Goats with horns

creeklady2000 · #21 02/29/12, 06:05 AM

I also do not dehorn , i cannot stand the thought of burning them it makes my skin crawl that being said i have been injured buy a pygmy buck about 10 years ago i was stabbed in my palm and off to the emergency room i went several stitches later and a very painful recovery i still have a nice scar , but i still will not dehorn , i do not have bad thought's with people that due just not something we choose to do , yes you have to be very careful , and yes things still do happen , but as Caliann said all animals come with hooves,teeth and so forth , It is a matter of personal opinion and how you deal with it.

Backfourty,MI. · #22 02/29/12, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

~shrugs~ I've been cut by hooves, had my lip busted by heads, and yes, I was even bruised once by a horn (very young buck wanted to cuddle, and it poked my arm. Didn't cut or anything, just left a bruise.).

I do not leave my grandchildren with the goats unsupervised.

On the other side, I have been stepped on by horses, I have had two broken bones from horses, both an arm and a leg (neither one actually MY horses fault), I have been kicked and bitten.

I have been kicked by cows, slammed by cows. I once worked as a vet assistant (many, many moons ago, buffalo cross Great Plains), so I have bitten by dogs, and bitten and scratched by cats.

I do not cut the hooves off of cattle, I don't pull the hooves off of horses or pull their teeth out. I do not pull the teeth out of dogs or cats. I do not de-claw cats.

I do not wrap my animals in foam to make sure that no unexpected action of theirs does not harm me.

If you believe the risk of animals to you or your descendants is too great, don't have animals.

Mutilating them to make yourself feel safer is just as disgusting whether you are de-clawing a cat or disbudding a goat.

If you believe that the danger posed by horses, dogs, or whatever is fine without any need to mutilate them, but think it is okay to mutilate a goat to make them "safer", then you are a hypocrite.

This is my opinion. I do not, of course, have any control over what you do to your animals. Nor do I feel any need to elaborate on it, or get personal and start calling people out individually on their management practices.

You want safe? Go hide in a closet....the world is not a safe place.

I also agree, Sorry Alice but although I do have some that are disbudded(I bought them that way) & a doe that's naturally polled. I do prefer my goats with horns the all natural way.

I am sorry you got hurt by the bucks horns Pretty Paisley but bending over a goats Brick hard head & it raising it's head will bust your lip, nose, etc. just as Quick as a horn will.

Alice In TX/MO · #23 02/29/12, 08:10 AM

I don't, but you guys know that, and I'm not going to blather on about it.

The halters don't stay on due to ears and horns, folks. A properly fitted halter will stay on a LaMancha. But.... I rarely use halters. My goats have the breakaway plastic chains.

Sherry in Iowa · #24 02/29/12, 08:26 AM

Our bucks have all been horned and our does had a majority of horned girls. Oddly enough..the two head girls were both dehorned before I got them. One Saanen and one Nubian. Ora, who just died, was OLD and did not have horns. They all ran/run together. If I ever have a horned animal that purposely uses their horns to harm another animal..They would be gone..dead..done. This does NOT include using them on stray dogs or coyotes!

I'm really sorry that you got smacked..ouch and double ouch. Know how you feel..I have been hit by a few sows that left me seeing stars..and gave me cracked ribs. It's just part of having animals.

We don't dehorn here. We don't let visiting kids in with the livestock. I never trust a male animal sporting all of his equipment. Hormones take over and the most loved and trusted buck, boar, stud or bull can and will kill you in a heartbeat. They aren't thinking about you when hormones hit..they are sinlge minded at that moment.

I hope you heal quickly. The debate on horns versus no horns is the same for Dexter cattle and goats. My advice? ANY animal..no matter if it's horned or not has to be respected..has to have it's personal space..especially when eating or breeding.

PrettyPaisley · #25 02/29/12, 08:39 AM

I promise I wasn't trying to stir the pot. I really just wanted sympathy for my fat lip.

Who knows? As I get older I've learned to never say never. I may decide, as my kids gets older, and as I get muuuch older, disbudding isn't for us. I still have lots and lots to learn...having only been in this 2 years. There are plenty of things I've done a 90 turn on in the past couple of years. Heck, I used to think all baby boys *had* to be circumsized. Wondering out loud here ... how many goats folks refuse to mutilate their animals but offered their sons up for mutilation?

mary,tx · #26 02/29/12, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mysticklobo

Horns may be natural, but so is polled and that is the way I'm going on my herd. I lucked into a polled doe when I started with my Nigoras and kept a polled buck out of her. He is my herdsire and I LOVE not having to worry about horns or disbudding.
.

You maybe know this, but assuming the doe and the buck are heterozygous for the gene, 1/4 of their offspring will still be horned. So you still need to look for the swirls.

Alice In TX/MO · #27 02/29/12, 09:26 AM

I'm sorry for your lip. What a blessing it wasn't your teeth!!! I've had broken front teeth from a bicycle fall. NOT an enjoyable experience.

How's the swelling?

Backfourty,MI. · #28 02/29/12, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

I don't, but you guys know that, and I'm not going to blather on about it.

You know we Love & respect you though Alice!

thaiblue12 · #29 02/29/12, 09:51 AM

I mutilated my son

My Uncle had to be circumcized late in life due to the foreskin tightening and no longer retracting and it was awful for him. I also burn my goats heads, well I do not personally I pay a guy while I sit in my car and listen to music. I hate disbudding but I sell to my market and people here for 4H, the goat shows, and etc will not buy goats with horns. A few kids were not disbudded and it was so hard for me to sell them. They went "half price" or else they would still be here.

My first goats had horns, the two sisters got into when in heat and one doe ended up with half a horn, bleeding and felt miserable. Another time one got her horns wrapped up in something, I forget it was over 4 yrrs ago, she had to be nosy and got herself stuck.

I am not scared of horns nor have I have been hit by them. I have gotten poked in the butt while doing hooves by them. I have been hit in the face by a flying goat, bitten, licked, stepped on, and more horned or not.

Pixie had some long wicked looking horns but she was not aggressive. She would however when in heat get her head stuck in the buck pen. I would try to catch it the day she went into heat and sometimes I would find out when I would hear her yelling and her head caught. I would pvc pipe her horns until her heat was over. But her pulling her head and trying to free herself may very well have caused her death, the vet said that the vagal? nerve that runs along their necks was possibly damaged and caused her ulcer which caused her to eat sand and get an infection. She despite vet treatment and meds died. I also have many areas where I had to cut the cattle panel to free her. Also when they are stuck some goats like to come along and butt them for the fun of it.

So it has nothing to do with my safety, but more theirs and no they are not going to win against a coyote or a dog 90% of the time horned or not. They are prey- horns or not and they will run most of the time, if they face them off and try to hit them they will still probably get eaten. Mine are raised with LGD that they do hit but have a stray dog or coyote here and they will snort and run to the barn. They are killed and eaten just as fast as a disbudded goat, horns would not lull me into a false sense of security against predators.

My one buck is polled I still get horned kids. I do like that some do not have to be burned. But I also worry that I may get a hermie. Polled does not mean that all kids will be polled. Their is a dominate poll and I forget the name, a weaker one, either way you still will get kids with horns.

I say to each his own, I disbud mine, not out of fear of horns. Others do not because they like it "natural". That's fine we each do what we are comfortable with. I have had good and bad experience with horns and they do make good handles but I will have them burned for 15 seconds to ensure they go to good homes instead of being used for goat tying, stuck with me because everyone is told dairy goats should not have horns or selling them super cheap.
They are over it faster then I am, an hour later they are out there head butting and running around and I still feel bad and queasy.

susanne · #30 02/29/12, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

~shrugs~ I've been cut by hooves, had my lip busted by heads, and yes, I was even bruised once by a horn (very young buck wanted to cuddle, and it poked my arm. Didn't cut or anything, just left a bruise.).

I do not leave my grandchildren with the goats unsupervised.

On the other side, I have been stepped on by horses, I have had two broken bones from horses, both an arm and a leg (neither one actually MY horses fault), I have been kicked and bitten.

I have been kicked by cows, slammed by cows. I once worked as a vet assistant (many, many moons ago, buffalo cross Great Plains), so I have bitten by dogs, and bitten and scratched by cats.

I do not cut the hooves off of cattle, I don't pull the hooves off of horses or pull their teeth out. I do not pull the teeth out of dogs or cats. I do not de-claw cats.

I do not wrap my animals in foam to make sure that no unexpected action of theirs does not harm me.

If you believe the risk of animals to you or your descendants is too great, don't have animals.

Mutilating them to make yourself feel safer is just as disgusting whether you are de-clawing a cat or disbudding a goat.

If you believe that the danger posed by horses, dogs, or whatever is fine without any need to mutilate them, but think it is okay to mutilate a goat to make them "safer", then you are a hypocrite.

This is my opinion. I do not, of course, have any control over what you do to your animals. Nor do I feel any need to elaborate on it, or get personal and start calling people out individually on their management practices.

You want safe? Go hide in a closet....the world is not a safe place.

looooove your post

TriWinkle · #31 02/29/12, 10:17 AM

Wow, who knew this was such a controversial issue...?!

Suzyq2u · #32 02/29/12, 10:31 AM

Ouch, how's the lip today?

We have one with horns (star) who sports tennis balls.
I was all for 'natural' goats, was that until we had a fire, star got
spooked and gored one of our little bucklings. They were in tight
quarters they don't normally go in, to try to keep them away. We
had cut down a tree for them that day so he was very full. May
have been fixable had we known more at the time and had the proper
equipment (think now we could), but we had to put him down. What a
waste that 15 seconds of pain could have prevented.
I also can't tell you the # of times I've taken that dad-gum goat's head
out of the field fence.
If we didn't disbud these new kids coming, I'd worry someone we may sell
them to would have field fence, get stuck and no one notice for sometime.
What an awful way to go. SO, we've been swayed. But I totally understand
leaving them intact, they are beautiful.

TroutRiver · #33 02/29/12, 11:39 AM

Hmm. This is such an interesting issue, I'm glad that we can have healthy debate here and not get down each others throats about it. Everybody ultimately will manage their animals the way they think is best, I only ask that they think about it, and not just go with the status quo.

After my doe's udder injury last week, I was really on the fence about horns. My boyfriend and I had decided beyond a doubt that we would not be disbudding any kids, and we would be transitioning to an all horned herd (only have 3 without horns right now). When I woke up to find one of my hornless does' udder torn open, I had some serious second thoughts.

Aside from the fact that her injury *may or may not* have been caused by a horn (there is no proof either way and there never will be), injuries happen, no matter what you do or don't do. If it's not this, it'll be something else, maybe a dog bite or parasites or a piece of 50 year old barbed wire that you never knew was there, or one of the hundreds of other problems that can't always be avoided, no matter what you do. I had some time to calm down and think about it and talk about it, and I think that looking to the long-term, having natural horned animals is so much more in line with our beliefs and where we want to be going. Injured soon-to-be-mama is recovering well, BTW

I definitely agree with the statement that working around horned animals is harder and more dangerous if you are used to working around animals without horns. I work with a herd of horned beef cattle, and it doesn't bother me at all, I have never been injured or had a close call with their horns (*knock on wood*) but we've had people come to the farm who have not worked with horned cattle before, and they are very uncomfortable getting close to the beef herd.

mary,tx · #34 02/29/12, 12:54 PM

Two of my first four does were horned. The seller was one who did not believe in disbudding, but because he had a polled buck, we soon had polled goats sharing the barn with horned goats. Not a good arrangement. The horned goats knew they had horns and the others didn't, and always beat up on the hornless ones. They were okay in the field, but had to be in separate areas in the barn.

Also, I did have one of those beautiful horned goats to butt my little daughter up against the barn wall one day. That's when I learned they couldn't be trusted, and I became much more careful.

When we moved across country and could only take a few goats with us, it made sense to not take the horned ones. I knew they could not be on the trailer with polled goats.

I much prefer the polled, and don't feel guilty at all about disbudding the little horned ones.

Oat Bucket Farm · #35 02/29/12, 02:12 PM

As far as having horns or ears to get hold of the goat by, we have LaManchas and we don't have horns here, so we use collars. We have regular dog collars that stay clipped to the leashes. When we need a goat, we grab a collar with its leash out of the barn and go clip it on the goat and lead them where ever we need them to go. Even back when we had Nubians, we never used their ears to as a handle and many moons ago, when we had two horned pygmy bucks, we never used their horns as handles.

I don't use goat halters at all, but we treat the collars just like we treated horse halters when we had horses. The collars stay off unless we need to lead the goat somewhere. All of our goats are nice and tame so getting hold of them isn't a problem. Sometimes getting hold of only one is a problem though,lol

PrettyPaisley · #36 02/29/12, 06:57 PM

It looks like I might survive.

I have never been punched in the face but this will ensure I'm never in a bar fight. Other than an awful looking scab the lip is getting back to normal size. Thanks for letting me complain.

I do so respect all you guys-had it not been for you I would have never gotten into goats, which have turned out to be one of the most rewarding things I've done in my life. Yeah-I love the human kids, but boy do I love these goats. As I said, I wasn't looking to start a debate...just wanted some lovin' for my sore lip. Thanks for the well wishes and sympathy. <3

Minelson · #37 02/29/12, 07:05 PM

(((((lip))))))))

Oat Bucket Farm · #38 02/29/12, 07:33 PM

I'm glad your lip is getting back to proper size now. I hope the split part heals quick for you.

CaliannG · #39 02/29/12, 11:02 PM

~hugs on the lip~ I am glad you are healing up. Sorta gives you an extra reason to practice non-violence in bars, huh?

Sorry it turned into a debate, Shannon. I think everyone on any side is a bit touchy as it is kidding season, and therefore disbudding season, and therefore newbie disbudding problem season.

Those on the one side are touchy because no-one LIKES to disbud, so they are sensitive over their choices and defending them. Those on the other side are sensitive because even if one avoids the threads with "disbudding" in the title, it is going to come up on other threads, or it will be a title that doesn't warn one.

Tis, basically, the season for The Great Horn Debate. Come summer, we can switch over to The Great Disease Testing Debate.

Tons of sympathy sent your way, a banged lip HURTS.

SilverFlame819 · #40 02/29/12, 11:59 PM

I am not afraid of horns. I think nicely-shaped horns can look nice... But every horned goat I've ever had in with my herd quickly realized it had the upper hand, and took to bullying the non-horned girls. I also had a neighbor's young kid (she'd brought him over to "play" with my kids) almost gore one of my does with his spikey baby horns. After a few close calls, he went home, never to return again. And the horned goats ALWAYS seem to get stuck in the fences. So simply for the safety of the entire herd, mine will always be dehorned.

Everyone's got a different opinion... No sense shouting from the rooftops, you won't change anyone's minds.