Why do goats need so much stuff?
 

I keep reading about copper and minerals and salts and baking soda and what nots.

Being a new goat keeper I am wondering................

Why do they need all that stuff?

I see many goat herds when I travel teh back roads that dont have shelter or feeders or anything and they look fine and healthy. Am I just not seeing the supplements or do some goats not need them?

LOL they dont seem to need any help in eating the Galapagos Islands!

Dairy goats are not natural, brush-eating, short lactation, subsistence level animals. They are hot house flowers.

Any animal that size that produces that much milk, over and above what a couple of kids need, for MONTHS longer than a normal lactation is going to need superlative care to be healthy.

Goats evolved eating browse - high quality high mineral growing tips or seed heads of plants. They inherently need more minerals than animals that evolved grazing because of that. Plus eating that way they weren't exposed to many internal parasites.

The way we keep them now is totally unnatural for what their bodies need. Hence the supplemental minerals, sometimes more worming than grazing animals need, etc.

The baking soda would be mostly for dairy animals who are fed so much grain that it throws off their natural acid/alkaline balance. Grain makes them acidic. The baking soda balances the acidity. I personally don't think you have to feed them piles of grain to milk them. But you have to be good at watching their condition and not let them milk gallons a day in that case.

I bet if you (or some of us, being more experienced with goats) could get a good close look at all those "healthy" field goats lots of them really wouldn't be all that healthy. People who haven't educated themselves about goats tend to think you can treat them like cows and they'll be fine. Yeah lots of them limp along but lots also die. And the ones that don't often aren't very productive and have short lives.

We know a big time breeder of boers that is in Tennessee and he does mostly sells at auctions and one day mom had to bring in a few extra bucks and hers out weighed and towered over his by a lot. And he has some good sizes boys. Well anyways he came up to after the auction and they got to talking and he asked what kind of steroids she was feeding these bucks. She said none good hay, little grain to keep them friendly, baking soda and high coppered minerals. He didn't believe her one bit. He said he never heard of that. Now this is a man who has been in goats for at leasr 16 years if not more. To this day he thinks our goats are on something. Even more so now that he heard Booboo is 70 lbs at a little over 4 months.

I agree with Cliff & Alice but also over the years & years of all the humans, livestock, farmers crops, etc. taking stuff out of the land most places are copper & selenium deficient so that is also another reason goats need added copper & minerals.

Just like people who take vitamins, if they ate properly & the right kinds of food they wouldn't need all the supplemental vitamins.

I do believe that the goats in the fields you see have some sort of minerals available to them in a lean too or somewhere they can get to them & if not then they are probably not as healthy as they look from the road. Plus I wonder how many of those animals in those fields just drop dead & the owners wonder why?

Im the last to ask, Im rather new to goats as well. But im pretty sure most goats your talking about that do well in those conditions are meat goats. No one is pulling a quart or four of nutritious milk out of them daily.

The hardiness has been bred out of them by well meaning readers of internet boards. Good thing the goats don't read, because a vast majority of goats are owned by people who never read internet boards, and amazingly enough, their goats do just fine.

"goats doing just fine" is a relative term. I've seen lots of animals people say "are doing just fine" that are anything but. My daughter is a pre-vet student who does job shadowing, the amount of animals people kill for lack of knowledge is truly astounding. As your knowledge level goes up, so does your production and the life expectancy of your herd.

As to the fact that hardiness is bred out of them, there is some truth to that, I'm not sure hardiness is the right word. We have pushed our animals hard to produce more then anything nature would have allowed and as a result our dairy goats are nothing like the "wild goats" of their ancestors any more then the dog at your feet is a wolf.

That's a pretty insulting statement being that we readers of internet boards run the gamut of attitudes from trying to provide as natural environment as possible (actually bothering to find out what a "natural environment" for goats would be) and trying to breed some worm resistance into them - to giving them air conditioning and worrying if little Sweetie stubs a toe.

Education and providing what animals need is never bad.

And most goats just thrown in a field and taken care of by someone who hasn't bothered to educate themselves about the animal really do not "do just fine." Usually they're mineral deficient and riddled with parasites. Although, I guess that does make the ones that actually survive those conditions "hardier." Over time they will adapt but only with a lot of losses.

goats don't really need all that stuff but some owners feel better if they provide it.
good feed and a decent mineral will take care of most things same as any animal.

Those of us who have high volume producing dairy goats are working to keep them healthy, productive, and long lived. We read, discuss, tweak our feed/supplement programs, and watch the results very closely. If you don't want to do that with yours (just a few of those above), go right ahead. But claiming that brush goats who never receive minerals/dewomer/supplemental feed are equal to or as healthy as our dairy does is just not an informed comment. It is the same as comparing a "couch potato" to an Olympic athlete.

Yes, I've changed some feeding/supplement programs over the years as I learned that some suggestions made on the Internet didn't work for my goats, but I know my goats are producing high quality milk for my family while maintaining body weight, being relatively free from parasites, and having a high level of health.

Do they *need* the extras? They might *survive* without them, but simple survival isn't my goal as the person responsible for their care.

Mine get baking soda and ammonium chloride (males) as a preventative. So they don't need it...it's just my choice to give.
My horses get OneAC as a preventative...
My dogs get Frontline and heartguard as a preventative
I take Citrical as a preventative
:)

Not everyone thinks they do need it.

People can "think" whatever they want. Doesn't make them right. Physiologically goats have high mineral needs.

Just like humans are fat and sick and dying by the millions from heart disease because we don't give our bodies what they really need and flood them with what is harmful, goats that don't get what they need at a cellular level won't be as healthy as they could if they had their needs met. Seems pretty black and white to me.

I honestly believe that alot, if not most, of the ideas of goat raising you read about on the web come from one website of a lady who doesn't even have goats. But, she sells "herbal remedies" and has a really neat website about goats. So her site sparked other sites similar to hers which blossomed into yet further sites, etc. Most of the stuff you read on internet sites, forums, and blogs now do not agree with vet sites or scientific studies at all. But it has just become a huge mass of information being posted as though it is scientific fact with out having the backing of the scientific community. And most of it started with just one woman, who doesn't even have goats, who posted a lot of information that people took as fact and mushroomed.
I had one goat die over the different periods of time that I raised goats. One. She bloated after breaking into the feed shed. I never BoSe anything. I never pushed copper into anything other than what was in the feed. I never Molly herbed anything........ ever. I feed them cookies for treats, grain just for treats, apples, fresh fruit, etc. In all that time, one died. I think if you just feed them well, worm them regularly they do fine. I did vaccinate them when they came onto the property or at 3/6weeks, but other than that nothing but good food and water. Yet they lived. It's a good thing goats don't read the internet.

To whom do you refer? Fiasco Farm? She had goats for years, got divorced, and her life moved on. This does not invalidate her experience. I don't agree with *everything* on her website, but it sure is a good place for newbies to start so we don't have to retype advice every day here. :)

The recommendations for copper are NOT from her website. We give our goats copper because they had the symptoms of deficiency, and we've seen the improvement.
http://www.saanendoah.com/copper1.html

I often refer folks to dairygoatinfo.com I don't agree with everything there, either, but there are MANY articles from recognized authorities about goat care in goatkeeping101 and lots of research.

Just as each of us raise a families doing what works for us so, I think, we do that with goats. I have had goats on and off for many years. I have been astounded at what I read on the internet as to what goats "need". In 35 years I have had one goat die. My neighbor came down to help me figure out why she was lethargic and offered to give her a shot of penicillin. She died. I have had three or four DOA in those 35 years as well.
I am getting more milk than I need from my three ND milkers (up to 6 quarts a day) and I have a healthy herd.
When my two kids exhibited signs of Cocci last year I treated it and they quickly recovered.
I feel that the most important part of goat keeping to to acquire the best stock you can afford and pay attention. Use your common sense. Get to know your animals and their quirks and deal with problems in a timely way.

very well said. I am finding more and more, just watching my herd is a great start. (horses too) I find all sorts of things about them. just the other day I had to change watering vessels, without watching my does would still be not drinking enough. let that go on for a long time in this heat and I'd really be baffled on why they are sickly.

and I hear allll the time how goats just drop dead without warning. not really. just no one was looking. or knew what they were looking at/for. those goats out on pasture without anyone paying attention are the ones who usually drop dead 'out of the blue'.

without internet, I'd of given up on goats a few years ago, had 3 die. now I have better info and my goats are doing so well I'm about to go to once a day milking as we're about drowned here! with only 2 does!

and I don't give mine much 'stuff'. minerals, baking soda free choice. hay, a bit of pellets and FRESH water. that's not much. their yearly shot and wormed, heck I take more than that and I am anti-taking-something! I take a vitamin, I have fresh water, take a tums now and then, and happily seem fairly worm free. had all my shots as a kid.

Sometimes I think we go over the top, too. That we MUST adhere to what other 'big name' breeders do or we're doing it WRONG. I'm against that mentality. I don't think spending a bunch of money on them is a great idea, unless needed. I don't free feed alfalfa pellets, I don't use BOSS because they're expensive. I used medicated feed and didn't do cocci prevention with my dam raised kids this year, as examples.

Personally, most is cheap insurance. For dairies, I believe a rumen buffer is neccessary if you're going to grain feed - and to get good milk production, you probably want to grain feed as energy intake will restrict production before any other nutrient. In dairy cow farms, they recieve some sort of rumen buffer in their Total mixed ration (TMR). Sodium Bicarb is very common. It's less necessary with meat animals recieving less grain, but I buy it at 50lb bags from the mill, very cheap. Why not? Plus my dairies run with the boers, and I do feed grain to the growing kids - so they benefit from having it out there. I've seen all stages of goats - pets, boers, dairies, kids - all munch down on the bicarb. I bought one partial bag several years ago and am still working on it. Think I paid 7.00 for it.

As a calcium source I'm using calcium carbonate instead of alfalfa. Can't find alfalfa hay right now, and pellets are rediculously expensive and my dairy goats don't really like them, no matter the brand. I paid less than 5.00 for a 50lb bag, and it'll probably last me well over a year.

Ammonium Chloride is also very cheap insurance. Mainly for wethers fed grain to get 'em to grow for market/show, or for bucks who are a valueable investment worth protecting even if they aren't fed grain. I paid something like 13.00 for a partial 50lb bag several years ago, and it's going to last me several more years it looks. Goats are simply prone to deadly, untreatable bladder stones simply due to their anatomy. In most sheep/goat grower feeds, ammonium chloride is already mixed in. I just find it's cheaper to buy it separate from commercially bagged (pricy!) feeds and use it separately.

With BoSe and copper, most naysayers are looking for goats to keel over and die before they admit deficiency. Fact is, most goats are maintained at a 'mild' deficiency of both of these. So they don't die, but they don't flourish either. I see visual signs of copper deficiency - probably because I can only get an average quality mineral here plus we have high iron in our well water (binds copper) - so I bolus. Goats need higher copper at every age class than do cows, and breeding cows are suggested to be bolused if they show symptoms, too. :) If I could get a better mineral, was in a less deficient area, and/or lower iron in the water, I probably wouldn't bolus. As for BoSe, I've used that for probably 6 years now in my breeding herd - before I'd have slow moving afterbirths that I'd regularly have to tie up and wait for them to drop - now they drop almost instantly. Kids seem much more vigorous too. The last straw was a retained afterbirth, and I started BoSe that year. Haven't had a problem since. MI is pretty well known to be Se deficient. As a reference, I use the National Academies Press Small Ruminant Nutrition book. It's mostly available online, as well, if you're interested in looking up goats requirements for Cu and Se, as well as their interactions. :) Lots of good info on what mineral forms are best, etc.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it I suppose. I'm pleased with my herd health, and that's whats important.

For me I have seen in my herd and others the difference between no mineral and coppering and minerak and copper. My goats are healthy strong and beautiful so since it works for us i will keep doing it.

They don't need much. Keep it simple. A good loose mineral(has salt in it) will have enough copper for most meat and brush goats. Meat/brush goats don't need much/any grain, so they don't need baking soda(rumen buffer).

Dairy goats have much more demand on their bodies for a much longer time. In most areas they will be more productive and healthier with extra copper and selenium supplementation on top of good free-choice minerals. Will they survive without it?? Probably. But in the long run, they will likely make you more money(being more productive), if they get what they need to live optimum lives. Seems like a smart choice.
If you feed much grains to your dairy goats, its not a bad idea to keep baking soda available to them. Better than treating entero or acidosis.
I don't feed much grain to my dairy does(What I do feed is not a bagged grain, but simple whole oats and a bit of BOSS), and I do not keep baking soda out for them. My choice. Goats food pyramid:

Grain
Loose Minerals
Brush/Hay-Fresh Water

We have done a pretty poor job keeping our planet. As a result, most of our crops/grains/hays are lacking in minerals. In most areas, livestock will benefit with extra mineral supplementation. They will live longer, produce more kids/meat/milk if kept properly.

You can go all out and give them *everything imaginable*(not reccomended by me).

You can give them what they need to perform optimumly, but still let them be goats and live as naturally as possible(I reccomend that).

Or you can give them nothing but a field and let them do as "nature intended". Problem with that is that nature is not as nature intended and is lacking vital components in most areas. "Naturally" the land would provide all the minerals needed and goats would not be fenced in so that they could roam to find what they need. In a perfect world, that would work. I don't know anyone who has a perfect world to work in.

Yes, many people go WAY overboard. Many people don't go nearly far enough. Usually both sides think that their way is best and it "works just fine".;)
I *try* to find the middle ground.....not sure I always succeed.:)

I manage for minimal worming, feed whole grains to working dairy goats, give proper mineral supplementation for my area, cull for unthrifty animals. Its my goal to breed a healthy, productive goat who knows how to "be a goat".

Everyone has different goals. Decide what yours are and stick to them.

If you live in Florida, meat goats may do just fine without a shelter. Here in Missouri where we get snow, sleet, ice, etc. We use a shelter.:)

Mine are thriving on...well, nothing. My horses are also thriving on nothing. I have my meds on hand, B5 vitamins etc, but I don't grain, give copper or anything. Having a sheep out there ties my hands on a lot of things; what is good for goaties may very well kill Sammy Sheep. So I took a step back and a deep breath.

They are 24/7 pasture kept, with hay thrown all winter or when the grass dies out. Fresh water and shelter. No grain. That's it.

It should be noted, however, that my guys are pets, pure and simple, so not in need of anything overly special.

People ask me all the time, "Isn't it expensive to keep goats and horses?" My response is that 9 months out of the year, God takes care of 'em. Again, mine are strictly pets and not in need of show care, milking care, etc. But I could go out there and throw any of 'em on the grill and eat for days, lol.

I need copper, minerals, salt, etc too. I get mostly from the variety of foods I eat, along with the salt shaker.
If goats were allowed to roam freely, they would eat a bit of this, some of that, go over and check out something else. Because we restrict them from doing this, we should do out best to give whem what they can't get for themselves. The goatherd who follows his flock around is long gone.
Also I agree that we have bred some of the toughness out of them in order to get other things- like fast meat gain or lots of milk. But that is the choice.
I imagine that "backwoods goats" can be hardier-as a horse trainer told me when I mentioned the agreeable nature of a certain breed of horse- "If they didn't do good, we ate them." I imagine that is true for goats too- those animals are being selected for something else- ablility to survive without attention for the few who survive.

I only wanted to add that I think this is probably apples and oranges. Our very first goats were strictly pets. We bought a just freshened doe with 2 kids on her. We gave them literally nothing but water. We threw them some hay on the ground in the field once a day or so during the winter. Beyond water and that little bit of hay, it was zero done. Now that I look back I think one had pneumonia once and I just didn't know what it was and didn't do anything. I don't even think we had the number to a veterinarian. We didn't kill them, they all lived. This is only 3 goats though so our sampling was small and they had no needs at all, they didn't do anything but decorate the pasture. You have 100-300 animals, you start getting a better sampling of whether what you are doing is working or not.

We now have a show herd of Dairy goats. If you just have a few pasture ornaments who have no real needs then you really don't have to do much. A loose mineral is very helpful, water, and something that represents decent hay (baking soda really doesn't need to be given if you aren't upsetting their rumens in the first place with grain). If you have an animal worth $500-$1,000 who is pregnant with kids, then yes, your regiment is going to be a little different. That animal is also probably on milk tests, getting LA, going to shows, and has probably been bred to be on the higher maintenance side.

The more you ask out of your animals the higher your maintenance is going to be. I don't think this is really a matter of right or wrong.

Wow! Ask a simple question lol.

I got to wondering about my question when I put our two small goats that were NOT lactating or preggers into a 100ft by 600ft pasture with fresh rain crisp summer grass and bamboo and oak and pine and wild grapes and cat briars and goodness knows what else all looking like a green oasis in a land of barren goat eaten pastures and do you know what those goats did?

THEY LOST WEIGHT!!!

So with all that wonderful food growing daily with the summer thunderstorms watering it I have to feed them AND give them hay.

And that got me wondering how all the goats I see look so fat and happy.

Guess my going with Nigerian dwarf dairy was good for the milk side of it by not so good from the thrifty side.

I guess the goats I see on TV in desserts that give their owners all the milk they need are bred for thriftiness, hardiness and productivity eh? Not like my pampered two-some :grit:

Thank you all so much for your replies, I love hearing different ways to do things. :)

Deliberate thread drift link:

Italian breeds of goats

The above link has some of the MOST amazing goats.

Boy was that question a can of worms yeeupp!
I feel that I keep it simple here. I have 2 different breeds of dairy goats mini saanen and nubians, the mini's do really well on just air whereas my nubians need a little more loving care or they end up looking like Ethiopians and believe me it takes more money to get them BACK to condition then to KEEP them in condition.
I have some new friends here that have a large herd of Kiko's that are pastured with hay, now from a distance they look just fine, but as my new friend commented their goats aren't as friendly as mine, she got a kick outta Pawnee and Pebbles coming right up for petting.
Since I have a small herd any loss is not acceptable so I keep a very close eye on body conditions. But will make this clear that I do NOT spoil my goats, well except for the fan in the barn...

Well I can't keep mine the way nature intended because we live on 1/3 of an acre. Our goats are dry lotted. They get free choice grass hay, we put out a large scoop of alfalfa pellets twice a day (there is always some still in the feeders when we put out the next scoop), and they get a mix of oats, BOSS and beet pulp on the milk stand. We also keep loose mineral and fresh water out at all times.

The two bucks are youngsters this year. They get free choice grass hay, a feed through cocci preventive, and a small amount of alfalfa pellets. They are growing big, glossy and beautiful.

We also copper and Bo-Se four times a year. We started with twice a year, it wasn't enough. With some experimenting over the years, we have found that for our area, we need to do it about every three months.

The only goat we have ever had die got goat polio. We learned from that. We learned about copper, Bo-Se feeding and such early in our goat keeping.

Our first goat got none of it. We didn't know about worming, or feed or anything. She got a scoop of horse sweet feed a couple of times a day. Did she live, yes. But compared to the girls I have now, she was a very skinny, scruffy goat with little milk to give.

Our FF this year is producing just shy of a gallon a day, she is in great condition with a glossy coat.

Oh and for comparison.

This is Lacey when we got her. She was a long yearling in this pic. She was kept natural before we got her. All the browse she could want, but no grain, no alfalfa, no minerals, no copper bolus, very very little worming.

The day she arrived
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...100_3503-1.jpg

Two weeks after her arrival and slowly being introduced to our management
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...100_3518-1.jpg

After three months under our management
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...100_5730-1.jpg

So people can tell me goats don't need it. They can tell me I pamper my goats or whatever. I'm still going to stick with my management. I've seen the results on more than one goat that has come here.

OBF, You've done a great job with Lacey! In the 1st picture she looks like a starved Ethiopian goat & the last picture she is absolutely beautiful!

I too try to keep it simple for our goats but I like to make sure they have what they need & I do beileive they need minerals, vaccinations & wormings. I do Not give any of my goats a lot of grain but enough that they Love to come to us, be petted, etc. When not milking & no kids nursing they only get 1/4 cup grain a.m. & again in the p.m. I have been milking more this year than ever before & am giving all they want alfalfa on the milkstand.

I am trying the calcium carbonate like some others here just a tiny bit top dressed on their feed instead of alfalfa pellets since the cost was getting too high.

OatBucket...pictures speak louder than words! Excellent example! Lacy is a goat that looks like something to "strive for". You should be very proud and I'm sure Lacy is lovin life!! :) :) She looks great! :)

Lacey is gorgeous!!!

I hope you all know me well enough to know I didn't mean any "judgement" on those who do more for their goats than I do, just that I am lucky to be able to somehow keep them without so much, though if I needed it all, I surely would do it in a heartbeat for them!

You definitely feed your goats well and care for them. She was just too skinny when you got her, and needed to be wormed.

Sadly, Lacey turned out to be CAE positive. We loved her so much, we would have managed it if she had stayed non-symptomatic. But by the end of her first pregnancy, her knees were huge and she was having trouble. We were there and pulled her daughter before the doeling even touched the stall floor. A few days later, we said goodbye to our beloved Lacey.

Lacey stands for so many things to me. She stands for the need to provide proper care so that they do more than just survive (which is what she was doing before she came here), she stands for the need to test for CAE and handle it accordingly, and most of all, she stands for the beauty and love that are goats.

Goats that need minerals can have that sort of coat too, it's not just lack of feed or having worms that can cause that look.

Someone should post pics of the difference minerals make in appearance.

I'm don't vaccinate. Don't feed baking soda because I don't feed anything that would cause them to need it. Only worm when absolutely necessary. Don't do any of the other things that have been mentioned except give them access to a good mineral. They need minerals. You can't make something out of nothing.

Wow, I think the question is too broad. Milk goats and meat goats are worlds apart in some ways. Dry lot goats and those on pasture are also worlds apart.

We started out milking four dairy goats. Then we started breeding them to a Boer meat buck. Our kids don't get vaccinations, nor do the rest of the herd. We spot worm. Meaning when someone is exhibiting wormy symptoms..they get wormed, not the whole herd. I've talked before about a line of Nubians that were troublesome on the worm issue.

I guess I'm a lot like beccachow in raising our goats. We give them hay, pasture graze, LOOSE minerals and plenty of water. When a doe has kids, she gets grained twice a day. If we milk a doe, she gets grain. Those are the only goats that get grain, usually. I just told hubby that I am going to pull one of the OLD does that is pregnant in, away from the herd. Why? I think she is too thin, and she is going to kid. She's going in with Louise, 14, who is NOT pregnant, but is very thin due to just being old and worn out. These two I CHOOSE to do something extra for. They need it.

How you raise goats today is unique to each owner's situation and what the goats are being used for. I will say that I think the more you do to them, the more their immune systems will depend on you doing that for them always. If the poo-poo hits the fan, everyone may have to reaccess how they are raising goats, what they are raising goats for and whether or not that can be sustained without vets/meds and so on.

The "dairy" goats one sees on tv in the old westerns, well, they are not high producers. Those goats, like many homesteaders have, were meant to put milk on the table. Not set milking records. How much milk does a family use in a day? Many of those goats were/are not getting grained every whip-stitch, they just don't give as much milk. You might have to have 2 goats instead of 1 to provide your needs.

This is all moot if you are raising production milk does. If the truck is pulling in, you want it to leave with as much of your does milk as possible. I only know one outfit around here that actually has milk does for their families income. Just like a cow operation.

Like I say..I can see how come people can become disagreeable on this subject. It isn't a narrowed enough question. It cannot be answered correctly if breed, job description and place to be raised isn't included. I can tell someone how WE raise goats in our location, acres, for meat. Others can tell you how to raise dry lot goats or high production milkers. It's like someone said earlier...apples to oranges.

Our goats are on pasture 24/7. They have shelter and water from a pond, year round. During the winter, I chop ice on the pond twice a day.

I have mostly meat goats. I have 5 Alpines that I milk when fresh, but their lactions are rotated so that I'm not always milking all 5.

The Alpines get a little bit of Purina Goat Chow when they milk. When they are dry, they get no grain.

The weanling kids get 28 days of Noble Goat Grower.

The rest, including the bucks get no feed.

I keep free choice loose cattle mineral out for the goats as well as a salt block.

In the winter, or near kidding time, when protein needs rise, I put out a high quality protein tub. I don't buy the cheap ones because they are hardened with chemicals whereas the expensive tubs are hardened by cooking off the moisture and they last longer than the cheap ones.

I vaccinate once a year. I DO NOT worm. Last thing I want is to add a problem. BUT, I DO deworm.

There is a difference between the words "wormer" and "dewormer". There is no such thing as wormers or worming.

The only time I deworm is when there is a problem and then I only deworm the infected animals. Yes, you can do your own fecals with your own microscope. It's easy to do.

This year, I had to deworm because of mites, not because of worms.

If your goats are on pasture year round, it will eliminate a lot of need for dewormers. Also, if they are in a lot of cedars or sericea lespideza, they will have less need for dewormers.

You can check my goats anytime. They have nice shiny coats and they all have a good body score.

I agree with what was said about the one website that has led to so much myth and misinformation about goats and goat care. It proves that a lot of what you read on the internet is nothing but one person believing anything another says.

Contrary to belief, goats do NOT need more copper than cows. Speaking in nutritional percentages, they need less copper than cows. Any good goat or cattle mineral will provide the additional copper and selenium that a goat needs. Too much copper is worse for a goat than too little copper. Too much copper can cause serious health problems for the goat. Even a goat that is in a dry lot year round will be healthy given a free choice mineral, possibly a protein supplement, salt, and hay.

Well let's look at the research, shall we?

Nutrient Requirements of Dairy Cattle: Seventh Revised Edition, 2001
Nutrient Requirements of Dairy Cattle: Seventh Revised Edition, 2001

This one shows lactating cows requiring between 9-11mg Cu/kg DM intake, or 12-16mg Cu/kg DM intake for newly fresh cows.

Nutrient Requirements of Dairy Cattle: Seventh Revised Edition, 2001

According to this chart, a bred holstein needs between 12-18mg Cu /kg DM intake per day.

Nutrient Requirements of Dairy Cattle: Seventh Revised Edition, 2001

Growing heifers needs between 9-10mg/kg DM intake.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Nutrient Requirements of Beef Cattle: Seventh Revised Edition: Update 2000

For beef cows, 10mg/kg DM intake is suggested.

According to my copy of NAP Sm. Ruminants, goats require at least 15mg Cu/kg DM for lacating does, 20mg Cu/kg DM for mature does and bucks, and 25mg Cu/kg DM for growing kids. Similar to or higher than the requirements for lacating dairy cows, and MUCH higher than the requirements for beef cows. The reason the higher requirements for bucks/kids is because usually they eat less dry matter per day than lactating does, so the rate they take in Cu must be higher. I realize that they still don't have the NAP Sm. Ruminants book available online. I have the hard copy right next to me. :)

Keep in mind that for the longest time, Sheep were used to determine the Cu requirement for goats. Sheep are known to be very sensitive to copper.

Max tolerable level for sheep is 15mg/kg DM intake, with normal Mb intake.

There is no toxicity level for goats - they have tolerated 60mg/kgDM for 137 days with no signs of copper toxicity in studies. Cautiously, NAP comittee suggests max intake for goats to be the same as cows, 40mg/kg DM, but actual toxic level is likely higher.

I think that it really depends how much "stuff" you need to use.

I for one have never given any of my goats any copper and they are fine.

I do think mine need Bo Se, because when I didn't use it I had to pull more kids and also had to fool around with them more because they weren't getting to their feet and nursing quickly.

However when I had my own feed mixed I added more selenium and didn't have to use BoSe.

In the book "The Herbal Handbook for Farm and Stable" the author says that sometimes it may take several generations before her more natural rearing method gives full health.

I take that in part to mean that the weak ones die off:)


There are 2 things to watch for in goats I think:

1) is the person who has a really sick goat, pulls it thru and then bonds with the goat because they pulled it thru and then it's possible that that goat was constitutionally inadequate and then the whole herd is weaker. If you can get kids from an old doe in a dairy or large herd where it is impossible for the owner to give any one animal excessive care those kids usually have a better chance of being "easy keepers"

2) is the show herd where you get a great show doe, but she is not an easy keeper but because she is a show winner her blood is widespread in the herd even though those animals may need special minerals or babying in order to prosper.

Another thing to think about is any doe who is giving a large amount of milk is going to need more nutrition, whether minerals or just thru the feed compared to a low milker.


I always say most goats need 4 things.
Enough clean water
Grain
Good hay
A dry place to lay down.

If you provide those and have good goats chances are you may not need to get anything else depending on what you start with.

However as a breeder you do want to keep track of any problems or special care your goats have got, and then their offspring to track any genetic weaknesses.

I remember a breeder telling me about using these really nice minerals one time and then the company went out of business. They had a bunch of problems with the goats because they had actually been bred to prosper using only those minerals.

If you want easy keepers that don't require a lot of special care of supplemenation then you need to exercise care in the herds you buy from and then also keep overall health as part of the selection criteria in your own breeding program.