Feeding pregnant does- where did I go wrong?

Natural Beauty Farm · #21 03/12/12, 02:23 PM

Sending big ((Hug))
Don't beat yourself up. It sounds like you did everything you could. We all lost animals while we went through the learning curve of trying to find out what works for us on each of our farms.

What I have found out is that it actually takes over a year for any animals I bring in to adjust to the rhythm here, during that time my losses are higher than normal. I think it has to do with goats hiding illnesses and pain so well. I can do everything right, have them in the same pen as one that is homebred, and they will be the problem child for about 15 months.

Kids born here are stronger than their dams and sires that I brought in. Their worm load is less, they grow better, they produce more. I have brought in high milkers, and the second year here they will drop production and never regain it. There daughters will become my strongest milkers though, far out doing what their dams every thought about producing.

Everybody needs to learn what management works for them. So everybody does it differently and you will get 100 different reasons and methods. All I can tell you is that I think you were doing a good job and if you were here the only difference you would have noticed with my feeding is:

Dry does get 10-12% grain until One month before delivery, then we judge their body condition, most do not see more than a handful of grain used as a treat until kidding. We do feed oranges, apples, raisins, carrots for extra vitamins during the last month. Once milking they get 16-18% depending on production.

All of our does and bucks have free access to Alfalfa pellets 24/7, they average 5-8lbs each a day, 1/10th bale of mixed Alfalfa/grass hay each.

Hope that helps. When you are ready for another floppy eared clown, let me know. I would have no problem placing one of my Alfalfa kissing girls with you.

chamoisee · #22 03/12/12, 02:30 PM

Did he do any tests or an autopsy on her? I would really question whether she was actually hypocalcemic. :-/

I am so sorry you lost her.

eclipchic · #23 03/12/12, 04:28 PM

no autopsy, honestly after having the vet come out we were afraid that bill was going to be really high so we didn't do anything beyond her death. I suppose she could have had something else, whatever it was it was fast and hard.

Thanks for saying so Natural Beauty Farm, that means a lot to me. I'm actually a little afraid to go back to the breeder we bought her from to get another, maybe embarrassed is a better way to put it.

copperpennykids · #24 03/12/12, 05:10 PM

After reading Natural Beauty Farm's post, about the only thing that looks like it could be tweaked is more alfalfa pellets than you were feeding.

Otherwise, it looks you were feeding quite well. I will say again, that the injury possibly caused her to eat less, which started her off on a slow decline in calorie consumption. Any time a doe is heavily bred and either she seems "off" or an injury occurs, etc. We tend to watch them more closely and prepare to supplement with probiotics or MFO etc. We do keep a bottle of CMPK injectable on hand for emergencies, but have yet to need to open it.

IndyGardenGal · #25 03/12/12, 09:26 PM

As it was already said, I don't know that the feed program was the issue. Had you run a fecal wormed her recently? Do you copper bolus? If we have an idea of what your basic management was, it may give us better insight to what caused the issue.

Ranger · #26 03/12/12, 09:32 PM

As has already been said, you tried to do the best that you could for her. Sometimes things like this just happen anyway. Please let yourself off the hook, and know that we can't always save them no matter what we do. hugs

Alice In TX/MO · #27 03/12/12, 09:33 PM

I'm just going to throw this out.... too high protein is getting to be a problem in some herds that I know of. Unlimited alfalfa helps with the calcium, but may be causing an overdose of protein and problems.

There are other ways to feed calcium.

eclipchic · #28 03/12/12, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

I'm just going to throw this out.... too high protein is getting to be a problem in some herds that I know of. Unlimited alfalfa helps with the calcium, but may be causing an overdose of protein and problems.

There are other ways to feed calcium.

what's a better way if you don't mind me asking?

eclipchic · #29 03/12/12, 11:03 PM

she was bolused and wormed in October just before breeding, she wasn't showing obvious signs of copper problems but I wouldn't completely rule it out either. We do have very hard rusty water, but it looked like the very cold water wasn't as rusty as the summer warmer water was so i don't know how much role that actually plays. She had her CD/T and BoSe at the same time and was given CD/T again a couple weeks back to try to pass some immunity to the kids.....it was something I had heard from another breeder.

I'm not so much trying to beat myself up on this, but I certainly want to know better so when we bring home does again I can better prevent this from happening.

The weird thing was I called the breeder we bought her from, she wasn't off her feed really....she was eating quite well that morning up until around noon ish she was happy to eat her ration and hay. The only thing that was really off was her temp at 100, but we checked her penmate and he had a similar low temp so we wrote it off to bad technique or bad thermometer. She was still limping at that time but starting to put weight on it. When I went back down at 4pm she was down, moaning, straining to pass fluid. She didn't appear to be in labor but the fluid was amniotic so maybe she was in early stages. When the vet finally arrived he called the dx as toxemic and we started pumping her full of meds. By 9pm she was dead and cold.

When I looked up symptoms for toxemia, she really didn't meet many of them. Maybe the dx was wrong, I really don't know

Alice In TX/MO · #30 03/13/12, 03:24 AM

Another way to feed goats and have the calcium level high enough without overloading them with protein is to feed:

good grass hay
browse if possible
enough dairy goat ration to keep them in good flesh
top dress dairy goat ration with calcium carbonate / dolomite
good loose mineral

The result, as I understand, is less edema, fewer over sized kids, a reduced chance of hypocalcemia / toxemia / ketosis, and a longer lived, healthier animal.

I realize this may cause a firestorm of outrage, as the conventional wisdom has been to free feed alfalfa. However, the frequent problems seem to call for looking at what we (goat folks) are doing in an attempt to address one issue (calcium consumption) that may be causing harm in the long run (over feeding of protein.)

I'm not offering this as a recommendation that anyone change a feeding program if what you are doing now works for you. I haven't had a chance to talk to my lactation consultant vet about citing research to support cutting back on alfalfa/protein, but it is his belief from decades of professional experience that excessively high protein is, in the long term, damaging to lactating livestock. A couple of us have been pulling the threads of this information together. It's a work in progress.

steff bugielski · #31 03/13/12, 05:40 AM

I am of the school of thought that no dairy animal gets alfalfa until she is milking.
I do not feed alfalfa here at all.
My hay is excellent but not alfalfa. The only time I had a problem with milk fever is when I switched to alfalfa pellets.
6 out of 8 does this year kidded with triplets, milk between 6-9lbs every morning all with no alfalfa.
They are not even pure blood anything.

I look at what an animal in nature eats. A deer does not get any alfalfa in nature, she gives birth to twin almost always. She provides enough milk for them. It is only when we want her to produce more should we even consider alfalfa.

eclipchic · #32 03/13/12, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

Another way to feed goats and have the calcium level high enough without overloading them with protein is to feed:

good grass hay
browse if possible
enough dairy goat ration to keep them in good flesh
top dress dairy goat ration with calcium carbonate / dolomite
good loose mineral

The result, as I understand, is less edema, fewer over sized kids, a reduced chance of hypocalcemia / toxemia / ketosis, and a longer lived, healthier animal.

I realize this may cause a firestorm of outrage, as the conventional wisdom has been to free feed alfalfa. However, the frequent problems seem to call for looking at what we (goat folks) are doing in an attempt to address one issue (calcium consumption) that may be causing harm in the long run (over feeding of protein.)

I'm not offering this as a recommendation that anyone change a feeding program if what you are doing now works for you. I haven't had a chance to talk to my lactation consultant vet about citing research to support cutting back on alfalfa/protein, but it is his belief from decades of professional experience that excessively high protein is, in the long term, damaging to lactating livestock. A couple of us have been pulling the threads of this information together. It's a work in progress.

Thank you. I think it's worth considering. I didn't even realize that dolomite was edible

eclipchic · #33 03/13/12, 10:46 AM

The hay is our field, so it is what it is until we tear it up someday and replant it. I don't mind the idea one bit of dropping the alfalfa pellets considering that it's one of our most expensive inputs.

eclipchic · #34 03/13/12, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steff bugielski

I am of the school of thought that no dairy animal gets alfalfa until she is milking.
I do not feed alfalfa here at all.
My hay is excellent but not alfalfa. The only time I had a problem with milk fever is when I switched to alfalfa pellets.
6 out of 8 does this year kidded with triplets, milk between 6-9lbs every morning all with no alfalfa.
They are not even pure blood anything.

I look at what an animal in nature eats. A deer does not get any alfalfa in nature, she gives birth to twin almost always. She provides enough milk for them. It is only when we want her to produce more should we even consider alfalfa.

Do you know what your hay blend is? We have our field here at the house and another on our 9 acre lot, they both have different grass/legume profiles....they are both part alfalfa though

Oat Bucket Farm · #35 03/13/12, 11:08 AM

I think trying to compare the nutritional needs of a domesticated dairy goat to a wild deer is like comparing apples to oranges.

A wild deer is not expected to produce a gallon or more of milk every day for ten months. Further more, deer have miles and miles of browse open to them and in this day an age, that includes fields of oats, wheat, alfalfa, corn, etc, in addition to wild plants and trees chosen by them based on what they need. If your goats have miles and miles of that and you only expect them to raise one or two babies and produce nothing extra, then fine. You also have no idea of knowing how many deer lose their babies, or died of metabolic issues, or any of that.

A domesticated dairy animal, bred to give birth to multiples and produce milk well above and beyond that of what her babies need, is not a nature made animal. The keeping of livestock in pens of any kind is not natural. A herd running with a dog to protect them is not natural, that is genetics selected and bred for by man. Bo-Se shots, loose minerals, baking soda, and any kind of grain mix, is not natural. Where do you draw the line?

If you need to reduce protein, cut back on 16% dairy parlor food, feed whole oats which are lower in protein and don't make the rumen acidic, keep molasses feeds away which can also make the rumen acidic, feed some beet pulp which has almost as many calories as whole oats but digests like a forage. But don't take away their calcium.

prairiedog · #36 03/13/12, 11:20 AM

Ditto what Oat Bucket said.

Hank · #37 03/13/12, 11:32 AM

We sometime try to make a "pasture animal" out of our goats. Unlike cows, horses, sheep etc. goats are browers not grazers. I have very little grass on my farm, but my goats have plenty of woods and scrubs to "graze" on and they are fat, LOL.Goats can and will live on grass if that is all they have but if you have access to "woods" they will be happier and healther. You just can't medicate all those things they get naturally from what God provides. IMHO.
I am one who believes that less is better. I feed Purina Noble Goat,loose mineral and baking soda are freechoice(and my goats very seldom take any). I only feed hay when the goats are shut up (as now during kidding). I use no meds except as a last resort (on myself as well, LOL). I seldom worm, I think this keeps the animal from building it's own natural resistance.The same with other meds. This "less is more" idea came from my Grandfather to my Father and on to me. It's the way we have raised all of our farm stock and it has worked well for us. I am not telling anyone else to "Do it this way" or even that this is the "right way", just providing another point of view. As someone said ,"Their is no right way or wrong way, just your way and my way." .

Hank
www.doublemfarmandchuckwagon.webs.com

Oat Bucket Farm · #38 03/13/12, 12:00 PM

What kind of area you have for them will definitely play a role in what kind of feed they need. My goats are dry lotted due to space, but even if I had a few acres out here, trees are not abundant. So I have to compensate for that.

There are as many different way to feed goats as there are people who own them. All you can d,o is do your best to cover all of the basis of what they need after taking into consideration what you have available to them in regards to forage and such.

Hollowdweller · #39 03/13/12, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steff bugielski

6 out of 8 does this year kidded with triplets, milk between 6-9lbs every morning all with no alfalfa.

I look at what an animal in nature eats. A deer does not get any alfalfa in nature, she gives birth to twin almost always. She provides enough milk for them. It is only when we want her to produce more should we even consider alfalfa.

Yeah a goat that is only milking 9 lbs doesn't need alfalfa unless it's a very tiny goat.

A goat that only milks 8 to 10 lbs should be able to do fine on goat feed and grass hay. Really even up to 12.

I find on the ones milking 16 or above they are running a bit finer line metabolically speaking and need high quality forage.

eclipchic · #40 03/13/12, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollowdweller

Yeah a goat that is only milking 9 lbs doesn't need alfalfa unless it's a very tiny goat.

A goat that only milks 8 to 10 lbs should be able to do fine on goat feed and grass hay. Really even up to 12.

I find on the ones milking 16 or above they are running a bit finer line metabolically speaking and need high quality forage.

Thats good to note. Although Kissee wasn't really a heavy milker so it could be that she was getting to rich a diet. I'm not really interested in a super heavy milker though.