Would you balk at buying from a CL positive herd...

Wags · #21 04/03/12, 06:52 PM

I wouldn't buy from a herd with CL - wouldn't even visit if I knew. Too much heartache and expense involved to do that.

chamoisee · #22 04/03/12, 07:06 PM

I would never buy a goat from a herd with CL, no matter how valuable the animal might otherwise be. It wouldn't matter if it was a son of Sodium Oaks Sasin, selling for $50. No way. Once CL is in your soil and on your fences and other wooden structures, it's there for years. No way in heck.

Edited to add: Not from an auction either, any animal.

kasilofhome · #23 04/03/12, 07:42 PM

NO ok need more letters to post NO NO NO

I mean to say that I would and always will avoid any
goat that has any health issues. I live is a very rural area
and it would be easy to destroy or impact others with it.

eclipchic · #24 04/03/12, 08:19 PM

I was just realizing in all this CL discussion a friend of mine's daughter recently had surgery for a lesion on her neck, they were suspecting atypical TB.....after looking at Merek's manual.....CL is an atypical TB for humans. They still haven't got the lab work back on her but I would not be surprised if it comes back as Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis and she maybe got it from petting an animal somewhere, maybe a petting zoo. Nasty stuff and she's going to be on antibiotics for pretty much ever since this typically reoccurs. Her daughter is my son's age (almost 3)

The picture she showed of her daughter's neck looks almost exactly like the pictures you find of human manifestations of CL. Not what I'd want to find on my kid's neck. Granted I'm not sure that's where it came from and I'm not sure it's CL at all but it certainly could be by the looks of it.

rootsandwings · #25 04/03/12, 08:22 PM

Lada, have you never seen a goat butt the dividing bars between him and a new goat until his head bleeds? Have you never seen a kid misjudge and cause a foot to bleed when trimming hooves? What if he has an abcess in his lungs and coughs all over other goats and visiting children?

**mygoat** · #26 04/03/12, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBarGFarmKeeper

If you research meat goats, CL and carcasses at all, you will find that "most" meat goat herds have CL, they don't see the issues that we "dairies" do and the CL abscesses don't effect the carcasses. They come off with the skin or they come out with the guts. It sounds disgusting but if it were a point of greater financial loss for the producer most would see it as a bigger problem. Some do vaccinate. The producers that have been around for years see it as the "responsible" thing to do.

I have heard many on here berate the Case-Bac vaccine but have also talked to goat producers (dairy and meat) that have used the vaccine successfully for years to prevent or control a problem that has been caught or in an effort to avoid one. (Some producers have spoken directly to the manufacturer about the vaccine and know that it has been quite successful in the majority of cases with goats. I wish parents-at-large did as much research into the vaccines and medications that human "kids" are given every year.)

I have not had nor do I EVER intend to have a CL positive goat but can certainly understand that sometimes "CRAP" happens and, albeit, not perfect the Case-Bac vac is an option that is available to those wishing to use it and I would never condemn someone for making an effort at responsibility.

Stepping down now....

Actually, if there are active abscesses in the carcass the carcass MUST be condemned. At least, that's what I've been told. And, it does cause a chronic wasting and lowered production for the affected animals. It IS (or should be from an economic sense) a worrisome disease for ALL producers.

Though I used to hear that CL lives in the soil for up to 10 years, no scientific paper I have ever found has ever collaborated with this. It lives for *DAYS* on surfaces. In soils/dirts/bedding, it lives for possibly *MONTHS*. The cleaner and dryer you can keep your equipment, the less chance it has to live.

If you had a CL positive herd and practiced strict biosecurity, vaccination, and let land sit for about a year between batches of goats, you COULD potentially have a disease free herd within a year or two with hard culling.

But yes, I agree that I would've also have taken the goat back. It's just not fair to other owners who will have their goats nose-to-nose with the possibly infected one for a WEEK. And most goats are healthy at check in - STRESS (such as fair week) often INDUCES the disease symptoms. One just hopes that the abcess is external so the animal is excused from the barn instead of internal so the goat is realeasing the bacterium by coughing/pooing (or in the case of dairies, lactating). Internal abscesses can occur in the lungs, in the mammary, supposedly along the intestine/digestive tract, liver etc. USUALLY in lymph nodes but can form anywhere along the lymph system.

chewie · #27 04/03/12, 10:52 PM

I think you got your answer! no way. sadly, our local fair doesn't have the strict health inspections and I have seen with my own eyes, a dairy that had tons of lumps. I was horrified and spent the rest of my time keeping my one doeling in the corner untouched by anyone. got some dirty scowls when I took her home too as they wanted them there overnight. told them that I cannot risk my entire farm for this one dinky show and that I KNOW there are animals here with a horrible contagious disease. they looked at me like I was nuts. I don't care. I don't have cl either!! and that other farm--they claim they dont' know what cl even is?!

Oat Bucket Farm · #28 04/03/12, 10:53 PM

I would not buy a CL positive animal or even visit a farm if I knew it had CL on it. No way, no how.

southerngurl · #29 04/03/12, 11:01 PM

CL is super contagious and hard to get rid of and just plain gross. The reason I don't want to get near a CL goat is if that goat had an abscess anytime half way recent, the cl can be on the animal, I could bring it home on my shoe or something and step on my ground and contaminate it. Once it's on your place, it's there to stay unless you want to get rid of all your animals and wait about a decade and try again.

The more people that treat it like a big deal, the better.

KrisD · #30 04/04/12, 12:37 AM

I would be devastated if I took my goats to a show be they contracted CL from someone who didn't care. The time, money, love and work I put into them makes me sick just to think about it. I'm glad she got her money back.

Creamers · #31 04/04/12, 12:57 AM

Do you actually mean CAE? From the way you worded the first post, it sounds like you might be thinking CAE, not CL

KrisD · #32 04/04/12, 01:44 AM

Creamers that's what I was thinking when she said they were raised on prevention.

CarolT · #33 04/04/12, 09:24 AM

Lada, I know you feel badly for putting them in this position, I would too. Tell the breeder that you're sorry and that you, and others, are very grateful she is up front and honest and please don't change

Tell the other friend you are sorry and you never imagined it would be an issue, and that you wouldn't buy one from an auction unless it was one for 4H goats that is monitored.

If it's CAE, there _can_ be prevention and the goat should be ok. If the advisor was told CL rather than CAE and it is CAE, the reaction may have been totally different. It's hard to keep diseases straight when they're letters sometimes. Hopefully, this was the case.

I would not want to knowingly buy or sell a goat with a disease. I believe things are often downplayed then we find later that there are more issues than we were told. But that's just me...

where I want to · #34 04/04/12, 10:34 AM

Whoa there- I am passionate about avoiding CL but some remarks have gone way past reality.
I bought two goats to start from two different people. Unknown to me (but I think the seller knew) one was infected with CL.
Luckily for me, I took the goat to the vet to have the first abscess first drained and tested. So I knew not to let any abscess drain anywhere on my place right from the start.
But the infected goat lived with her companion for almost two years before the first abcess showed up. That companion is CL free having been tested yearly and never having had an abscess after 8 years. Other goats are CL free too. So, it is not readily spread without contact with a draining abscess making contact.
Also, it does not spread to people easily either. You'd have to have the pus come into contact with an open sore and then you probably would not pick it up.
Australia had a bad problem with CL in sheep until they developed a vaccine but even with this only a very few people involved in butchering ever developed any problem.
I would never knowingly allow an infected goat at my place because it is an ugly problem for those poor goats who have it. But a little perspective is needed.

Lada · #35 04/04/12, 07:39 PM

Thank you! I think you picked up on my perspective. It's very unlikely that a market wether could infect anyone at the age he would be at the fair, imo. I've never heard of a goat having an abcess that early.

I'm also wondering how exactly it's spread. Some here are saying through poop, but I'm readin several articles that say only through blood or the pus inside an abcess.

JBarGFarmKeeper · #36 04/04/12, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lada

I'm also wondering how exactly it's spread. Some here are saying through poop, but I'm readin several articles that say only through blood or the pus inside an abcess.

I believe you are correct from everything I have read also. I have never read or heard the "poop" contamination.

Creamers · #37 04/04/12, 08:18 PM

I would clarify if she meant CAE - if CAE, the wether would be fine for 4h

Lizza · #38 04/04/12, 08:19 PM

Why anyone would want to risk buying an animal from a know CL herd is completely beyond me. The animal would be at best un-thrifty, may not make weight anyways, and may not be able to sell and the child would be left with months of time and money and have nothing to sell, and possibly infect their entire home for years.

Anyways, moving on.

My daughter is a pre-vet student and said they are working to determine the correlation from transmission through feces. If the Lungs are infected (of which you would not see) it can be transmitted through coughing and nasal secretions Update on Caseous Lymphadenitis of Sheep and Goats from Washington State University. You would easily transmit to every neighbor in the surrounding pens that your infected animal was housed. Giving the gift that keeps on giving.

mary,tx · #39 04/04/12, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eclipchic

I was just realizing in all this CL discussion a friend of mine's daughter recently had surgery for a lesion on her neck, they were suspecting atypical TB.....after looking at Merek's manual.....CL is an atypical TB for humans. They still haven't got the lab work back on her but I would not be surprised if it comes back as Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis and she maybe got it from petting an animal somewhere, maybe a petting zoo. Nasty stuff and she's going to be on antibiotics for pretty much ever since this typically reoccurs. Her daughter is my son's age (almost 3)

The picture she showed of her daughter's neck looks almost exactly like the pictures you find of human manifestations of CL. Not what I'd want to find on my kid's neck. Granted I'm not sure that's where it came from and I'm not sure it's CL at all but it certainly could be by the looks of it.

Even if CL was not contagious to humans, I would not consider bringing it home and exposing my herd. The fact that humans can get this awful disease should be reason enough for anyone to avoid it like the plague.

where I want to · #40 04/04/12, 10:44 PM

Sheep are more likely to form internal abscesses, goats more likely to form external abscesses.
I have read about pidgeon fever in horses (the coryne psuedoturberculosis in horses) spreading the disease but never in goats or sheep. I think because horse poop is breeding ground (being lovely large lumps of moisture) for biting insects but goat is dry and hard (or ought to be) and not really a source of insects at least at my place.