Ozark Jewels in Need of Prayer

MOgal · #**181** 03/20/12, 02:33 PM

A side note, off topic. We lease our pasture to a professional lifelong farmer who fertilizes, cuts, bales and puts enough round bales into our barn for our animals then buys the rest of the hay for his cattle. I am so grateful for that man's knowledge and skill at putting up hay when I hear about this sort of tragedy. Of course, there are other things that can go wrong with hay but I don't think too much fertilizer is going to be an issue with his years of farming.

CaliannG · #**182** 03/20/12, 03:18 PM

I am just sitting here with tears running down my face as I have read this entire thread.

I am so sorry, Emily, for all you have been through, and such suffering and devastation! There are no words to express both my sympathy for you and the horror of this.

A new hay grower might not know not to use urea to fertilize before harvesting. This sounds a LOT like urea poisoning.

~hugs~ I am so sorry, and my prayers and healing wishes go out to you and the rest of your herd.

tailwagging · #**183** 03/20/12, 03:36 PM

((HUGS))

**mygoat** · #**184** 03/20/12, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by susanne

urea is very toxic for goats

Not necessarily, from what I'm finding. Urea CAN be toxic when fed too high amounts, or to babies without a developed rumen. But in a functioning rumen at reasonable amounts, it is a perfectly good NPN source for goats. Sounds like the feed mill put in too much, or the change was too sudden for the goats to handle.

http://www.sweetlix.com/media/docume...hsAboutNPN.pdf

Any updates on the herd? I hope all the sick ones pulled through.

Rockytopsis · #**185** 03/20/12, 06:04 PM

Just read through this again, still praying for her and the goats.
Nancy

Ranger · #**186** 03/20/12, 08:09 PM

Has anyone spoken to Emily in the last little bit? I hope that things are improving there. I just wish that there was something, anything, that I could do to really help!!!! I still think that the PayPal thing is a good idea.

Backfourty,MI. · #**187** 03/20/12, 09:25 PM

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/goa...oke-emily.html

Here is a link to a thread started by Dreamgoat Annie & it gives the info if you'd like Emily's address to send something.

susanne · #**188** 03/21/12, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygoat

Not necessarily, from what I'm finding. Urea CAN be toxic when fed too high amounts, or to babies without a developed rumen. But in a functioning rumen at reasonable amounts, it is a perfectly good NPN source for goats. Sounds like the feed mill put in too much, or the change was too sudden for the goats to handle.

http://www.sweetlix.com/media/docume...hsAboutNPN.pdf

Any updates on the herd? I hope all the sick ones pulled through.

yeah, same as high fructose corn syrup. the body does not know the difference between that and real sugar as the latest comercial wants as to belive. fact is, i get horrible headache and sick for two days as if i had too much alcohol after i eat something with high fructose corn syrup in it. true, 'ot of people can handle it but not me.

and why would i want to feed something like urea if there is a risk of poisoning my animals? even in the link you posted the risk is mentioned.

no, urea is not something i want in the feed of my goats.

**mygoat** · #**189** 03/21/12, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by susanne

and why would i want to feed something like urea if there is a risk of poisoning my animals? even in the link you posted the risk is mentioned.

no, urea is not something i want in the feed of my goats.

This is off topic but I just must say - there is risk for over supplying ANYTHING. Too much grain suddenly, too much alfalfa suddenly - certainly can kill. Too much copper, too much selenium... heck, even good old dihydrogen monoxide is deadly. Things we give as NECESSITIES can be VERY deadly when given in too high of amounts OR improperly.

thaiblue12 · #**190** 03/21/12, 12:58 PM

Is Camaro's son any better? Are the others improving? I hope so!

southerngurl · #**191** 03/21/12, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygoat

This is off topic but I just must say - there is risk for over supplying ANYTHING. Too much grain suddenly, too much alfalfa suddenly - certainly can kill. Too much copper, too much selenium... heck, even good old dihydrogen monoxide is deadly. Things we give as NECESSITIES can be VERY deadly when given in too high of amounts OR improperly.

Urea is no necessity. It gives nothing to the animal other than protein, whereas protein sources that goats were designed to benefit from contain thousands of other nutrients that work in unison with eachother for the many forgotten and infinitely complicated and mysterious workings of the body. Stick to real food as much as possible and you will be better off.

**mygoat** · #**192** 03/21/12, 02:20 PM

Guess it all depends on what your definition of 'better off' is.

I'm not convinced that urea is bad for goats when used properly. Microbial protein has one of the best AA profiles out there. If I can get them to grow their own protein for WAY cheaper than SBM or alfalfa, and have them do it safely... well, to me that's 'better off'.

I don't feed urea yet but I'm hoping to try it now once the dam raised kids are ruminating.

ozark_jewels · #**193** 03/21/12, 08:09 PM

I want to thank each and every one of you for your prayers, thoughts and help during the last week. I'm sorry I haven't been on sooner, just couldn't quite face it each time I tried. Reading through the previous posts has helped me considerably. Thank you! 12 years in goats, 25 years in cattle and I've never seen anything like this. I hope to never see it again!
Update on the herd. First, the background from first hand.
I was running low on alfalfa/grass hay last week and my usual supplier was out. I had located a man selling "organically grown" alfalfa/clover hay and went to look at it on Wednesday. I picked up 6 bales and told him I'd probably be back for more, if my does liked it. I took it home and split one square bale up between 21 goats in three different pens, spreading it out on top of their usual hay ration. They liked it and by morning it was cleaned up along with their usual hay. So I fed another bale and a half and more of their usual hay at morning milking. It looked good, smelled good. I found a couple flakes with a damp spot and a little bit of mold, but carefully left those flakes aside(and a flake to either side just to be safe) and burnt them. Goats dug right in.
I went to town and met two of my sisters for breakfast. Came back home and was warming up kids lunch milk when I looked over at the yearling pen and noticed that Viola looked funny.....too far away to see why, but didn't look right. So I went over to see. She was alert, but she had a HUGE pile of foam under her mouth on the ground and was constantly dripping more. Just foam, no stomach contents at that time. She was not bloated. I looked inside the sheds and the other five yearlings(Olivia, Perian, Shebang, Mirage and Dune) were all the same. Very scary looking but I had heard of clover causing foaming in horses so wasn't freaking out yet, though very concerned. Checked the other pens and my milking doe herd was all out grazing, but my mature bucks(Eclipse, Camaro and Ichago, a Camaro son I had recently traded a lady back for) were foaming at the mouth also. Started reading up on clover and foaming......didn't seem like I was seeing the usual, it was too intense. Then the bucks started puking up rumen contents. Through the nose and mouth, very uncomfortable. I started freaking out. Andrew and I worked on treating(drenches, shots, you name it, we did it) the yearlings and the mature bucks for several hours then I noticed a few of my does were starting to drool and foam....Oh no. Spree, Jamboree, Shenanigan, Princess, Drama and Spritzer were the worst, but ALL the does were acting very uncomfortable. Except Lark, I can truthfully say that the whole time Andrew and I were out in the dark drenching and shooting up the whole herd, Lark chewed her cud and talked to me. So we treated *everyone* intensely that first night(even Lark). Took until 2:00 AM. Got a few hours sleep and by morning the only terribly sick ones were Camaro, Eclipse, Ichago, Viola, Olivia, Perian, Shebang, Mirage, Dune, Spree, Shenanigan and Jamboree. And they looked *terrible*.
Princess, Drama and Spritzer had no milk but they wanted on the stand and looked 99% better. Everyone else acted about normal, though ticked because I didn't feed anyone any grain that day figuring their stomachs might be delicate. So back to treating the really sick ones. As you know, I lost Eclipse first, then within the hour, Spree and then Camaro. It was heart-rending to lose Spree, and bad to lose Eclipse, but Camaro broke my heart. I have never had a buck like him, he was the sweetest guy at all times, even during breeding season. He loved kisses and I knew his voice and he would always talk to me if he could see or hear me. Camaro will always be missed. At that time I was falling apart and feeling like I was going to lose them all. Spree's sister, Jamboree and their half sister, Shenanigan looked truly terrible, barely able to walk if I stood them on their feet, constantly vomiting and foaming. As were the yearlings, all of them. We kept treating all day. By the time we got finished with one pen, it was time to start on another.
Susie, her daughter, and several other nearby members have been a great physical help and all of you have been super support. THANK YOU.
Now, a week after I fed the hay, I have still only lost the three goats. Jamboree and Shenanigan are almost their old selves. Shebang and Mirage are slowly but surely coming back to themselves. They have the milk to feed their kids again and are eating and cudding. Everyone is still very skinny and rough-looking. Perian popped a teeny-tiny cud today when her buckling started sucking, and she is eating some hay. Dune looks terrible and has not yet eaten or cudded since this began. He is no longer drooling or foaming, but I just can't get him to eat. Ichago, who never did more than a little foaming has also not eaten or cudded in a week. Thinner every day and is starting to look a little dull-eyed. All I can think to do I am doing, trying to rebuild such a compromised stomach as these guys must have. Olivia and Viola, the yearling, pregnant sisters are still not so hot. Viola is the worst. Hasn't eaten or cudded since this began. Seems to just be stuck and not getting worse or better but she has to slide downhill if she won't eat.
Olivia went into premature labour yesterday and as weak as she was after fighting for her own life for 5 days, delivered premie twins. I had to help as they were very tangled. I felt terrible having to go in on a SICK yearling. I expected the kids to be dead after all that, but they were alive and after a few tubed meals, are now sucking it down with a pritchard nipple. A buck and doe, but unfortunately, the doeling has double teats! So they will need good butcher/companion homes as soon as they are well and truly started. Olivia passed her afterbirth and has perked up a lot since delivering her kids. I think the kids were really dragging her recovering body down. She looks awful, but is eating a bit and talks to me constantly.
That is the update. I am so thankful not to have lost more so far and am fighting tooth and nail to save the remainder. It was PRAYER. They all looked so terrible. Please continue to pray hard as at least 4-5 of these are not out of the woods yet, far from it.
I still do not know what caused it, am going to call about hay testing tomorrow. I do not have the bale they were eating from, but I have three more. Hopefully we will come up with something. I have racked my brain but the ONLY change for ALL THREE pens was that hay. I can't think of anything else it could possibly be. Haven't been able to reach the hay seller yet, but am hoping to have some test results to tell him about after the hay testing. If it wasn't the hay, I am completely stumped.
If it WAS the hay, I do not care about financial compensation, but I need to let him know so it does NOT happen to someone else. It has been a nightmare of terrible proportions.
Again, THANK YOU.

ozark_jewels · #**194** 03/21/12, 08:11 PM

If that seems disjointed I do apologize. Still trying to get it all straight in my head.

Backfourty,MI. · #**195** 03/21/12, 08:19 PM

Emily I am still praying & sending my healing thoughts & hugs your way! I am so glad some are doing so much better but still worried about the others.
I am truly sorry for your Losses. Know that all of us here may not be able to be with you in person but were with you in spirit & our thoughts are with you!
Huge hugs!

Minelson · #**196** 03/21/12, 08:22 PM

Oh Emily

This brought tears to my eyes. Than you so much for coming on here and letting us know. Prayers for you and your goats for sure! What a night mare (((hugs)))

The Tin Mom · #**197** 03/21/12, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozark_jewels

If that seems disjointed I do apologize. Still trying to get it all straight in my head.

Not disjointed at all. (((hugs))). It must have been purgatory on earth. Many prayers still headed your way.

southerngurl · #**198** 03/21/12, 08:32 PM

It sounds so much like what I just went through with gangrene mastitis. Mine was just a smaller scale, it was basically only me doing the work, but also just two goats instead of practically a whole herd. I would get done with one round in time to do another. Hardly getting any sleep. So exhausting. And then lost my sweet Baby Girl- my best nubian doe (she actually got into grain while she was sick

). I can just sympathize. So sorry for the ones you lost and I hope the ones that are still ill pull through for you.

I assume you've been doing cud transfers? Keep them up. With Abigail it took about 8 before she started cudding again. With that last one she finally took off. The first thing she ate well on her own was straw but before that I was giving her pine and honeysuckle to get her to eat a little bit- had to put it in her mouth but she would go ahead and eat a few bites. Are they drinking?

prairiedog · #**199** 03/21/12, 08:33 PM

Keeping you and your goats in hopeful thoughts. Can't imagine going through something like that.

Cheryl aka JM · #**200** 03/21/12, 08:37 PM

I can't think of anything helpful to add, but wanted to add my support. I'll keep you and the herd in my prayers this week. Thanks for the update.