Would you balk at buying from a CL positive herd...

goatkid · #41 04/04/12, 11:30 PM

There is no way I would ever buy a goat from a CL positive herd. That is one disease I don't want to mess with. It does stay in the environment. A couple years ago, I sold three beautiful Nubian does to a woman I'd met on the internet. I'd advertised goats for sale on Craigslist and she responded to let me know she had planned to have a goat sale at her place and I could bring my goats there to sell. I chose not to do that, but she later wanted some goats for herself. I sold her the three does. I later was chatting with her on Facebook and asked her how the does were doing. Her response was "Which does? I buy goats all over." When I described them to her, she told me they all had CL and I must have the problem in my herd. I do not have CL in my herd and gave her the name of my vet in case she doubted me. She said she had kept them in her quarantine pen. I then realized it was likely the same pen she kept the sale goats in. The poor goats I sold her picked up CL from her property. One was an outstanding doeling I had not planned to sell, but the woman really wanted her. I will not be selling her any more of my goats. Not only will I not buy goats from a positive herd, I won't sell any to a herd I know has the disease either.

CaliannG · #42 04/06/12, 01:42 AM

Goats are *less likely* than sheep to have internal abscesses, but "less likely" doesn't mean "never happens". Sheep are "less likely" to have external abscesses, but I have seen sheep with great, big ones.

CL spreads through feces due to internal abscesses bursting, and contaminating the digestive tract with the bacteria, thus contaminating the feces. This method of transmission is difficult to prevent, because you can't SEE an internal abscess. Therefore, you cannot know if a goat is diseased and infesting your kids in the next stall over due to kids mouthing EVERYTHING, including goat berries.

I won't buy a diseased goat. I won't buy from a diseased herd. However, I am sure as heck not buying from an auction, either, unless it is VERY special circumstances.

I am not against the CL vaccine. Texas A&M has used it for years on their stock with very good results. However, due to the fact that that it DOES make testing impossible, I forgo it. I'd rather have the yearly, negative test results than be unsure.

chamoisee · #43 04/06/12, 01:57 AM

Ugh! Caliann, you just ruined me for getting goat manure for my garden from anyone! I could get it on my barn boots and then...track it god knows where. Alpacas, cattle and horses don't get CL, do they?? :shudder:

lexa · #44 04/06/12, 04:06 AM

Alpacas do get CL but it is called granulomatous lymphadenitis. I checked when I was reading alpaca FAQ and there was a question about abscess on the face. The author stipulated that it was just harmless thing caused by hay poking. I was curious and googled CL in alpacas it and came up with this Protection in alpacas against Corynebacterium ... [Vet Microbiol. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI

InHisName · #45 04/06/12, 08:24 AM

How would you go about testing for CL? We have never had an abcess here, but all of this puts the fear of it into you....

Alice In TX/MO · #46 04/06/12, 08:30 AM

From what I understand, the tests are not yet completely reliable unless you test the contents of a cyst.

KrisD · #47 04/06/12, 10:04 AM

I am to the point of testing for CL every 6 months just to see what it says. I've never had an abscess and I only have goats from abscess free herds. But at this point it is curiosity. Until we are testing regularly they will never develop an accurate test. JMO

InHisName · #48 04/06/12, 10:49 AM

Kris, how do you go about that here in Wa state?

KrisD · #49 04/06/12, 11:47 AM

Testing? I send blood to WADDL. Depending on where you live ou can drive it right to the lab yourself.

CaliannG · #50 04/06/12, 12:46 PM

Chamoisee, yes, alpacas and other animals can get CL. It is caused by a bacteria that enters the lymph system, where it isn't supposed to be, and creates havoc.

However, Dona is right, CL, in spite of very OLD beliefs to the contrary, does not infect the soil forever and ever, amen. According to current studies (which being in a major University, Dona has lots of access to) it lives in *moist* soil for about two weeks. Dry soil for less. It can infect the wood in stalls and barns and, under the right conditions, persist for up to a month.

What that comes down to, simply, is just get composted manure, or don't let your goats near you garden for a couple of weeks after you spread it. Not that you'd want them in there anyway, considering how goats treat gardens.

Heritagefarm · #51 04/06/12, 12:46 PM

Nope, not a chance, no way, no how.

where I want to · #52 04/06/12, 03:30 PM

With coyne being spread from feces- it is suspected that the horse version of this disease is spread in part from biting insects that hatch in manure then bite an uninfected horse.
With goats, I still think that this is unlikely as goat berries are pretty dry and I have never seen the gnats and flies around goat poop that haunt horse poop.
As I keep saying, my remarks are not an endorsement of CL infected goats.
It hurt really badly to put down two dear goats who were infected but I did it to keep the rest safe. Would I torch my goat sheds and burn my fields? No. Because the best information I had didn't support such extremem action.

**mygoat** · #53 04/06/12, 05:18 PM

I don't think flies are a vector unless they carry it mechanically on their BODIES. It would have to be VERY special circumstances for that to be the case, though, I owuldn't think it happens all the time.

Also of note, there are two 'flavors' of CL bacterium. Horses can ONLY get one 'flavor', while cows can get both, and goats can only get the other. From Merck vet manual online:

Quote:

Two biotypes have been identified based on the ability of the bacteria to reduce nitrate: a nitrate-negative group that infects sheep and goats, and a nitrate-positive group that infects horses. Isolates from cattle are a heterogeneous group.

Important to note that goats can give/get CL from cows, but NOT horses. It's called Pidgeon Fever in horses a lot.

Heres the Mercks' excerpt on the one that horses/cows get.

Merck Veterinary Manual

chamoisee · #54 04/06/12, 08:17 PM

OK, so horse manure is safe for goats to be around, even if the horses have their kind of CL? Geez. I wanted alpacas....people give the male culls away sometimes....now I'm kind of leery. I don't have any livestock at all right now anyway though.... :-P

Pony · #55 04/06/12, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by where I want to

Whoa there- I am passionate about avoiding CL but some remarks have gone way past reality.
I bought two goats to start from two different people. Unknown to me (but I think the seller knew) one was infected with CL.
Luckily for me, I took the goat to the vet to have the first abscess first drained and tested. So I knew not to let any abscess drain anywhere on my place right from the start.
But the infected goat lived with her companion for almost two years before the first abcess showed up. That companion is CL free having been tested yearly and never having had an abscess after 8 years. Other goats are CL free too. So, it is not readily spread without contact with a draining abscess making contact.
Also, it does not spread to people easily either. You'd have to have the pus come into contact with an open sore and then you probably would not pick it up.
Australia had a bad problem with CL in sheep until they developed a vaccine but even with this only a very few people involved in butchering ever developed any problem.
I would never knowingly allow an infected goat at my place because it is an ugly problem for those poor goats who have it. But a little perspective is needed.

I beg to disagree with you.

CL is virulent. It can lay in the soil, on the fences, in the barn, on stands... If you want to play Russian Roulette with your herd, fine. But please don't accuse the rest of us of having skewed perspective when we adamantly state that we would never EVER have a CL positive animal in our herds.

Pony · #56 04/06/12, 08:24 PM

Flies do not spread CL.

Ford Zoo · #57 04/06/12, 11:32 PM

If I'm not mistaken-the vaccine for CL is a live vaccine and if used, is basically introducing the animal to the disease(in a small amount to help build immunity). So it seems to me a vaccinated animal could eventually be contagious. I know a large dairy herd that vaccinates all as she said it is cheaper than testing, but culls at the sign of any disease. If my thoughts are correct on the vaccinating, this could be misleading to a buyer. Am I off here?

thaiblue12 · #58 04/06/12, 11:58 PM

Pigeon Breast Fever in horses while similar to CL is not a death sentence like CL is to goats, unless I guess their owner does not treat them. Goats cannot catch it from horses and vice versa, it is two different forms.
Alpacas get the same kind as goats/sheep but they tend to have the abcesses internally, which makes it harder to tell, not to mention all that wool. Thankfully the two I had came from a clean herd. Cute and fluffy but they are quite boring compared to goats IMO.

Chamoisee if you trucked in goat poop I think it would be safe if it was aged, plus they would have to have the internal abcess burst in their digestive tract to infect their feces.
Better yet get your own diseased free goats and have your own poop again

CL scares me far more the CAE does, while I want neither at my place ever, one can wipe out your entire herd, the other you can pull kids, cull the infected one and keep it from spreading to every goat.

where I want to · #59 04/07/12, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pony

I beg to disagree with you.

CL is virulent. It can lay in the soil, on the fences, in the barn, on stands... If you want to play Russian Roulette with your herd, fine. But please don't accuse the rest of us of having skewed perspective when we adamantly state that we would never EVER have a CL positive animal in our herds.

Once more- please note that I said I put two goats down for this condition. I do not want a positive CL goat at my place either.

But there are some seriously over the top remarks going on. One that a girl could have developed CL herself by petting a goat.

I UNKOWNINGLY had a positive goat living at my place for 18 months and no other goat developed CL other than her daughter. That daughter was taken by me as she was born and never had contact with her mother even to the point of the mother sniffing her after birth. She was also put down when she developed abscesses hence my remark about there being no CL prevention. But she also lived with my herd for about a year. And again no other goat developed CL.

I NEVER EVER said or implied that not wanting any positive CL goat on a person's property is having a skewed prespective. But from my personal experience, having a positive goat does not condemn the property to disease forever and ever.

That Russian Roulette remark is personal and going too far. Sooner or later the chances are, unless you have a closed herd or you are lucky, you will have this problem and you should have the best information in order to deal with it. A CL goat can look perfectly fine and have a negative test- she can be too young at purchase to be tested at all. People you think you can trust may let you down.

Ford Zoo · #60 04/07/12, 01:08 PM

I find we all have our own thoughts on every subject. Knowledge is a great thing, but can also divide us. For those of you fortunate enough to have well managed and documented herds nearby to purchase from-I'm jealous. For those, like me, that have to evaluate every little nook and cranny before buying a goat from someone that doesn't have the answers we are looking for, welcome to my club. We all want the best for our animals, if we are lucky enough to even find them closeby.

I have been proud to say for 5 years that I have had an abcess free herd. But now I am brining new goats on the property, and I don't live in goatville. Blood tests can be false-negative, and my local vet doesn't have a lab that tests abcesses. Most goat sellers around here don't even know what CL is. If you only go by lumps and history, can you 100% say you are CL free?

I enjoy learning from everyone on this forum, but lets keep this in perspective. We all have to do what we feel is right for our own herd. If I refused to buy an animal based on no knowledge or testing, I would not have my wonderful girls. Lets 'Play nice in the sandbox' and remember we are here to help each other and share the knowlegde we have gained from experience.