horns or not...ours are horned...you?

CaliannG · #21 04/02/12, 12:09 AM

~chuckles~ And that being said.....

I have not had any of my horned dairy goats use their horns to dismantle anything, much less to destroy their pens, facilities, etc. Also, the Angora and Cashmere goats I have known are nothing at ALL like sheep, and are tougher on fences, and each other, than my dairy goats.

My friend's Angora and Angora/Cashmere crosses can be downright wild.... one of the reasons I nixed my DH's idea of a fiber herd. Not a lot of folks (although there are SOME) breeding for temperament in the fiber industry, and we have a BUNCH of fiber goats down here.

chamoisee · #22 04/02/12, 12:39 AM

Any range raised goat is going to be wild regardless of breed. And, I wish dairy goat breeders would breed for temperament instead of spots and ears and whatnot, but they don't, not nearly enough. At any rate, this was supposed to be a civil thread....

The fact remains that the difference between a registered goat kid with horns and a registered goat without them is as much as several hundred dollars. If the goats are going to be pets and the kids are going to be eaten, it doesn't matter. If they're registered stock that's being bred for improvement and the extra kids will be sold, then it makes sense to disbud them.

southerngurl · #23 04/02/12, 06:28 AM

No horns here. I don't want to be accidentally stabbed, and I don't want my goats getting eachother with horns. I've seen does put their head under another does udder and pull up to flip her away, if they did this with horns, the udder would be tore open. To me, with dairy goats and their big udders, it's just a matter of time if they have horns. I do have to make sure and keep my togg shaved in the summer. As long as I do the she stays cool. The Nubians never have trouble with the heat.

Suzyq2u · #24 04/02/12, 06:46 AM

Well....I think they're beautiful, and we really wanted a horned herd....however...
We have one goat (star) who is the wearer of tennis balls on her horns since we had an accident last summer. Long story short, we had a little guy (15wks old) get gored and we didn't know how to repair it nor have the means to get it done quickly at night, he had to be put down.

We now have educated ourselves a little more on how to and I would like to think be able to repair a similar accident, have our supplies, etc. It did make us re-evaluate our thoughts on a horned herd.

We have pulled star out of fences (loosing a section or two). Thankfully we can see our goats 99% of the time. She ended up with the 'stick of shame' prior to the tennis balls to help with this issue, now the tennisballs seem wide enough to keep her out.

We decided to keep star as the accident had unusual circumstances -- just with the tennis balls. She is very aware when they're off (like right now she's missing one) and stands her ground more (she's our 'herd queen') -- hasn't caused another issue, but she'll be getting a replacement this morning!

Our other adult goats are hornless. We had 6 kids born 3.5 wks ago. 2 of which appear to have horn buds. (HOW we got polled goats from mutts I have no clue, lol)

Life happened and the pair (1 doe, 1 buck) didn't get disbudded. Now they have about an inch of horn. The boy will be going into the freezer so I'm not too concerned about him. I suppose the disposition of the doeling will depend on whether she sticks around and how 'decorated' her headgear is

Cliff · #25 04/02/12, 08:13 AM

Hahaha "stick of shame." Love it.

With goats, as with most other animals that form a pack or herd, dominance is mostly posturing. If the members of the group were to severely injure one another on a regular basis the group would be weakened and not survive. So my feeling about behavior that someone may see and think "wow if that goat had horns that would be really bad" is that if the perp had horns dominance would be asserted differently so that it wouldn't cause devastating injury.
This isn't a statement supporting keeping horned goats, just an observation of animal behavior.

To the person who got stabbed by the scur - if the goat was horned you wouldn't have had your face so close. There is definitely less of a lovey huggy relationship with horned goats lol. You moderate your behavior or you stand the chance of injury. I don't even let our horned goats crowd close to me out of self preservation. But it's not just because of the horns. They are big honking things and it hurts when they step on my feet. Also it's just downright disrespectful - I don't let any of my animals crowd me like that.

Ours don't use their horns to dismantle things either. And using horns as handles has not made them use them as weapons. I think the horn thing has turned into such a hot button issue that sometimes these things are used as justification for disbudding. You don't need to justify your actions to anyone. They are your animals on your farm and it's nobody's business what you do unless you are just flat out abusing animals. I don't consider disbudding to be abuse, just like I don't consider castration to be abuse. It is unpleasant of course but when we domesticate wild animals for our own use there are just certain things we have to control according to our needs.

For our purpose there is no financial downside to leaving the horns alone. If there were we'd definitely disbud. As it stands now for us that would just add one more unpleasant thing to do with no benefit.

mary,tx · #26 04/02/12, 08:18 AM

My first choice is polled. My second choice is disbudded. I've had a couple of horned goats, and they were beautiful, but not so nice with the polled goats. And one of them butted my young daughter up against the barn wall once. IMO goats have plenty enough attitude without the horns. A goat that has horns and knows the others don't has way too much attitude.

oz in SC V2.0 · #27 04/02/12, 08:52 AM

Haven't had any issues yet with our horned goats,we did have to establish who is 'boss' a few times,especially with the Queen,nothing seems to deflate a goats 'ego' like putting them on their side/back.
The only injury was from the newest and youngest doeling,she accidentally butted me in the face when frightened by some chickens in her goat shelter...

Our buck has been a baby so far,but we all realise he is a buck,and not to be trusted.I have had to show him the order of things a little but nothing major.

Their horns do not really enter into it for me,it is their size,the boy will outweigh me soon enough,but I (hopefully) have more brains than him.

TriWinkle · #28 04/02/12, 09:19 AM

My first two, well really my only two, don't have horns, they came that way...Given that, I'll probably keep it that way...would kinda feel bad about bringing horned goats in when the two little bitties I have already don't...kinda like giving all but two kids baseball bats to play with, you know which two would get hit the most.

I don't know how cruel it is or not, but I'm sure if a buck goat could talk, and you gave him the option of taking his horns or his testicles, he'd start sawing off those horns himself.

ozark_jewels · #29 04/02/12, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord lycoperdon

I've heard that goats use their horns to "sweat" does anyone know any more about this?

Thanks
Dusty

Having had a mixed herd of horned and disbudded for years, I can truthfully say that my horned does/bucks were no hotter or cooler than my disbudded does/bucks.

Sherry in Iowa · #30 04/02/12, 11:13 AM

Our first four goats were disbudded before we bought them. They were registered Nubians and Saanens. We put a horned buck in with them and have kept all goats horned since then. Oddly enough..the two old nubies (now passed on) were second and third in the line of bosses and my old Weezie saanen goat is STILL boss. Don't know how long Weezie will be with us..she is 13 now.

We have never had injuries due to horns (to people or other livestock). We have had a handful of kids over the years that got their heads stuck reaching through the fences. Yep, they wore a piece of hose taped to their horns until they got too big to get stuck.

We also raise horned Dexters. We had one Dexter cow that was dehorned when we got her..the horned girls would try her..and she made them pay every time. Our cattle and goats run together..and I've never seen them use horns on each other. The cows "move" the goats..but they don't use their horns to do it.

Our buck however is in with the steers. They outweigh him .. but he pretty well runs the ship in that pasture.

wolffeathers · #31 04/02/12, 02:08 PM

Polled first, horned second, disbudded third.

I always thought disbudding was an ugly unnecessary chore. I hope that polled genetics can be worked to get the glitches out. I would love to know not another animal would need it's flesh burned, but can completely understand those that do. I just think if it can be achieved with genetics, that should be the way it is. I understand that polled genetics are still in the works and it's not a sure thing yet and the bugs haven't been worked out. Until then people will continue to disbud and it's understandable.

If horns were ever as wildly accepted as hornless, mine would probably all have horns unless born polled. But I know we're not at that point yet.

CaliannG · #32 04/02/12, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chamoisee

And, I wish dairy goat breeders would breed for temperament instead of spots and ears and whatnot, but they don't, not nearly enough.

You and me both!!!

Temperament is so important to me that the beautifully colored, conformation-nearly-perfect, absolutely gorgeous buck of mine was wethered...not because he is mean, (he isn't in the least) but because he is not QUITE as laid-back, sweet, and easy-going as I'd like.

And this is why the coarser buck with the faulty coloring, but the absolutely fabulous temperament, sired this season's kids. So far, he has bred true on both that fabulous temperament AND the faulty coloring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chamoisee

The fact remains that the difference between a registered goat kid with horns and a registered goat without them is as much as several hundred dollars. If the goats are going to be pets and the kids are going to be eaten, it doesn't matter. If they're registered stock that's being bred for improvement and the extra kids will be sold, then it makes sense to disbud them.

I have not found this to be true. HOWEVER, the people that buy from me are looking for what I am breeding for: outstanding temperaments and top-notch production. They, like me, don't show, they do Linear Appraisals, if anything, and DHIR.

Even if I disbudded, show-specific folks wouldn't be here looking for stock, because when it does come down to conformation, I breed for straight top-lines, and it seems that sloped top-lines (German Shepherd style) with cocked hips are in fashion. I find such conformation structurally unsound. (Look at what it has done to the German Shepherd.)

I don't get less money for my horned stock than the show folks are getting for their disbudded stock of similar quality, BUT I am selling to a completely different market.

Now, see? We're being perfectly civil.

CaliannG · #33 04/02/12, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sherry in Iowa

Our first four goats were disbudded before we bought them. They were registered Nubians and Saanens. We put a horned buck in with them and have kept all goats horned since then. Oddly enough..the two old nubies (now passed on) were second and third in the line of bosses and my old Weezie saanen goat is STILL boss. Don't know how long Weezie will be with us..she is 13 now.

My disbudded, Mini-Nubian doe is the herd queen here. My foster-daughter asked me about that:

"Mom, why is the *littlest* girl with NO horns the boss? ALL of the other girls are bigger than her, and she isn't the oldest girl, and most of the other girls have horns, but what SHE says goes.... why?"

I told her, "Honey, she is living proof that it isn't how big you are, or how armed and dangerous you are, or even how old you are that determines your success. It is all about *attitude*, and Brie has that in abundance!"

**mygoat** · #34 04/02/12, 05:21 PM

Two problems with polled...

1. Hermaprodites - I know some will say it's not true, but literature and many folks claim that polled-polled is a bad idea, as it increases your likelihood of getting hermaphrodites. I'm no expert, I'm just bringing it up as an observation.

2. Uncommon in many areas - This means that for many breeds, your polled animals cannot be found, OR are not something you particularly want to breed in, let alone line breed on to produce more polled offspring. I'd rather breed in a genetically horned animal with good production and conformation, than an average animal simply because it is polled. I'm sure there are good ones out there but not many, and not easily accessed by most.

If you have a market for horned goats, all the power to you. I, too, think horns are gorgeous - especially on boers (but less so on dairies who haven't been bred for 'pretty' horn structure, lol) but I'm still convinced that the management is different as I've had to struggle with horned animals on many occassions in my 10 years of raising these darn critters. Only one death from horns and it was partially my fault as well - tried using a hay net and the doe stuck her head in and couldn't get out - hung herself.

No matter how sweet, the horned ones know how to 'hook' you or stretch their chin up and poke your hands on their collar, and I have had them destroy fencing and housing with horns. I've seen a dairy goat get 'hooked' in the udder, thankfully no tearing but she was a little bruised. I don't know how many times I've extricated goats from fencing.

Depending on the horns, they usually have a short period of time where they get stuck - eventually they either cannot stick their head through, OR learn to extricate themselves.

I leave horns on my 'meat only' kids and will leave the option open for buyers to select their boers with or without horns. Boers do not decrease in value when horns are left on - in some cases, they're worth LESS without horns. For me, keepers will be disbudded. Any mini goats sold as pets are disbudded. Dairy kids are ALWAYS disbudded, no exceptions. In my PERSONAL OPINION, it is better for the life of the dairy or pet animal if it is disbudded. YMMV.

Here (and 98% of the time I imagine), you can't really give away horned dairy goats. They're a dime a dozen and thus not 'worth' much. If they're not 'worth' much they're TYPICALLY not placed in good, responsible homes. I know many horned goats in excellent homes, I'm not claiming that's the case 100% of the time... just that the AVERAGE horned dairy goat is not worth as much as a disbudded one.

thaiblue12 · #35 04/02/12, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chamoisee

The fact remains that the difference between a registered goat kid with horns and a registered goat without them is as much as several hundred dollars. If the goats are going to be pets and the kids are going to be eaten, it doesn't matter. If they're registered stock that's being bred for improvement and the extra kids will be sold, then it makes sense to disbud them.

I have found that there is a price difference when selling horned goats. The few that did not get disbudded I had a hard time selling so I let the doeling go for $60 and the little wethers for $30 just to move them out. Back then I was getting $150 for disbudded doelings and $75 for disbudded wethers.
I find that if they want them as pets or their kids will be using them for 4H they want horns even less registered or not.

None of mine horned goats liked their horns being used as handles. It was the quickest way to get them to plant their feet and not move. I move them without horns pretty easy.

I am guilty- I like spots and solid colored big ears

but I do not breed for it, I just like it.

chamoisee · #36 04/02/12, 06:09 PM

Yeah, me too.

I bred for solid black...but temperament was always more important than color.

chamoisee · #37 04/02/12, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygoat

Here (and 98% of the time I imagine), you can't really give away horned dairy goats. They're a dime a dozen and thus not 'worth' much. If they're not 'worth' much they're TYPICALLY not placed in good, responsible homes. I know many horned goats in excellent homes, I'm not claiming that's the case 100% of the time... just that the AVERAGE horned dairy goat is not worth as much as a disbudded one.

That was my experience too. I have never, and I do mean never sold or seen anyone else sell, a horned goat for $600, which is a fairly average price for registered stock from high quality, proven lines. I haven't even seen them go for half that.

It's not just about the money, though. If I were to sell a goat to someone else -Tracy, for example

---money isn't my only motive. I also want my lines to be used and proven in other herds. It's good publicity and it's the only way to really prove your stock. That wouldn't happen if people didn't want my animals.

Creamers · #38 04/02/12, 11:14 PM

Never, Never and again I say never would I purposely leave a goat with horns.

Did I say NEVER?

I cannot think of a single reason to consider leaving horns on. I have actually never heard a single argument that has even a remotely good reason to leave them on (and I've heard all arguments made on this thread and others not found here), and moreover, as a 15 year vegetarian and animal rights advocate, I can say I do not find it inhumane in anyway - we give banamine before, they get up and go on their merry way, un-phased.

Always disbud

The Tin Mom · #39 04/02/12, 11:22 PM

I hate horned goats. Period. The neighbor left her goats horned one year and we take care of the their animals occasionally. I am so glad she decided to butcher all of those goats. They weren't mean, but they could accidentally poke a child (my child) while being fed, etc. There were many times, during the mad dash to the feeder, that I decided we would not help with her goats any more...

KrisD · #40 04/02/12, 11:44 PM

I actually had this discussion with my folks today. My folks are super against disbudding. My dad said " you were up in arms when your husband had your son circumsized but you would burn the horns off a goat on purpose??" they then proceeded to tell me that I shouldn't own goats. I totally understand their point but I also know goats. I feel horrible disbudding and I cry and apologize to them profusely. I hate it but it has to be done for their safety as well as everyone else's. If I could breed only for polled I would but there isn't a big selection of bucks around here to choose from. If I could safely have them put under and given morphine I would do it. I can't and I can't figure out another way. I wish like deer they would just shed their horns every fall.