What Does TYPY Mean with Nubian Goats??

Alice In TX/MO · #21 02/17/12, 01:44 PM

Safety for ME. Safety for my grandchild who already has vision in one eye ONLY.

No horns. Thank you.

copperpennykids · #22 02/17/12, 01:47 PM

I am not debating the safety issue of horns, just the realities...

Does with horns generally don't end up with as good of a life as a doe that has been properly disbudded.

Why? There is less demand for a doe with horns - so a nice doe with horns has fewer people willing to buy her, so she tends to sell for less and generally becomes more disposable than her disbudded counterpart. May seem unfair, but that is just how the world works.

In the registered world, a dairy doe with horns is also not allowed to show - not ADGA, and generally not 4-H. Also reduces the demand for such a doe.

A doe with horns does have an advantage (pushing around the feeder etc) over her disbudded counterparts, so folks who generally have disbudded does in their pastures do not want to add a horned goat to the mix - again reducing demand for the horned goats. Those who have horned goats generally need to keep all of their goats horned - most breeders disbud, so there is a smaller pool of goats to choose from to improve stock etc. So those who want to add more goats/upgrade their herds many times end up getting rid of their horned goats (again at lowered prices) and the horned does end up as a disadvantaged goat.

Sad but true.

Lizza · #23 02/17/12, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

Morningstar, you are NOT helping!

Don't MAKE me pull out my studies and research, and everything that SHOWS that disbudded goats are NO safer than horned goats!

Now....I am stopping.

See ya''ll? I am being goaded into the horn debate, and I am STOPPING. Aren't ya'll proud of me?

Safety for ME, safety for my children who milk the animals, and safety for all the herd mates that that horned goat has! An animal with horns (or bad scurs) knows they have horns and uses it against others, if you haven't observed this, you haven't been around livestock long enough.

One of my daughters almost lost an eye to a horned animal when she was helping milk at a farm that had your same ideas about de-horning (this animal was not being aggressive, just inquisitive). That was the last time I let my kids do farm work at a farm that had horned animals. Dairy animals must be handled several times a day almost year round, safety must come first with any farm work.

In addition to what Copper said, finding decent homes for a horned animal is near impossible, you are basically sentencing that animal to either meat or a sub-par home for the most part, will you find a decent home? Maybe but not likely. Sure, we'd all like to think we will keep all our animals until their natural deaths but life gets in the way of our best laid plans, life is funny like that, forever is a long time. We owe more to our animals then that.

As a side note out 4H does not allow horned dairy animals, let alone any ADGA sanctioned shows.

De-horning takes a maximum of about 12 seconds (literally)....one time in their life...worth it? Yeah, 110%

Ok, stepping off my soap box now.

CaliannG · #24 02/17/12, 03:34 PM

Okay, ya'll have forced it, you realize. So you have no one to blame but yourselves.

First, we are going to talk about emotions and decision making:

Book on how humans make decisions based on emotions. Published in 2001.

Another book on how humans make decisions based on emotion. Published in 2008.

An article citing studies that conclude that once we have made a decision based upon our emotions, our brains will SHUT DOWN and refuse to accept any facts contrary to our chosen beliefs.

I have cited these to show that I don't think I am going to change ANYONE'S mind by stating facts that are contrary to the individual's previously held ideas. These studies and facts I am presenting are only for people who HAVE YET to form an opinion on the subject, and might therefore be able to absorb the science.

First, the history:

A nice article exploring how disbudding came about.

Now, some facts:

There are more miscarrages/abortions in horned herds due to ramming is FALSE.

Disbudding doesn't really hurt, kids are fine a few minutes later is FALSE.

Disbudding kids is safe for the kids is FALSE.

Horned goats require more space in barns, at feeding troughs, and are therefore economically unviable is FALSE.

Disbudding does not violate organic farming practices is FALSE.

Disbudded/dehorned goats get along better than horned goats is FALSE.

There are fewer goat injuries in hornless herds than in horned herd is FALSE. In fact, the opposite was found to be true, disbudded herds had MORE injuries than horned herds.

Disbudding does not affect the trust of the goat in humans is FALSE. Goats remember that you hurt them, and that will flavor their interactions with you for their lifetime.

Not having horns does not adversely affect the health of adult goats is FALSE. Hornless goats still head butt, and without horns as shock absorbers, injury and death can occur.

Goats with horns will die in fences is *PARTIALLY FALSE*.

(The results of this paper that ONLY the 6" mesh wire constitutes a danger to horned goats. 3" mesh wire, 10" mesh wire, smooth or barbed wire strands, wire and electric fence combinations, electric fences, etc., posed no problems for horned goats.)

On horned goats being destructive to facilities, barns, etc.: I haven't been able to find information on this. There are no articles, studies, advice on how to prevent meat goats, cashmere goats, angora goats, European dairy herds from destroying facilities, barns, etc., with their horns. There are no mentions in management articles or cost ratios about this being a problem.

I found ONE mention in a 80's Australian study on different types of fencing that cashmere goats caused more holes in a certain type of fencing than either angora goats or merino sheep. That was it.

I did find that fiber goats are NOT disbudded because sheering stanchions and handlers use the horns to control the goat. (Much like I do.)

Lastly, I found a management article that keyhole feeding/milking stanchions are not suitable for horned dairy goats, and that one should slide stanchions instead.

Horns cause a significant increase in injuries to goat handlers is FALSE.

European insurance companies disagree with this premise, and they have money at stake.

I can provide a LOT more studies with the same conclusions. I have not been able to find studies with opposite conclusions, and I DID look.

This is why I state that disbudding/dehorning goats is due to fashion and fad. The *safety* factors that people like to state to rationalize burning holes in baby goat heads are patently FALSE and have NO scientific substansiation.

One could make the argument that a particular nasty-tempered, ill-mannered, goat would cause MORE injury with horns.... but nasty tempered, ill-mannered goats don't belong in ANYONE'S breeding program...they belong in freezers. Temperament is inheritable, and propogating bad tempers (no matter what other attributes might be desirable) is irresponsible in any domestic animal.

Alice, my 3 year old granddaughter plays with the goats. She has been taught what to do and what not to do. She does NOT play with goats unsupervised because NO small child should be left unsupervised.

The 4-H in my area allows horned goats. Most of the breeders in my area do not go to goat shows with their animals (all those icky cooties at shows!) and instead do LA, which allows horned goats.

The "sub-par homes" part is, I think, an excuse ... it was an excuse used with dogs, cats and horses too. If you do not butcher your puppy's ears and tail, they will end up in un-loving, sub-par homes. If you do not amputate your kitten's toes, they will end up in un-loving, sub-par homes. The argument was even made about docking horses tails at one time. If you didn't cut off the horse's tail (and make the horse miserable throughout its entire life), then no *fashionable* or *well-to-do* person would want it, and it would end up in the slaughterhouse.

We no longer accept these excuses for mutilating horses...or cats ... or dogs. I see no reason to accept them for goats.

CaliannG · #25 02/17/12, 03:35 PM

Double-posted.

LoneStrChic23 · #26 02/17/12, 03:48 PM

I'm not hopping on the disbudding/horns debate. I don't keep horned animals for many reasons, so I wouldn't buy that doe.

Horns or no, I wouldn't buy that doe. She looks small for her age. You can do better.... Like Natural Beauty posted, contact Kathy. Nice animals, & I agree she prices way too low. Start with the best you can afford, from a clean, tested herd & you'll be happy

vpierce · #27 02/17/12, 07:38 PM

Wow, thanks for all the info. At least I had a good laugh at some of it. I have thought about it ALL NIGHT. I don't get that feeling for this Doe like I did With my Buckling Excalibur. I even drove all the way to Kalispell for him. He doesn't look like a baby anymore and he is only 10 months old 115lbs. Comparing him to Rosie I can see a BIG difference. I am not going to go for it. I will shop around.

CREAMERS- You are all sold out for 2012 Kids. Love the Does. Awesome colors.

I Had a problem with our bottle baby Isis, she still has her horns and so does her sister. Isis was a problem child since birth. She had her head stuck in the fence, not sure how long it was/ Had to be HOURS. She ended up pulling so hard and for so long she had a knot in her neck from pulling. Now that I decided to Put hot wire down low, I have not had problems. So burning their horns is not that big a deal for me.

I really enjoyed hearing everyone's opinion on that topic.

There is a lady up in Kalispell that just had babies. When I went and Picked up Excalibur, from Lost Prairie Farm, My friend picked up a buckling from there friend. Nice looking boy. I am hoping to get some pictures of this doeling she has. I am Purchasing a Boer Doeling From Lost Prairie again out of Turbo Diesel to Breed to Excalibur and so at the same time I am Hoping to have a doeling I can pick up in that same area.

Thanks for the help on this matter. I feel a little better now.

Creamers · #28 02/18/12, 01:19 AM

I have to say - for those wondering about disbudded verses horned goats because they haven't, unlike most of us, decided one way or the other

. . . they will find studies are quickly discarded and moot if they point in a direction contrary to personal events, facts and experiences. . .

I've both horned and disbudded, I soon realized way back when I had both, why people usually prefer disbudded goats. . .

I started with horned, then had a mixed herd, then had all disbudded and now do have a few with horns because of the genetics they brought -

Would I EVER, EVER consider leaving one with horns under any circumstances?

. . . Never. . . ever.

One can argue it until blue in the face on either side once they have their minds made up - but having had both - and for me, disbudded is the ONLY way to go in my herd, and despite being a 14 year vegetarian, former vegan, and director of a horse rescue group. . . I do not find disbudding inhumane in the least.

CaliannG · #29 02/18/12, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creamers

One can argue it until blue in the face on either side once they have their minds made up - but having had both - and for me, disbudded is the ONLY way to go in my herd, and despite being a 14 year vegetarian, former vegan, and director of a horse rescue group. . . I do not find disbudding inhumane in the least.

I think I covered that in the first three links.

Oh, and I don't think being a vegetarian, a former vegan, and a director of any rescue group, automatically makes a person an expert on what is or is not humane. After all, what about those PETA scandals involving inhumanely killing dogs and cats and then dumping their bodies? Those folks were vegans and headed rescues also...it did not make them treat those dogs and cats any better.

It is not that I think YOU would do such horrid things to dogs and cats, Creamers, it is just that you tend to tout your vegetarianism as proof that you are an authority on what is humane treatment....yet you still do what I consider inhumane things. Those PETA people thought they were being humane too, even though their methods are what I would consider barbaric.

vpierce · #30 02/18/12, 07:34 AM

Does Kathy have a website??

vpierce · #31 02/18/12, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

Okay, ya'll have forced it, you realize. So you have no one to blame but yourselves.

First, we are going to talk about emotions and decision making:

Book on how humans make decisions based on emotions. Published in 2001.

Another book on how humans make decisions based on emotion. Published in 2008.

An article citing studies that conclude that once we have made a decision based upon our emotions, our brains will SHUT DOWN and refuse to accept any facts contrary to our chosen beliefs.

I have cited these to show that I don't think I am going to change ANYONE'S mind by stating facts that are contrary to the individual's previously held ideas. These studies and facts I am presenting are only for people who HAVE YET to form an opinion on the subject, and might therefore be able to absorb the science.

First, the history:

A nice article exploring how disbudding came about.

Now, some facts:

There are more miscarrages/abortions in horned herds due to ramming is FALSE.

Disbudding doesn't really hurt, kids are fine a few minutes later is FALSE.

Disbudding kids is safe for the kids is FALSE.

Horned goats require more space in barns, at feeding troughs, and are therefore economically unviable is FALSE.

Disbudding does not violate organic farming practices is FALSE.

Disbudded/dehorned goats get along better than horned goats is FALSE.

There are fewer goat injuries in hornless herds than in horned herd is FALSE. In fact, the opposite was found to be true, disbudded herds had MORE injuries than horned herds.

Disbudding does not affect the trust of the goat in humans is FALSE. Goats remember that you hurt them, and that will flavor their interactions with you for their lifetime.

Not having horns does not adversely affect the health of adult goats is FALSE. Hornless goats still head butt, and without horns as shock absorbers, injury and death can occur.

Goats with horns will die in fences is *PARTIALLY FALSE*.

(The results of this paper that ONLY the 6" mesh wire constitutes a danger to horned goats. 3" mesh wire, 10" mesh wire, smooth or barbed wire strands, wire and electric fence combinations, electric fences, etc., posed no problems for horned goats.)

On horned goats being destructive to facilities, barns, etc.: I haven't been able to find information on this. There are no articles, studies, advice on how to prevent meat goats, cashmere goats, angora goats, European dairy herds from destroying facilities, barns, etc., with their horns. There are no mentions in management articles or cost ratios about this being a problem.

I found ONE mention in a 80's Australian study on different types of fencing that cashmere goats caused more holes in a certain type of fencing than either angora goats or merino sheep. That was it.

I did find that fiber goats are NOT disbudded because sheering stanchions and handlers use the horns to control the goat. (Much like I do.)

Lastly, I found a management article that keyhole feeding/milking stanchions are not suitable for horned dairy goats, and that one should slide stanchions instead.

Horns cause a significant increase in injuries to goat handlers is FALSE.

European insurance companies disagree with this premise, and they have money at stake.

I can provide a LOT more studies with the same conclusions. I have not been able to find studies with opposite conclusions, and I DID look.

This is why I state that disbudding/dehorning goats is due to fashion and fad. The *safety* factors that people like to state to rationalize burning holes in baby goat heads are patently FALSE and have NO scientific substansiation.

One could make the argument that a particular nasty-tempered, ill-mannered, goat would cause MORE injury with horns.... but nasty tempered, ill-mannered goats don't belong in ANYONE'S breeding program...they belong in freezers. Temperament is inheritable, and propogating bad tempers (no matter what other attributes might be desirable) is irresponsible in any domestic animal.

Alice, my 3 year old granddaughter plays with the goats. She has been taught what to do and what not to do. She does NOT play with goats unsupervised because NO small child should be left unsupervised.

The 4-H in my area allows horned goats. Most of the breeders in my area do not go to goat shows with their animals (all those icky cooties at shows!) and instead do LA, which allows horned goats.

The "sub-par homes" part is, I think, an excuse ... it was an excuse used with dogs, cats and horses too. If you do not butcher your puppy's ears and tail, they will end up in un-loving, sub-par homes. If you do not amputate your kitten's toes, they will end up in un-loving, sub-par homes. The argument was even made about docking horses tails at one time. If you didn't cut off the horse's tail (and make the horse miserable throughout its entire life), then no *fashionable* or *well-to-do* person would want it, and it would end up in the slaughterhouse.

We no longer accept these excuses for mutilating horses...or cats ... or dogs. I see no reason to accept them for goats.

I am loving some of these articles you put here. Thank you so much.

LoneStrChic23 · #32 02/18/12, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vpierce

Does Kathy have a website??

I don't know, but I found her email from another forum she is on & I will PM you

wintrrwolf · #33 02/18/12, 06:56 PM

Wow lol ok horns aside...
To me her head/face looks heavier then my nubian doe Pawnee. Ears are looong yes, roman nose yes, but body type seems more meaty then dairy. But I could just be spoiled with my 2 pb nubi's who both seem to be like ballerina dancers compared to saanen and alpine dairy goats.

CaliannG · #34 02/18/12, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wintrrwolf

But I could just be spoiled with my 2 pb nubi's who both seem to be like ballerina dancers compared to saanen and alpine dairy goats.

Once it stops raining, I will be able to take pictures of Bamboo....

...and because of this, I will also take pictures of my Alder (buck) and Lulu (doe), both of which look like sweet, graceful antelope.

LoneStrChic23 · #35 02/18/12, 11:44 PM

lol And here I always thought my Alpines were graceful looking, like Arabians, while the Nubians I've encountered reminded me more of a heavy draft horse... But then again I'm not a fan of roman noses, be it dog, goat, or horse

I do, however adore the Nubian ears! Every time I see Nubian kids, I'm so tempted to get one....

Ford Zoo · #36 02/19/12, 12:31 AM

I'm not familiar with Nubians, and I'm new to boers, but I think that head and extra long ears look boer. However that wouldn't explain her small stature.

LoneStrChic23 · #37 02/19/12, 12:48 AM

Small stature is likely a management issue.... Perhaps they weaned too early, didn't deworm properly or didn't use coccidia prevention.... Never know.

JBarGFarmKeeper · #38 02/19/12, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneStrChic23

Small stature is likely a management issue.... Perhaps they weaned too early, didn't deworm properly or didn't use coccidia prevention.... Never know.

Ditto

TroutRiver · #39 02/20/12, 10:04 AM

Yes, remember, boers have roman noses and long ears, too. So these traits do NOT mean that she is pure nubian, I think I can see some boer in her, and I agree with others who have said she does not look to be a particularly high quality animal, although the pictures are not very good so it's hard to tell.

Caliann - thanks for those links! I am leaning toward keeping horns on my goats for their own protection. We lost 2 goats last year that just *dissappeared* from the pasture and were never seen again. Can only assume they were caught and eaten by something, if they had just escaped from the pen, they would have turned up. We had had electric fencing and everything, but that didn't stop whatever it was.

After seeing my dad's angora doe fend off my great dane (who was only curious... and got her butt kicked) I have so much more confidence in horned goats defending themselves against predators. A hornless goat in the woods is defenseless, and I don't want my animals to be defenseless.

My only debate is over the fact that I don't want to be unable to sell them. I am not worried about the safety of horns, I work with horses and horned cattle, a horned goat does not intimidate me, and there are no small kids around my goats.

Freya · #40 02/20/12, 02:00 PM

OP did you decide?