Talk me through castrating please?

silverseeds · #21 08/23/12, 05:59 PM

Oh man, as a male this thread is real hard for me to read. id rather kill him, and deal with any off tastes.

Cliff · #22 08/23/12, 06:02 PM

I think of it as the difference of a post surgical soreness vs someone putting a tight rubber band around my ...erm... till it dies. Which sounds like it hurts worse?

silverseeds · #23 08/23/12, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cliff

I think of it as the difference of a post surgical soreness vs someone putting a tight rubber band around my ...erm... till it dies. Which sounds like it hurts worse?

neither sounds good to me.

Im not even sure I could do it. Id hate for my wife to have this skill either.

Shygal · #24 08/23/12, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silverseeds

Oh man, as a male this thread is real hard for me to read. id rather kill him, and deal with any off tastes.

As a female I am still sitting here cringing and squirming and I don't even have those parts

**mygoat** · #25 08/23/12, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cliff

I think of it as the difference of a post surgical soreness vs someone putting a tight rubber band around my ...erm... till it dies. Which sounds like it hurts worse?

Just by going by their behavior... I'd say surgery. I wouldn't call it post-surgery 'soreness'... I'd call it PAIN. After placing a band, I'd call that result 'soreness'. Granted, I haven't seen a TON done... but all the ones I've seen were not comfortable days after cutting. Just my experience. The longest I've seen ouchiness in bucklings was in young ones done, and it lasted 24 hrs or less. Usually I band them in the evening (easier to catch wild dam raised bucklings when they can't see you comin'!) and by morning, 100% normal.

At the MI State beef feedlot, the manager says most feedlots will band incoming cattle if they come in as bulls. Apparently, its far less stressful than the other forms and causes far less stress and shows the least affect on weight gain. Other forms can halt growth for weeks. They use the Calicrate type bander - adjusts to every size. I wanted the new mini calicrate bander for my goats, but the tool is expensive and so are the bands.

To me, banding is the least painful/most humane.

Pony · #26 08/23/12, 07:14 PM

Cutting seems kindest.

Side note of interest: When we had our pup castrated a few months back, he chewed the sutures out, which left a gaping wound. I did not panic, but I'm sure I was a bit tense when I called the vet. She assured me that the dog would be fine, that the surgical incision would heal great, there was no need to re-suture (as he'd probably chew them out anyhow).

He healed very well. No soreness, no infection, no problem at all.

CaliannG · #27 08/23/12, 07:15 PM

~laughs and shakes her head~ If my DH starts anthropomorphizing and either treats the doe's udders like he treats *my*...erm.....

OR treats my "girls" like he does the doe's udders...there are going to be some PROBLEMS.

Banding is less painful than cutting, because the nerves DIE. Now, being humans, ya'll can appreciate doing such things with the least amount of discomfort.

Being humans, though, ya'll are able to understand what it MEANS. Which is why ya'll are thinking of the "quick cut, get it over with, I don't want to *watch* my Family Jewels shrivel away and contemplate that!"

Goats, dogs, cats, etc., don't contemplate it, because they don't understand what it MEANS. They would rather have the least pain instead, thankyouverymuch, and leave the contemplating to those with the higher brain function.

Cliff · #28 08/23/12, 08:33 PM

Not sure you guys appreciate how much pain is involved in tissue dying from ischemia. The pain is extreme. Yes I'd definitely call post cutting discomfort soreness compared to that.

Of course feedlots would choose banding given the environment.

Cliff · #29 08/23/12, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

~laughs and shakes her head~ If my DH starts anthropomorphizing and either treats the doe's udders like he treats *my*...erm.....

OR treats my "girls" like he does the doe's udders...there are going to be some PROBLEMS.

Banding is less painful than cutting, because the nerves DIE. Now, being humans, ya'll can appreciate doing such things with the least amount of discomfort.

Being humans, though, ya'll are able to understand what it MEANS. Which is why ya'll are thinking of the "quick cut, get it over with, I don't want to *watch* my Family Jewels shrivel away and contemplate that!"

Goats, dogs, cats, etc., don't contemplate it, because they don't understand what it MEANS. They would rather have the least pain instead, thankyouverymuch, and leave the contemplating to those with the higher brain function.

Yes I understand all that. My example was to make people think. But I realize now people don't understand the level of pain that comes with ischemia.

silverseeds · #30 08/23/12, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

~laughs and shakes her head~ If my DH starts anthropomorphizing and either treats the doe's udders like he treats *my*...erm.....

OR treats my "girls" like he does the doe's udders...there are going to be some PROBLEMS.

Banding is less painful than cutting, because the nerves DIE. Now, being humans, ya'll can appreciate doing such things with the least amount of discomfort.

Being humans, though, ya'll are able to understand what it MEANS. Which is why ya'll are thinking of the "quick cut, get it over with, I don't want to *watch* my Family Jewels shrivel away and contemplate that!"

Goats, dogs, cats, etc., don't contemplate it, because they don't understand what it MEANS. They would rather have the least pain instead, thankyouverymuch, and leave the contemplating to those with the higher brain function.

Well Im the one who is always milking the goats. im sure my wife would be equally upset if I treated the udders as I do her parts. that said, I bet shed get a bit squeamish if I handed her a knife and had her go cut those parts off, or band them off.

I get your point, I do. They are farm animals after all, and some of them are destined for the table here as well. But dang Im already going to eat the poor fellows in that position, thats enough of a sacrifice for anything to undertake!

**mygoat** · #31 08/23/12, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cliff

Not sure you guys appreciate how much pain is involved in tissue dying from ischemia. The pain is extreme. Yes I'd definitely call post cutting discomfort soreness compared to that.

Of course feedlots would choose banding given the environment.

Then why does banding seem to be more tolerable by the animals than does cutting?

CaliannG · #32 08/23/12, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cliff

But I realize now people don't understand the level of pain that comes with ischemia.

I wouldn't just assume that, if I were you. You know what assuming does.

Ischemia hurts like h*** at first....but it numbs down in a couple of hours. What REALLY hurts, I mean drop-to-floor-screaming-hurt, is if/when circulation/blood/glucose is *restored*. THAT hurts!

Shygal · #33 08/23/12, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cliff

Yes I understand all that. My example was to make people think. But I realize now people don't understand the level of pain that comes with ischemia.

I do, from seeing both at the hospital. Its really hard to decide which is worse. I think cutting with numbing, would be the very best option.

Cutting without, and banding would both be painful

Cliff · #34 08/23/12, 09:58 PM

Pain from ischemia really doesn't ease up much in just a couple of hours. Animals instinctively hide their pain well but even so to me it's usually obvious that banded goats are in some level of pain for about a day. As with anything it's harder on some than others. In the hospital with people ischemic pain is difficult, to really control it you need iv morphine. Even then relief doesn't last very long. Some of the worst pain there is in humans is ischemic pain. Can't see as it'd be very different in goats. Banded goats often have a sick with pain look in their eyes to me. After personally witnessing many times just how bad that type of pain is in humans and how difficult it is to completely control even with iv narcotics I feel for them.

Don't really want to fight over which method is better. I banded my own buck kids this year because it was so late and the flies were bad. If conditions were better I would've cut them. I think people choose banding automatically because it's easier and because even squeamish people can do it. And they seem to tend to think it's no big deal for the animal. It is a big deal and shouldn't be taken so lightly. And like a previous poster mentioned, it may be worse for the very young ones as the bands might not quite as effectively cut off blood flow which could cause ongoing agony until swelling finally does cause the blood flow to be cut completely off.

Cliff · #35 08/23/12, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygoat

Then why does banding seem to be more tolerable by the animals than does cutting?

Maybe you're looking at length of time of discomfort? Post surgical soreness does last a few days but still I'd take that any day over the excruciating pain of ischemia.

CaliannG · #36 08/23/12, 10:16 PM

I don't think EITHER method is particularly pleasant. I am no fan of knives either. Heck, I chose natural birth over a V-section (having done both previously) because, even without drugs, natural birth was less painful overall.

With banding, there is less chance of infection. Infection is painful and life threatening.

There are pros and cons to both methods and I don't treat either one, painwise, LIGHTLY. Blood doesn't particularly make me squeamish (I was a combat medic in the Army), neither does surgery or sutures, and if that is the best way, with the least amount of pain, to get things done, that is the way I will do it.

I simply believe, honestly, that banding is less painful, and less likely to lead to secondary infections, than cutting.

I don't band young. I prefer to wait until they are at least 3 months old.

I also don't think banding is necessarily "easier". I, for one, have a heck of a time with those stupid, overgrown, rubber bands.

Shygal · #37 08/24/12, 10:54 AM

The simple solution is to tell all your does and buck to produce doelings only

BjnMe98 · #38 08/24/12, 11:14 PM

A good read about castration.

How to Neuter an Adult Buck - Dairy Goat Care and Management