horns or not...ours are horned...you?

LoneStrChic23 · #41 04/02/12, 11:53 PM

If I ran meat goats on huge open spaces, I'd leave the horns on..... Plus most boers I've seen have prettier, backwards pointing horns vs the straight up daggers I see on a lot of horned dairy goats...

But, I raise dairy goats, in a smaller area. So, no horns.

No horns was the agreement between DH & I when I bought goats...... As a child he was gored by a goat & it punctured his abdomen, put him in the hospital & he still sports a scar.

I personally witnessed a lil horned pygmy mix stuck in a fence & stray dogs had attacked, and eaten his ears, face & part of his neck as he was trapped, helpless, by his horns. Worse, when I came upon the scene, I realized after all of that he was still alive

I've seen what was once a beautiful udder, ruined by a horned nigerian stabbing it...

My kids (7 & 9) are very hands on with the goats.... We left horns on a lil buckling, & one day while out lovin on them, he got startled & whipped his head around quickly..... Missed my daughter's eye by less than an inch & gouged her face. Had I disbudded him, it would have been a bruise, not a gouge..... He wasn't mean, and it wasn't intentional, just an accident.

My fencing is cattle panel welded to pipe, & my hay feeders are not horn friendly...

My buyers pay more for disbudded kids... I can sell horned kids for meat prices, but why would I want to when I get more for disbudded animals?

So, for me, my situation & my goals, no horns. Ever. Not crazy about disbudding, but it's over quickly.

To each their own & everyone needs to choose what fits their situation best.

Would love it if I could just have polled animals..... One of my does was polled, but of course she was the weak link in my herd, so as much as I wanted polled, she was sold as a milker.

Cliff · #42 04/03/12, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creamers

Never, Never and again I say never would I purposely leave a goat with horns.

Did I say NEVER?

I cannot think of a single reason to consider leaving horns on. I have actually never heard a single argument that has even a remotely good reason to leave them on (and I've heard all arguments made on this thread and others not found here), and moreover, as a 15 year vegetarian and animal rights advocate, I can say I do not find it inhumane in anyway - we give banamine before, they get up and go on their merry way, un-phased.

Always disbud

Glad it works for you

That's what the thread is about, what works for you and why.
We are being careful to not let the subject turn in to an argument and it is actually working so far

oz in SC V2.0 · #43 04/03/12, 08:20 AM

The horns of a goat help it to cool down in hot weather.

It is hot a lot in Summer,so perhaps it makes sense.

But do what you want,they are your goats.

Cliff · #44 04/03/12, 08:22 AM

Wow too many stories about kids getting slammed or injured by horns. If we had children here either there would be no horns or the children would not be allowed in the goat pen. Most probably no horns because we all know children just have to do the forbidden at least once

And those baby goats are just so cute lol.

There is just too much risk of injury for kids. Even if they know what to watch for they just don't have our reflexes or attention span or judgement.

That is a child minding issue as much as it is a goat horn issue imo.

Cliff · #45 04/03/12, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KrisD

I actually had this discussion with my folks today. My folks are super against disbudding. My dad said " you were up in arms when your husband had your son circumsized but you would burn the horns off a goat on purpose??" they then proceeded to tell me that I shouldn't own goats. I totally understand their point but I also know goats. I feel horrible disbudding and I cry and apologize to them profusely. I hate it but it has to be done for their safety as well as everyone else's. If I could breed only for polled I would but there isn't a big selection of bucks around here to choose from. If I could safely have them put under and given morphine I would do it. I can't and I can't figure out another way. I wish like deer they would just shed their horns every fall.

Aww so sorry you have to deal with this kind of strife from family members over something that's really not that important in the big picture of life.

Tell them about the risk for your child? Tell them actual horror stories of children's injuries and disfigurement, being blinded, etc? Sometimes people can't imagine bad things happening and it helps to give them a mental picture. All it takes is one accident and a child's life could be changed forever.

Wolf Flower · #46 04/03/12, 01:47 PM

I do not like horns for a number of reasons, yet I dislike disbudding... so I breed for polled.

I do disbud the horned offspring I get. There isn't much of a market for horned dairy goats around here. Meat goats are different, many if not most people leave the horns on their Boers. But if I had meat goats I'd probably disbud them too, because I don't want horned goats in my herd. Nothing against them, it's just not my preference.

SiameseVA · #47 04/03/12, 09:57 PM

What age is appropriate to disbud?

Oat Bucket Farm · #48 04/03/12, 10:23 PM

Within the first two weeks is the best time to disbud. We try to have ours done by the time they are ten days old.

rileyjo · #49 04/04/12, 04:11 AM

My goats have spectacular horns. I've never had any issues with them but I am careful. I always handle my goats by their collars and they stand calmly. It's when I try to grab them by their horns that they get uncomfortable. People who are serious about show goats disbud but the goat world here in general is full of backyard mutts.

Lately, I've been getting pokes from one 7 month old who is a pest in general and will probably be sold. Naughty Houdini goats get to go live somewhere else. If children come visiting here, the goats are off limits for petting. Some of my goats are nibblers and a nip could be a pretty traumatizing experience for a small wanna be farmer.

LoneStrChic23 · #50 04/04/12, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SiameseVA

What age is appropriate to disbud?

Depends on the goat. Alpines, bucks especially, are notorious for broad horn bases, so I burn them as soon as I think they can handle it........ Usually by 3-4 days old. Others I wait to feel the tinest lil bump, then burn...... Usually no more than 10-12 days old.

One exception, a Nubian doeling who was the tinest of quads, at 1 month old, she finally had the lil bumps that my other kids had by a week old. So she was burned much later than the rest.

So, I go by feel, and I never, ever wait so long that the buds are pushing through the skin. At that point, it takes longer to burn properly.

I prefer to ice pack between burns (cools the head, lets the iron reheat), give a smidge of banamine & have a bottle waiting...... But I'm told I baby mine too much

MDKatie · #51 04/04/12, 01:47 PM

I also cannot stand horned goats, and will never ever own one. Well, *maybe* if it was Boer, but I still prefer disbudded and would really try to find hornless before I ever considered bringing a horned animal on my property.

I've been horned in the knees, injured my wrist when I was holding a collar, etc. It's not worth the hassle. Disbudding is really not that bad, and my kids seem to holler more when I restrain them. They're bouncing and playing as soon as they're put down. I think horned goats are pretty ugly, too.

TriWinkle · #52 04/04/12, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creamers

Never, Never and again I say never would I purposely leave a goat with horns.

Did I say NEVER?

I cannot think of a single reason to consider leaving horns on. I have actually never heard a single argument that has even a remotely good reason to leave them on (and I've heard all arguments made on this thread and others not found here), and moreover, as a 15 year vegetarian and animal rights advocate, I can say I do not find it inhumane in anyway - we give banamine before, they get up and go on their merry way, un-phased.

Always disbud

So what I'm reading, is that you're not real sure about horns versus no norns... kinda on the fence, but willing to consider all options?

airotciv · #53 04/04/12, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by preparing

NOT looking for an argument...just personal preference.

We have 2 horned does. The doeling that was just kidded will sport horns too.

What do you have and why?

Some of my goats have horns and some don't, they were given to me. The Vet loves the ones with horns, because he can handle them better. But as he says " Those goats know how to use those horns." Yes, they do and they will use them. Not with me, because I feed them. But we do have cougars and horns are good. Got the gun out 2 days ago and the goat went there, don't mess with a ----ed of goat with horns.

Edit: A ticked of goat, sorry.

stanb999 · #54 04/05/12, 12:39 PM

Here in the North East.. Take a goat to auction without horns or banded. You get 50 dollars. I don't care how nice it looks otherwise or how big it is. Take a goat "natural"... By the pound usually better than 2 dollars. A full size doe brings less a big buck can bring much more. Bigger horns... Bigger payday.
I keep my herd "natural".

A herd of goats with horns will stand down a dog or other single preditor. I've seen it. They shuttle the babies to the middle. The boy is in the front. The girls on his flanks. A wall of Horn.

As the goat grows their horns change shape.. Babies to 2 years point out. Keeps the big ones at bay... They have pointy daggers for protection. Yeah, a yearling can run off the big boy in full rutt. By 3 they start pointing backwards.. Get thick and are used only for asserting dominance. .

beccachow · #55 04/05/12, 04:00 PM

Mine are all horned. They never gore, they use the rounded part of their horns to shove each other around. BUT...

Smokie has been stuck in a fence several times by his stupidity and horns. And I accidentally got a stick when I was caring for a downed goat who lifted her head, no intentional goring, just bad placement of my body in relation to her head. And the horns make such a handy grab, no matter HOW much I know you shouldn't do it, and it becomes an interesting game with my biggest fellow. I also worry with the biggest, he jumps fences, and the smallest, they tunnel under. However, I am glad they have at least a bit of protection should they escape and not be able to get back in fast enough.

------'s horns are curled under and over his head, Smokie's are slightly curved, and Annie's stick out like an alien antenna. I think horn shape plays into the amount of damage they can do accidentally.

When I extend the herd, horned or not will not play into my decision. Sammy sheep is polled and they never pick on him at all, short of shoving with the rounded part of the horn. I can see where an accidental goring could happen, and how easily an ill tempered goat could use horns to hurt someone.

CaliannG · #56 04/05/12, 07:56 PM

That's how mine are, Becky.

The bucks, especially, are super gentle, even with the babies. I have been watching them lately, because when I take everyone out into the woods, the baby bucks want to play. The big boys will do this HUGE show, rear full up, come crashing down, then just....stop.....and let the baby bonk his head against their horns. It is so darn CUTE! It's like the big boys are saying, "Hey...I say hey son! Here...let me show you how this is done." The babies do their little bonk and then go racing around and hopping as if they were just fully delighted they they got to bonk the horns of a guy that outweighs them by 125lbs.

My granddaughter has used a buck's horns to try to climb up on him. She fell on her butt, however HE never hurt her. (He is pack trained, so this was not as much of an insult as some might think)

THAT is the temperament that I breed for.

As for children? I taught my children how to behave around livestock, and what to watch out for. Now, we get to teach the same thing to the grandchildren. ALL animals can be dangerous....even a kitten being playful can give a child Petzetakis' disease.

I was 12 years old when the Jersey steer we had tried to jump me, and I ended up with 15 stitches. I find this amusingly ironic since the doctor bill came to about the same amount that she had spent having the mobile vet come out and dehorn him, so that I would be "safe". My mother, of course, had an instant litter of golden kittens (which scurried off, never to be seen again) and sent that steer immediately off to slaughter, way before he was finished.

Stan, we have the same thing out here. There are a LOT of folks who want to see big, beautiful horns, and are willing to pay the $$ to do so. ~grinz~ Even in dairy, if you were willing to grow out bucks until their horns started curling, you would make a MINT on registered herd sires. Dairy bucks grow the most impressive horns.

dosthouhavemilk · #57 04/05/12, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stanb999

Here in the North East.. Take a goat to auction without horns or banded. You get 50 dollars. I don't care how nice it looks otherwise or how big it is. Take a goat "natural"... By the pound usually better than 2 dollars. A full size doe brings less a big buck can bring much more. Bigger horns... Bigger payday.
I keep my herd "natural".

I believe you are in PA, right? (Or did you move?)
Our goats are shipped to Eighty-Four in PA. We castrate everything and disbud them as well. We get the same price as the school does for their horned (and castrated) kids of similar breeding. That price is close to/or over $2 a pound depending on how many buyers are there. $50 is for a poor Select 3 pygmy generally at the auction we ship to. When comparing our check to the prices posted to the website, we easily have the top of the select 1 kids sold. So they do not discriminate where we ship to.
Disbudding and castrating does not affect the price we receive for good meat goats...But this is the western part of PA.

chamoisee · #58 04/05/12, 08:10 PM

Some ethnic markets have religious prohibitions about eating males that have been castrated or dehorned. I do not castrate or disbud meat kids, because I butcher at around 3 months anyway, and they grow out better without the added stress.

dosthouhavemilk · #59 04/05/12, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chamoisee

Some ethnic markets have religious prohibitions about eating males that have been castrated or dehorned. I do not castrate or disbud meat kids, because I butcher at around 3 months anyway, and they grow out better without the added stress.

There are some times of the year we avoid shipping for that reason. We don't aim for those markets. Tried leaving horns and balls intact..ended up with a year of "Whose Your Daddies?" and a horn breaking off in my hand.

I do understand the different markets though and there are those that discriminate for sure.

P.S. I am not arguing, I swear.

chamoisee · #60 04/05/12, 08:19 PM

Yeah, I wouldn't do it if I had them longer. Mine were Alpines and never came into heat during the spring and summer, so it was OK as long as they were all gone before September.