubbing LGD's belly. Cows aren't into that scene, fortunately.

You don't think a certain type of person falls for goats while another would prefer to handle cattle ? Of course you could be right; I never had much use for animals of any sort until I wanted clean milk and bought I goat. Then I got a little loopy. ;) Sadly my cow doesn't want that kinda loving' from me. I think that might speak to both of those points. ;)

I think women, especially ones who are new to farm animals, who want a milk animal will tend to try goats first. Not sure it's specifically a type of person who prefers one over the other but more situational and experience related.

I don't especially have a preference between goats and cows from a utility standpoint. Both have their good and bad points. I do sometimes get frustrated with the goats and ask myself why I keep them around. Their good points have won out, so far.

Maybe so, but when I got baby chicks I sure didn't go gag-gag. Same this the LGDs. I tolerate them and they would love more attention but I leave that tasks to the kids.

I was just thinking about personalities of people who do goats vs those who do cows. I've even talked to some locals who do cows and I think we (we people here on this board) are far more effervescent than the cow people I know. :happy:

I think the biggest difference is that cattle people see livestock as a revenue producing asset just like anything else. Cattle, goats, etc are an asset. People that tend to make goats a part of the family see them as pets and not assets.

With "asset" type people, we take care of our asset, but when it outlives it's useful purpose, it is replaced (culling). We don't spend money on an asset that isn't making a profit. With the "pet" people, they will keep a goat and spend a fortune taking care of one animal whether it ever produces an income or not.

Typically, my experience has shown me that it usually has to do with a person's background. If they are city converts, then they tend to be "pet" people and can't see livestock as assets. People that are raised in a farming/ranching family tend not to make pets of everything and view them as assets.

Even my dog is an asset. If he can't do his job and earn his keep, he too, would get replaced even as hard as it would be to do that.

Every animal here from the cattle, to the goats, to the dog, to the cats, and to the horses MUST earn their keep or they are no longer considered a useful asset.

The two differences also: one will work to support the homestead while the other lets the homestead support them.

Are Dexter people cow people then, or some strange hybrid of goat person/cow person?

Maybe?

We are a mixed household :)

My oldest is crazy goat girl. My 16 yr old and I love cows.

That said, we all love both, it just depends I suppose.

I do like goats for sure, we have plenty of them! But cows hold a special place in my heart, I love a dairy cow.

We are moving to smaller acreage, much smaller, and I'm realizing I might need to not get another cow which makes me sad. I told my daughter we will look for mini's of some sort!

After writing this and calling my oldest crazy goat girl I realized her goal (right now) is to work on a cow dairy as a Vet (it's in the running at least). She has been the Jersey Princess and is only not a Dairy Princess this year because of over scheduling.

So I guess maybe I can't say she doesn't love cows as much as I do. Hhhhmmm, have to think about that again for awhile. She does prefer to have goats at home though.

I guess what you're noticing is the difference in the subset of people who enjoy a little more of a pet type relationship with their goats.

I do notice a difference between those type ppl and the ones who run goats or cows as a business or strictly for utility. Not much difference in goat and cow ppl who have the animals for profit from what I've seen.

Another aspect is the historical/anthropological one. Goats have been domesticated for a LONG LONG time, and they fit into the lives of humans in a much more intimate way. Centuries of breeding, especially in dairy goats, have created an animal that relates to humans on many levels.

One of the things I'm studying (in a casual sort of way) is their body language and how to use physical signals they understand in my communication with them.

After having owned cattle before, and now being a CGL, I can testify that goats care a whole lot more about you, your mood, and their interactions with you than a cow is capable of.

~ponders~ I don't think it is so much a "pet" aspect. I know cattle ranchers, I know goat ranchers, I know small holders of both species. Men, women, all. Bought hay from a guy last year who has the prettiest herd of Piedmontese that you ever saw. He mentioned how, that morning, he came out to a new-born calf laying nose deep in green, growing rye grass.

"That's the prettiest thing you ever can see; I don't care who ya are." He said.

Yeah, he gets pretty emotional over that small herd of Pieds. And his Daddy raised Angus on several hundred acres all of his young life.

I think it has more to do with Dairy verses Meat, and large verses small operations. Dairy, who are handled twice per day, are going to be more human friendly than meat breeds on the range. That human friendliness touches us.

The same if you have 10 animals, verses 100 animals. You are going to interact individually with 10 animals than your are with 100. With 100, the animals have numbers; with 10, they have names.

With one, they are a part of the family. There is a reason 'Ol Bessy was called the "Family Cow". A small holder can appreciate, more, what Bessie is doing for the family, providing milk, butter, and cheese for everyone, down to the chickens and the herd dog. Providing a calf each spring that, when butchered in fall, would provide that family's meat for the entire year. Yeah, 'Ol Bessie was a heavily contributing member of the family and, depending upon her temperament, the kids might have memories of climbing on her back, hugging her, and feeding her daisies. Since she could live, and produce, for 20 years or more, 'Ol Bessie could have been a stable constant throughout their entire young lives.

And when she got old, sick, and it was time for her to be put down, they might well have cried for her.

Goats don't live as long as cows, and at current management, dairy goats have about a decade of productive lives, which is about as long as your regular Newfoundland or Saint Bernard. SMALL holders, whose animals provide for a family, are, of course, more likely to get emotionally attached than someone running 30, 50, or 100 head. They interact with the animals on a regular basis, and see the animals as individuals, with their own personalities.

Sure, large and/or commercial producers see "assets". For myself, personally, I don't think seeing ANY living being as simply an "asset" is either a good, or a Christian, thing to do. Caring mainly for the bottom line is, in my opinion, the very reason for all of the ill and suffering in the world today.

And, for me, personally, I prefer not to associate with people who consider their "profit margins" more important than the living creatures under their management, whether those living creatures are their employees or their animals.

I have to say that I just don't consider any of the animals, cows, goats, or even the dog, part of the family. They are stock. They have personalities, and I enjoy them. But they are certainly NOT like them I gave birth to.:rolleyes: When I lose an animal, I do shed a tear, and am sad for a day. But it is not devastating, like losing a member of the family would be.

I agree with the farmer who said nothing is more beautiful than a newborn calf. I'm hoping to have some next year. Hoping. I'm certainly not confident in this little runty wagyu bull we brought home.

I think I started with goats mainly because they are smaller, and I figured I could manage them myself.

I'm less afraid of large animals than I used to be.

Hey, my hubby is part of the family, and I didn't give birth to him. :) Did give him a kidney, however.

My goats provide me with essential nutrition on a daily basis, entertain me, are affectionate, and require my help for *their* food and care.

Sounds a lot like children.:D

I have a very tame Scottie cow that I milk out in the field. She's awesome, I much prefer her to the dairy goats I used to have. I switched from goats to yaks/cattle, and I won't be going back. I prefer the bigger, more mellow critters. As an added bonus, they don't jump on my stuff :)

Wagyu bull? Are those the African breed with the HUGE, thick horns that sick out from the top of their heads? If so, there is a whole herd of them about 2 miles down the road from me.

Member of the family is....relative. Am I going to be as devastated if a goat dies as I would if my mother, daughter, son, husband or sister died? No. That is absolutely silly.

But I'll probably cry more when dealing with the body of the goat than I would at the funeral of a cousin twice removed whom I hadn't seen or spoken to since I was a kid. It is all about how deeply one is connected to the person/animal.

As humans, we respond to words and actions that we interpret as communicating "love". The more of those words and actions we get, the more likely we are going to become emotionally attached. With another human, we interpret words PLUS actions as conveying "love". If we get the words without the actions, we will eventually become dissatisfied and unbelieving. If we get the actions without the without the words, we will be at least a little resentful. Communication is VERY important in the bonds we form with others, whether they be friends we love, or mates. The sense of connection and agreement is communicated with words.

Most animals only have actions to tell us how they feel. (I say "Most" because some parrots can communicate their wants, needs, and feelings with words, but they are not common.) Because they are not able to communicate with us in words, even at the level of a child, we are not going to get as emotionally attached to them as we would another human with whom we shared similar time, and personality.

That being said, it doesn't mean that we don't enjoy ANY connection with animals, Their actions that say, "I want to spend time with you and be close to you" do, indeed, translate as "love" across species boundaries. The more time spent with them, the more an attachment can grow.

But a person who interacts briefly with dozens, or hundreds, of animals per day is not going to care for them as individuals any more than a cashier who interacts briefly with dozens or hundreds of customers per day is is going to care for them as individuals.

"Mrs. Smith, you know, the lady who always wears that weird hat? She passed on yesterday."

"Oh. I hope it was peaceful. Please give my condolences to her family for me."

End of thought. End of emotion. The cashier is not going to cry over Mrs. Smith. She might cry for a week, though, if she comes home and finds her cat has passed on. Her cat was a daily, and major, part of her life. Mrs. Smith was not.

For those of us whose livestock is more a part of our lives than feeding and milking time, emotional attachment will occur.

And I don't think that people who give their large herds of numbered livestock the LEAST amount of care they can get away with without actual damage to the animals, so that their profits are maximized, are in any way superior (and in my opinion, are morally and ethically INFERIOR) to those of us who attempt to give our livestock the BEST care available.

We are, after all, still making a profit in production verses input. We just aren't making AS MUCH of a profit as people who don't care.

I dunno, there are plenty of us that have both and enjoy them both.:teehee: I'm going out now to milk our beautiful Jerseys.:)

Sort of sounds like children, but, no, they are decidedly not my children. Once when I was pregnant I dreamed I had a puppy. Now wouldn't THAT be disappointing?

Yea, hubby is part of the family, for sure. But the animals are not.

No, Wagyu are Japanese. The ones that we have, at least, are polled. If you missed that whole story of how we brought home the Wagyu, be glad.

Caliann are you equating raising animals for profit with not caring about them? Not caring about them as much? Most people who raise animals for profit do enjoy the animals I think. You'll always have people who don't care for whatever reason but I think the majority do. There are lots easier ways to make money if you don't like animals. Yes you do have to be more objective if you're doing it as a business but does that = not caring?

There are a few people I can think of on this board that don't raise goats for profit per se but are still very grounded and objective with definite limits on what they're willing to put into any one animal even though they obviously care very much about their goats

I dont know if there is a difference or not. I havent met to many locally with dairy cattle. Zero actually, they arent to common here, atleast not for small operation folks. We dont really have pastures around here, meat cattle have LARGE ranges here I dont think would be good for dairy cattle.

that said I think of my animals as assets even though I am a small holder. I dont think of them as family, or even friends really. I respect them and treat and feed them well. I like them (most of the time ;)) but I wouldnt have them if it wasnt for the milk and meat they provide. I wouldnt eat friends, or even the children of friends. I dont really use their names unless talking to others about them. When interacting with the goats I use body language and attitude to show what I want or expect. It seems to work well enough. they seem to like and trust me, especially when I have food!! lol

edited to ad-- I hope I didnt offend any other goat owners!! I do treat them well. Before to long they will even have about 1/4 acre fenced with a 30-40 foot or so rock face to climb! I just dont think of them as pets or family.

One of the phrases I learned on this board is that there are "as many ways to feed goats as there are goat owners." I think this can be adapted to....

There are as many ways to feel about goats as there are goat owners.

~smiles~ Cliff, people who raise animals for profit DO NOT care about and for the animals as much as those who are emotionally attached to the animals. HOW many times have you, Paul, and other people gotten on to those of us that put even a FEW extra $$ into our animals for "thinking of them too much as pets" or "not being objective enough"?

HOW many times have those of you with larger herds gotten on to those of us who do so about how we just put too much money into testing and becoming knowledgeable about our herd health? I have heard from ALL of the larger herd people how they just can't test because it is too expensive and cuts into the profit margin.

How many things do I consider a matter of course, watching for mineral deficiency, doing copper boluses, Bo-Se, etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum, that makes my small herd some of the healthiest, shiniest stock around, that ya'll sneer at as putting FAR too much labor and money into livestock?

Tell me, Cliff, how many "commercial" herds SHOW, in their health, their coats, kidding losses, etc., etc, the level of care that is shown in my herd, or Alice's herd, of Vicki McGaugh's, herd, or Emily's herd, or Susie's herd? Or any number of small herds on this board?

So yes, I am saying, flat out, that people who run commercial herds do not care as much for their stock.

Show me ONE commercial dairy herd of goats as healthy as mine, whose coats feel like silk, who are glossy, in good condition, have no deficiencies, and who live in an environment that is, at least, semi-pleasant (doesn't stink to high heaven of manure and urine that you can smell from a quarter mile away), and I might change my mind.

Show me ONE commercial meat herd that is tested and negative for CL and CAE, with the proof in the paperwork, and I will concede that there is at least one large, commercial breeders that truly CARES for the health of his or her stock.

Just ONE, Cliff. Show me where, so that I can run my hands over their coats, look at their feet for overgrowth, check them for abscess scars, etc. Show me ONE, and I will concede.

But until you can show me that herd, then just swallow your medicine like a man. Commercial producers care FAR more about their bottom line than they ever will about the welfare of their animals.

I can't recall doing any of the things you're accusing me of either directly or indirectly via "y'all." The only problem I have with folks making goats pets is the behavior problems it causes with bucks.

But I guess I do understand what you're saying about the big goat producers. I was thinking more of cattle I guess since I have a fair sized herd. They take less input than goats to be in their best condition.

~smiles~ A cow, either by itself, or in a herd, takes less effort to keep in good health and condition than a goat, either by itself, or in a herd.

MOST of that is due to the fact that the U.S.A. has, in the past, done most of the livestock research, and frankly, the U.S. is a beef nation. We KNOW more about what cows need and what makes them tick.

In the late 80's, TAMU had a herd of Holsteins with tinted "windows" in their sides. I had to pass by them every day, as it was on my way to work. Admittedly, the first 10 or 15 times I passed them, I would stare...it's just too weird to have a herd of cows with tinted windows in their side, yanno? But, they learned a LOT about how a cow's gastro-intestinal track works, using special lights to peer through those big, 2 ft. square windows. I have yet to see a herd of goats with windows installed in their sides. I have yet to even meet someone for the Goat Research Center who knows as much about caprine nutrition and mineral needs as *I* do. ~sighs~ All the speakers we have had tend to go into a litany of "Uhhh, I don't know." even when I face them with questions that I have researched and found the studies for *myself*.

That being the case, perhaps if other countries who DO use goats as their main milk and meat animal had our resources, we would know more about the EASY ways to manage goats...like we know for cows. Until then, it is difficult and expensive to do it right.

Wow, such antagonism towards those who actually try to make a living with their livestock!

I could pull up a dozen threads here about people who abuse or neglect their animals and I bet that at least 90% of them would be people with a few animals, not commercial producers.

Wow, 65284, troll much?

tinknal, I am not saying there are not BAD small owners. Heck, the most LIKELY scenario to find a neglected goat in is some idiot that got one or some for his/her backyard, thinking they could survive on nothing but a few wisps of centipede grass and some moldy hay.

Oh, wait, that is the most likely scenario that you'll find just about ANY neglected livestock in!

I am not speaking of ignorant and idiotic newbies, which are the bane of every animal on the planet, bar none. I am narrowing the focus to those who actually *know something about the animals they are raising*.

Up at the sale barn, it is not the person with the 15 head of cattle who has been forced by Mother Nature to sell out that brings in skinny, emaciated stock. It is the big rancher, who has held on to his stock (to their detriment) to the very last moment, to the point that there isn't even wooly weed left in his pasture, that is bringing in 50-100 head of stock that are so bad off, I am wondering how they are managing to even stand.

It was COMMERCIAL people bringing in the emaciated animals last year (and this year too!), of horses, cattle, sheep, and yes, goats. You see a little group of those animals, 10 head or so, brought in by one person, and odds are, those animals have some flesh, even in the drought.

Bottom line. It's always the bottom line, and be ----ed how the animals suffer!

There are no fewer than THREE chicken places within 10 miles of me. I see the chickens being shipped all the time. Poor things, half of their feathers gone, raw, red skin, etc. They are probably grateful that they are going to be slaughtered, it will end their hell. And no, it is NOT from time on the road....I see the trucks pull out of the plants, and I just feel pity for the animals in there.

In Colorado, there were two, large, cattle dairies near me. Whew, if the wind changed! Ye God, you could smell them! I drove up to both of them. Again, I felt pity. Those poor creatures! Ugh!

Now, meat herds have it easier. They are pretty much let loose on the range where they graze until it is time for them to be rounded up and go to slaughter or sale. Not a bad life. Of course, they are not getting much in the way of health care, but it is better than some of their brethern.

That is, if they are in a commercial operation where they have ENOUGH range per animal. Some of them are stingy on the land, so the poor things just languish there, hungry. Or dry lots, where they get to stand shoulder to shoulder with there fellows, unable to move somewhere that they are not standing in excrement.

These are common, everyday sites in commercial and factory farming and ranching. Nothing new. Tell me any of these animals would rather stay where they are, or come live in my clean, open pasture, with regular health care, proper feed, and care?

So yes, a bit of antagonism against those that make their profits on the backs of livestock. Some of us keep our own livestock so that OUR food doesn't come from those conditions. If we agreed with commercial practices and management, it would be easier to just buy our food from the grocery store, right?

I think it's simply a distinction between commercial/profit vs pet/hobby instead of cow vs goat.

I know pet/hobby cattle owners who pamper their cattle just like crazy goat people pamper their goats. I also know plenty of people who run goats like commercial beef herds.

Are some experienced hobby herds taken care of better than commercial herds? Yes, simply because a hobby herd doesn't have a bottom line to watch out after. A commercial herd is for profit, you're not going to drop $600 of vet care on a $200 goat. Doesn't mean they leave it to suffer. They'll most likely go ahead and harvest it and cut their losses.

Does that mean that commercial herds abuse or neglect their animals? Nope. That's their investment you're going to protect your investment and keep animals in good health, but not hurt your bottom line. A commercial keeper is not going to spend $600 in vet care on a $200 animal.

*shrugs* Different priorities, different management practices... As long as the critters are cared for.

I've met good and bad of both.

All's I know is, I think jerseys are absolutely gorgeous, but I've never heard of a cow who would follow you around trying to lick you like a certain goat I know. ;)

Caliann, dont take this the wrong way, but you seem very... angry at people who make a living off the farm (livestock) and dont spend, as wolffeathers said, $600 on a $200 animal.
I just cant see how one can justify taking that money from the mouths of the family and other animals.

Had a Jersey that would do that, MaddieLynn. :) Oh, the STORIES! One involving my brother, his girlfriend, an attempt to find some privacy in the barn, and what a LARGE cow tongue can do to some tender areas...and what it feels like to have one's head go through a roof in sheer fright.

They will! A good Jersey milk cow is a treasure. I like their personalities better than goats, if they like you it's because they really have affection for you. With goats it usually seems like they like you because you give them stuff :)

I had an old Jersey cow who was just the nicest calmest kindest thing. She'd take any calf you brought her, and more than one. She'd follow you around licking you. She loved having just behind her topknot scratched. I miss that old girl.

collegeboundgirl, *I* don't pend $600 on a $200 goat. Jeez! That is STUPID! That "comparison" was an attempt to trivialize competent care for goats.

Tell me this: If you are spending $1,000 a month just in feed, plus another $1,000 in hay on your critters, why is it such a problem to spend $400 per YEAR to make sure they are tested and disease free? Or $800 per YEAR to make sure they are not mineral deficient? THAT is the cost comparison.

If a commercial operation is spending $24,000 a year just on feed, you can't tell me that forking over that extra $1,200 is oh, so terrible! No, they don't do it because that is beyond the absolute minimum, necessary care needed to keep the animal functioning and producing. Profit MARGIN. Not that they don't MAKE a profit, but the MARGIN...how MUCH they make, is what keeps those animals from getting more than the bare minimum.

So don't give me the "spend $600 on a $200 animal!" stuff. This is more like "Spending $20 extra bucks on a $200 animal to ensure it stays healthy for longer".

This isnt trolling, its an opinion.

However, my opinion is that it is completely, and utterly ridiculous :D

Caliann, I didn't mean to upset you with my post. I was simply making a comparison between my own livestock and my "pets". It wasn't meant to be a stupid comment to trivialize competent goat care.

If I had the money and one of my pet goats(which cost me $50 and not $200) needed $600 vet care, I would probably dish it out. Stupid? Maybe, but they provide me with companionship and amusement and I may just have $600 worth of emotions wrapped up in that goat. So it may be financially stupid, but *shrug*. Now if it was one of my old scrub or boer goats? A swift and humane end would have been in order.

I was only comparing my own practices between MY "pets" and my "stock". I wasn't attempting to trivialize anyone.