Another CL disease question??

I wish you were closer, so I could show you. It is SO easy. I just drew blood for a friend of mine.

Here's a webpage with a nine year old drawing blood. Having a calm holder for the goat's head is essential.

BoerGoats.com Article drawingblood

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Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

I wish you were closer to Alice. I'd feel better if you showed me. That was a cool link too, I guess if a 9 year old can do so can I. I'm glad you put the link up because I thought you drew it out of a front leg like the vet does to the dogs! Never would have thought it was on the throat for a goat.

Back down to the barn now since I think my FF is going to kid tonight!

I seriously question the statement that everyone who has goats will have CL. Bull cookies.

If more folk were more conscientious about it, we could get the numbers down to 8% like in Great Britain.

Nope, don't vaccinate the goat with a sheep vaccine. Live virus? No. That's just looking for trouble. The only trouble I want in my herd is the lovely Many Troubles.

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Je ne suis pas Alice

http://homesteadingfamilies.proboards.com/

woo-Hoo! Happy Kidding! remember PICS!

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Teach only Love...for that is what You are

She's just toying with me, I know it! No long string of goo yet but she keeps laying down then she gets up to eat hay!
I'll just keep running back & forth, of course I'm keeping everyone up at the barn.
I gotta get one of those barn cams!

Keep us posted! I am going to bed though...ruff day. But I do check in through out the night. I'm excited for you!

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Teach only Love...for that is what You are

Live virus or unmodified killed virus ups the probability of an animal catching the disease from the vaccine. That is why so many vaccines have had to be changed. Almost all the older animal (and human) vaccines are not the original.

I have used the vaccine when I had one of my original goats developed CL. The ones who are negative did not develop a low titer- they are clean negative and have been each year.
However, the daughter of the one who had CL got the vaccine- her titer came back as below the testing sensativity as negative but not zero negative. I (and my vet) assumed that this was due to the vaccine. Later that doe developed CL.
To me the risk of masking a case outweighs the protective value of the vaccine- so I don't use it. Luckily I have not had another case show up.
There is a vaccine made in Australia that is more effective than the ones we can buy here but since the manufacturer doesn't want to pay for the kind of testing that our country's rules for acceptance want, we can't get it here. At least that was true about 5-6 years ago when I last checked.

I have both vaccinated and unvaccinated in my herd.

TAMU has been using the Cas-Bac vaccine for many, many years at their International Dairy Goat Research Center in Prairie View. They also have not had a single abscess in their herds for a decade.

However, I do NOT recommend using it, for a few reasons:

1. One of the does I bought from TAMU developed an abscess. I freaked out. Of course, both does I got from them were still in quarantine. The abscess turned out to be Pasturella, according to culture, but still, I freaked. If I could have sent in a blood test, it would have come back MUCH sooner than the culture!

2. The new ELISA blood tests for CL are remarkably accurate. When people talk about the "accuracy" of blood tests for CL, they are talking about the old AGID tests, not the new ELISA tests. Several University labs, including WADDLs, use the ELISA with very high accuracy.

However, since the Cas-Bac vaccine is off-label for goats, there are no studies available for the true efficiency of it released yet. I know TAMU is doing long-term studies on it (hence why the does I bought from them were vaccinated), but we don't KNOW yet. No conclusions have been released. And since vaccination makes testing a thing of the past, the only way to determine infection is IF an external abscess turns up, or IF a goat dies and you can get a necropy to check for internals. I'd really rather have the ability to test.

3. The side effects. When I discussed them with Scott Horner, the Research Specialist at IDGRC, he told me flat out that MOST of the goats experienced side effects when vaccinated. (They vaccinate yearly) He also mentioned that side effects get WORSE over the years with multiple vaccinations, not less.

Now, why on earth did I even BUY a goat from the IDGRC that I knew could not be tested for CL?

Well, the last abscess they found anywhere in their herd that cultured positive for CL (and they culture ALL abscesses, having a University lab right handy) was in 1997. They test religiously for CAE, Johne's, Brucella, and TB.

And both of these does have at least two ancestors in the Top 10 Alpines Nationally within the last 4 generations.

Yes, I have been real pleased with both of them.

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Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

When you test for CL through WADDL, it lists an SHI test. I don't see an ELISA on their fee schedule. I've always done the SHI test, and it still warns of false positives/negatives.

This is the first I've heard of side effects, good to know. I've heard of many boer herds using the CL vaccine with good results.

Wasn't there a CL vaccine approved for goats that they were supposed to come out with? Or did that get put on the backburner because of issues with vaccinating?

Another alternative is making a custom vaccine if your herd ever becomes infected. By making a culture and the nsending off the specific strain that you have on the farm, vaccine companies can make you a cusom vaccine.


Also from what I see, the CL vaccine is not a live vaccine? It lists both Case CDT and Case-bac as a toxoid. Which from my understanding, this is NOT live?

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Dona Barski

"Breed the best, eat the rest"

Caprice Acres

French and American Alpines. CAE, Johnes neg herd. Abscess free. LA, DHIR.

if you are going with Mini-Nubians... you really should consider G6S testing... (my entire herd is tested..yes it was expensive but well worth it.. with you just starting out .. it would be MUCH cheaper to start with ONLY G6S NORMAL stock...)
my friend Karen wrote an excellent article explaining G6S in Nubians

G6S Article - Calm & Gentle Dairy Goat Farm

susie, mo ozarks

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"My darling girl, when are you going to understand that "normal" is not necessarily a virtue? It rather denotes a lack of courage."
http://www.agesagoacresnubians.com/

I used WADDL for CL blood test last year when a new doe developed an abscess. This was right after the herd I bought my buck from was found to have CL so I was already freaked out. WADDL sent me back a titer number of 64 and recommended re-test in four weeks. The re-test was free, just shipping and their whatever-it-is fee. The re-test was also titer of 64. WADDL's report on the re-test said something like, no change in titer, consider goat negative. My research said that was the titer usually found in a goat that had been vaccinated for the disease. So you do have options of a blood test if you suspect CL, but you must have the facilities to quarantine the effected goat/s for at least 5 weeks. It was nerve-wracking to put it mildly.

IIRC the test, fee, and shipping came to about $48 (I got their Fed-Ex account number by calling so shipping was lots cheaper) the first time, and about $28 the second time since the re-test was free. Had this not been a doe in milk, I would have culled rather than spend the money to test her. As it was I spent more on testing her (pre-purchase CAE, post-purchase CL x 2) than the purchase price of the goat! Peace of mind is priceless though. And she's proven well worth the investment, as the doeling she had for me this year is far and away the best of the home-grown kid crop.

-Sonja

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Wingnut Farms
Nubian Dairy Goats
New Market, Alabama

Thanks for the Link Yarrow, I'll read it & talk to the breeders I've contacted already to see if they have tested for it. I'm sure once I read your link it will answer a lot questions.

I would not be surprised if you hear "oh, that's not a problem in the mini-nubians" well.. those mini-s came from full sized nubians.. so yeah. .there is just as much of a chance at carriers with the mini-s... there are TONS of Nubian breeders who don't test (they've convinced themselves -and their buyers- that it's not a big deal.. and it isn't the END of the WORLD... BUT.. just starting out.. buy from tested stock and it will NEVER be an issue for you.. and you will have the peace of mind of KNOWING that you are breeding & selling the healthiest babies that you can.. when there is a one time test available for us as breeders.. isn't it the responsible thing to do?

susie, mo ozarks

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"My darling girl, when are you going to understand that "normal" is not necessarily a virtue? It rather denotes a lack of courage."
http://www.agesagoacresnubians.com/

I wish you had the mini Nubians Susie, I'd make the road trip for 1 or 2 of your kids, Your goats are all beautiful.

yeah... we do tend to try for the opposite type of nubian... give me the biggest ... the longest, the tallest, the widest .. LOL... (now I have a song stuck in my head... " I like big does and I cannot lie" LOL)


susie, mo ozarks

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"My darling girl, when are you going to understand that "normal" is not necessarily a virtue? It rather denotes a lack of courage."
http://www.agesagoacresnubians.com/

Just to help it get REALLY stuck in your head, Susie:


I like big goats and I cannot lie
...you crazy ladies can't deny...
That when a doe's top line
rises past your bee-hind
and her udder's so thick and fine
you get sprung!
Having too much fun...
--
Cuz you notice that doe was done
Deep in the chest, like a faring
I'm hooked and I can't stop staring
Oh, I need you in my barn as a fixture
I'll take your picture
And share with all my friends
You're so wide, and tall, and deep
You're the doe I'm gotta keep
Ooh, rump of smooth hair
Your color's got flair
Nubie, Mancha, Alpie, Saanie...you ain't the average Nannie...

I've seen them wheelin'
To hell with hagglin' and dealin'
She's sweet, and set, got it goin like a turbo vette

I'm tired of forum, e-zines
Saying Mini goats are the thing
Take the average Goatie Gal and ask her that, she'll say...
Doe's gotta pack much back

So Ladies (yeah) Ladies (yeah)
Are your goats stacked to the rack? (hell yeah)
Well, dance it, prance it, and be thankful for the fact
Your does have got back...

(U.K. head with a Texas udder...)

I like'em round and big
And when I'm throwin a dig
I just can't help myself
I'm actin like an animal
Now here's my scandal

I wanna get her home
And send to my buck alone...
I aint talkin bout souses
Just that miniature things are made for doll houses...
I wannem real big and think
So find that breed that clicks
Crazy Goat Gals are in trouble
Buy a kid out of Miss Bubbles
So I'm lookin' at websites
Knockin these goats with legs like sprites
You can have them goats
I'll keep my does like Flo Jo
A word to the big goat breeders
I wanna pay and feed ya
I won't slam or demean ya
But I gotta be straight when I say I wanna BUY
All your does and bucks
Your lines got me awe-struck
Alot of breeders won't like this song
Cuz them jerks breed to sell it, repel it
But I'd rather be responsible
Cuz I'm smart and conscionable
And I'm down to get the milkin' on

So doelings (yeah), doelings (yeah)
Do you wanna race my buck a furlong? (yeah)
Then turn around
Stick it out
Even N.D.'s got to shout
Baby got back

(U.K. head with a Texas Udder)

Yeah Goat Gals
When it comes to does
Fashion ain't got nothin to do with my selection
26 inch maximum height?
Only if she's laying down....

So your goats are tiny and little
And fit as a fiddle
But a fiddle don't milk a bit, not even a dribble
My milkin' hands don't want none unless you've got teats hun
You can breed for short muzzles and ears
But please don't lose that size-up
Some breeders wanna play that hard role
And tell you that standards ain't gold
So they toss 'em and leave 'em
And I call up quick to retrieve 'em
So the forums says their fat
Well I ain't down with that
Cuz they're "well conditioned", and there ain't no guiltin'
And I'm thinkin bout milkin'
To the tiny does takin' off with shows
You aint it, Miss Goat
Give me a standard, I can't resist her
Alfalfa and grain didn't miss her
Some insane woman tried to dis
Cuz her goats were on my list
she had game but she chose to dry 'em
And I called up fast to buy 'em
So does if the rumen is round
And you wanna be pampered from your horn buds on down
Dial 1-800-CRAZYGOATGALS and prepare to be grained by the pound
Your does have got back...
My does have got back.....
Little in the hooves but she got much back...

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Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

LOL it!!!! We are having a big family/friends/food/fire and of course... Karaoke FUN!!!! in June (baby shower of sorts for my daughter/goat partner).. hmmm.. maybe ol' mom will just have to have a couple drinks of liquid courage and do this for everyone!!!! (bet my non-goatie mother-in-law would find me EVEN weirder LOL...
again, thank ye much-ly.. this is so funny

susie, mo ozarks

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"My darling girl, when are you going to understand that "normal" is not necessarily a virtue? It rather denotes a lack of courage."
http://www.agesagoacresnubians.com/

This information is outdated. casebac never worked. at best it had a 30% rate. But now they have one that is supposed to be 90% effective as tests results over the last 3 years seem to say.

There is no such thing as clean herds. Your herd can get it from deer as well as birds as well as horses.

Wrong it is a solution along with many other management techniques. You really need to update yourself on the cl. Read up on it and get familiar with the new research. Dr. Kathleen M Oreilly, from the UK The UK studies are in depth and do look at all possible outcomes AS well as using formalin, excising and even where the most likely places for the abcesses.

Another dr at UC davis and i just cant remember her name yet, also advocates use of formalin. The use of formalin prevents spreading before the abcess opens up. As long as no abcesses pop up and rupture thus spreading it on fences buildings ect, it won't spread. There is a big myth now that your goats spread it from coughing. Not true. It is true that sheep spread it by coughing, but a goats respiratory system is different. Read up on the new research.