Herbal Wormers?

ThePigeonKid · #21 01/26/12, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Backfourty,MI.

ThePigeonKid, I don't understand why you are quoting my post? My post was directed at Patrick & trying to explain to him why were all here & to play nice!

I agreed with what you said.

Backfourty,MI. · #22 01/26/12, 07:53 PM

I am a little slow tonight I guess!

Pony · #23 01/26/12, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txplowgirl

I was taught that for a horse or a cow about 1 tablespoon of Red Man tobacco once a month so I would say maybe a 3rd of that?

I don't have any experience with goats so take this how you will.

I know our horses growing up and all the horses i've had through the years never had worms of any kind. Maybe it would help with goats. Don't know, just my opinion and what I was taught.

We have neighbors here who also use tobacco for DEwormer.

Lots of folks use pumpkin seed to DEworm rabbits. I give my rabbits pumpkin seed, but mostly b/c they love it. (I like the seeds, too, but I bake mine and season them.)

Some folk remedies are effective. Some aren't.

We all do what we feel is best for our animals.

Pony · #24 01/26/12, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Backfourty,MI.

I am a little slow tonight I guess!

It's okay.

Here. Have a cookie.

And some GOAT MILK!!! YAY!!!!

(i am so jonesin' for my goat milk...)

Backfourty,MI. · #25 01/26/12, 08:02 PM

I have never used the herbal wormers for my goats so I can't say if they work or not but if I decided to try any of them I would do fecals before & then again a few months later to see how they were working.

txplowgirl, I have a friend that her family has a horse farm, only 1 goat that runs all around with the horses all day.
He told me he worms the goat with cigarettes.

Creamers · #26 01/26/12, 10:42 PM

Fecals and goat condition show herbals - including the fiasco farm and hoegger ones - do not work here.

ThePigeonKid · #27 01/26/12, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creamers

Fecals and goat condition show herbals - including the fiasco farm and hoegger ones - do not work here.

Yes, depending on your location - herbs may not work. But in most places they do.

KrisD · #28 01/26/12, 11:37 PM

Thank you Katie and Pony for saying what I was trying get out. Patrick it wasn't the disagreeing that I have a problem with it was the snarkyness. Disagree all you want with me, many people do just be nice about it please.
Creamers I'm sorry they don't work for you there. Being from the south all parasites were a problem. The fleas alone dang near killed me! Maybe because it is cooler here is why they work for me? My goats are in great condition and I am happy, that said I will still do cocci prevention as I am too afraid to try raising kids without. Loosing a kid is heartbreaking and would never take the chance. I will however have my vet continue fecals while on the herbs to make sure that the parasites don't come back.
Good night everyone and thanks again ladies!

steff bugielski · #29 01/27/12, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick

My post was mostly in reference to the above statement, and not to anyone personally, just so no one takes offense, I hope. I'm just confused as to how one could say that switching to a herbal, or any different wormer, can work, when the method used to test the effectiveness is no longer used. One reason could be that the proponent of the new wormer does not want to know. No one can say for sure that it isn't working if there is no fecal test to prove it, one could say. There could be other reasons. Not doing a fecal is not a suspect method of diagnosis, it is no diagnosis. Is that not true? Checking skin and coat or eyelids are unreliable methods of diagnosis. Is that better? All IMO.

And no, I do not believe that herbal or homeopathic remedies work, IMO. I hope that doesn't offend anyone, IMO.

I am not sure how long you have been around livestock or how much time you spend a day with those animals but I can tell you I have had livestock all my life.
I spend an average of 4-6 hours, yes hours , a day with my animals. I can tell by looking at them if they are not feeling well. Like a mom with her child. I feel hips every single day at feeding and know if they are dropping weight in a day or two.

If my goats have a worm load anything other than minimal then the worms are not harming them at all. If they milk this good , look this good , have trips this easy, are frisky and playful,with worms the worms can stay.

I did not say they will work for anyone else, that was not the question. The question was anyone use them and how do they work.
If you do not use them how do you know if they work or not?

I will not say what I really want to because I like being on this forum.

Darren · #30 01/27/12, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygoat

Someone recently was trying to tell me that iridology was something that herbalists/naturalists use Now, I know there are some diseases that can be diagnosed with eye symptoms. BUT, IRIDOLOGY is a freakin' pseudoscience.

I don't look at any methodology as being the epitome of best practice. There are indications that the body manifest to the skilled and educated observer that can reveal much. Over time I've picked up on a few of these. I am not a doctor, herbalist or even close. Still, over time, things have been proven to me.

Several years ago I attended a lecture by a doctor who then taught at a university, It was an eye-opener. Many of the medical practices held as sacrosanct are scientifically unproven. These are things that main stream doctors (MDs) practice, not naturopaths or DOs. No one has a monopoly on truth.

Iridology I look upon as providing a second opinion or a first to be verified. It is a tool that can provide information without invasive procedures. I would verify the results in other ways and not rely on it as a final word.

Medicine took a turn in the early 1900s when it was directed towards allopathy by forces that lobbied Congress. While it is considered conventional medicine now. That was not always the case. The pharmacopeias are evidence of that. In anything extremes to one side or the other loses the benefit of the blend.

Europe has a long standing tradition of using herbals. The German Commission E monologs are evidence. Every efficacious herbal preparation is backed by an extensive bibliography of scientific research.

Allopathic doctors who rely on pharmaceutical companies for much of their continuing education are a problem. They are not the ultimate pinnacle of medical practice although the medical establishment would defend that to the death.

FeminineFarmgir · #31 01/27/12, 02:08 PM

Wow, lots of opinions on wormer and fecal testing!

Thank you to those of you who kindly shared your experience - I've always hesitated to try the herbal wormers, but I have one alpine two year old doe who doesn't respond well to the chemical wormers - so fecal tests here I come (just to clarify, I already do fecal tests) and possibly an herbal wormer or two...and lots more fecal tests.

Thanks again.
Blessings,
Jenna

clothAnnie · #32 01/27/12, 03:00 PM

I also appreciate hearing others' experiences - from herbals both seeming effective and seeming ineffective. I'm hoping goats are in our future and I love the idea of using herbs (I use them for myself) but would definitely want to do fecal tests before and after.

LoneStrChic23 · #33 01/28/12, 12:47 AM

I've been toying with the idea of trying herbals. Not as a sole dewormer, but to see if it really made a difference in parasite loads inbetween my chemical dewormings. Sabrina came to me after 18 months straight with just Molly's Herbals. I was NOT impressed......she was a mess & the fecals proved it.

Her previous home was 50 acres, lots of browse.....My property is much smaller, no browse so I think trying to go strictly herbal, especially with this warm winter we've had (73° today) would be too risky.

I'm toying with the idea of trying Fir Meadows dewormers, fecaling frequently & use my chemicals too...

Perhaps if the herbals do make a difference, I can possibly reduce the frequentcy of chemicals...

No extra play cash right now though so that will have to wait a bit.

steff bugielski · #34 01/28/12, 05:09 AM

I found Molly's ended up costing the same as the chemicals.

I think it is worth the trying. Even if in your area it reduces the frequency of the chemicals.
And don't forget, we assume the milk with holding is less than that of cattle but we do not know for sure since no goat trials have been done. To me if you are using meds meant for cattle, which they are, then you should use the with holding meant for cattle.

http://www.luresext.edu/goats/training/Goatmeds.pdf
http://www.uky.edu/Ag/AnimalSciences...wtimeJan05.pdf

Lazydaisy67 · #35 02/01/12, 08:36 AM

I've used Molly's in the past and, in particular, on a stray dog that decided to visit us. He was pretty rough looking, so I decided to try to get him in top shape before we found a new home for him. I wormed him with the herbal wormer and I have never seen so many worms come out of an animal before!!! It was absolutely disgusting! I went around and picked up all his poop and put it in the burn pile cause it was just so infested. Could a chemical wormer have done the same thing? Sure, but I think in this particular instance his diet and nutrition had been so horrible out in the wilderness alone, that I feel like it was easier on his system to use the natural way.

With the goats I think it's more of a maintenance issue. While the herbal wormer may not be entirely effective to eliminate a heavy worm load you come across, I really do believe that if you maintain those herbs in the system you would have a lower worm load than without. Now, that's just my opinion, so don't jump on me about that. I guess in the end if you have the money to buy both, and you have the time and organization to pull it off, why not do both the herbal and chemical?

Lada · #36 02/01/12, 10:15 AM

I use chemical wormers, but have toyed with the idea of doing natural.

I only use herbs on myself and my children, unless there is something we just CANNOT kick herbally, maybe cancer or something like that...

Herbs and other natural remedies work. Period. No, there is no FDA research to prove it, because there is no money in regulating them (yet) and the government isn't going to invest money in researching something that people can grow in a pot on their porch, which can't be taxed or regulated.

Most modern medicine originated from natural remedies...

southerngurl · #37 02/01/12, 06:34 PM

Been wanting to say more on this topic and hadn't got to it.

When you are talking herbal worming vs chemical, in a way it's apples and oranges. It's not just about the herbs. The herbs are one leg of a total management system. You cannot just take any goat and give it an herbal wormer and have your worm problem taken care of. Everything needs to be taken into consideration. Nutrition (includes keeping foods as forage based as possible, with variety for the goats to choose out in the fields and woods being great if you have it, mineral supplementation with what your goats need, and actually the herbs would fit in here too, they contain nutritiont he animals need for a healthy immune system, plus properties that discourage worms), cleanliness (ending the foot to mouth cycle as much as possible), reduced stress (stress lowers immunity, and immunity is your only true defence for worms, don't be tricked into thinking your wormer gets rid of your worms, all it does is kill most of the adults off so your goats immunity can take care of the rest, a goat without a good immune system would require worming constantly, stress also reduces food consumption and causes poorer digestion). Everything should be about improving your animal's core health and strength. Then you throw in some herbs on top that worms don't like, it kills a few, causes others stress the reduces their reproduction, causes some to leave etc. It helps the immune system.

Now, one might wonder why, why isn't there an herb to just wipe out all the worms in the body? Wouldn't that be nice? Actually, you do NOT want no worms. Parasites, in normal low levels actually have a healthful effect on an animal. It's kind of like how kids who don't get exposed to dirt end up more prone to allergies. Your body is designed to have something to fight, a bad guy. And it keeps things humming along nicely. Everything in the body is about small amounts of stress building strength and preventing stagnation and atrophy. Stress and rest builds the body, just like muscles, bones, joints, etc etc. It's how it's designed to work.

Many people think you can't initially deworm an animal with herbs or get rid of an acute episode with them. I have seen otherwise. I saw two bucklings who were riddled with cocci and barberpole. They had diarrhea, one had lost his appetite, they were pale and I did a fecal and there were worms eggs ALL over that slide. The owner didn't want to use chemicals and when he talked to my grandpa he said he didn't know anything but wormers but maybe I would know something. I told him to bring me a fecal sample. Upon seeing it I was obviously very concerned. I took some serecia lespedeza over there to feed them and see how bad they looked. That's when I found one wouldn't hardly even eat and was grinding his teeth. The other was eating but had diarrhea on his backside (they were littermate brothers).

Anyway, I strongly encouraged him to just give them some corid and quest and he really didn't want to. Finally after going around and around he decided to try what I came up with naturally until the next day and if it didn't work out to give them to my grandpa and we could treat them however (he really didn't want to use the chems!). So I said I would try some garlic granules and slippery elm powder mixed together, a tablespoon about every hour that day, and then back down to every couple of hours. I then took some sericia lespedeza from the side of our dirt road over there and fed them some and told him to feed them some too. They appeared better the next day, diarrhea let up and they were eating good etc. About 10 days later I had him bring me another fecal sample and I was both shocked and delighted to see it clean as a whistle. And that's the difference, when you are in an acute situation, you can't just give one dose of herbs and walk away, it's an every hour or two deal. I've also used herbs successfully on pnuemonia in this manner and coccidia on another doe here recently. In that case I used Fir Meadows GI soother product several times a day. She seems to be doing well now but I haven't fecal ed her.

I believe herbs are extremely effective when used properly. Sadly, with the glitz and glam of the pharmacuetical industry, and their corruption of our FDA, a lot of knowledge has been lost or become hard to find and I think that's why you see people using herbs without success. Because we use them all the time here and they are extremely effective. I've seen people with kidney failure get better and be able to return to work. People with long standing infections that the most dangerous chemical antibiotics were not touching, healed up. My aunt had a shoulder problem that surgery did not help, she could not lift her arm above her shoulder level, after being on some herbs for that for about a month and a half, she suddenly realized her shoulder was ok when she reached for a cabinet door above her head. Never another day's trouble. My sister had a tooth abscess with her cheek sticking way out, herbs took care of that. Mastitis I've cured up multiple times with NO chems. Saw a woman with hashimoto's thyroiditis, an auto immune disease of the thyroid, she was swollen up and yellow practically bed ridden talked extremely slowly, back to normal and functioning (used both herbs and animal based glandulars).

Our bodies were designed to consume and use herbs. They were never designed to take and use man made chemicals.

And people say, well there are no studies.. No and there aren't likely to be any either because no one takes herbs seriously (why? because no one else takes them seriously- plus many mixes the health food stores are weak and worthless) and when they do, the FDA gets their hackles up because :

Quote:

The FD&C Act defines drugs, in part, by their intended use, as "articles intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease"

How silly, I drink water to prevent dehydration and eat citrus fruit to prevent scurvy. How about you?

steff bugielski · #38 02/02/12, 04:43 AM

I can not agree more!!!
Very well said.

"SPIKE" · #39 02/02/12, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southerngurl

Been wanting to say more on this topic and hadn't got to it.

When you are talking herbal worming vs chemical, in a way it's apples and oranges. It's not just about the herbs. The herbs are one leg of a total management system. You cannot just take any goat and give it an herbal wormer and have your worm problem taken care of. Everything needs to be taken into consideration. Nutrition (includes keeping foods as forage based as possible, with variety for the goats to choose out in the fields and woods being great if you have it, mineral supplementation with what your goats need, and actually the herbs would fit in here too, they contain nutritiont he animals need for a healthy immune system, plus properties that discourage worms), cleanliness (ending the foot to mouth cycle as much as possible), reduced stress (stress lowers immunity, and immunity is your only true defence for worms, don't be tricked into thinking your wormer gets rid of your worms, all it does is kill most of the adults off so your goats immunity can take care of the rest, a goat without a good immune system would require worming constantly, stress also reduces food consumption and causes poorer digestion). Everything should be about improving your animal's core health and strength. Then you throw in some herbs on top that worms don't like, it kills a few, causes others stress the reduces their reproduction, causes some to leave etc. It helps the immune system.

Now, one might wonder why, why isn't there an herb to just wipe out all the worms in the body? Wouldn't that be nice? Actually, you do NOT want no worms. Parasites, in normal low levels actually have a healthful effect on an animal. It's kind of like how kids who don't get exposed to dirt end up more prone to allergies. Your body is designed to have something to fight, a bad guy. And it keeps things humming along nicely. Everything in the body is about small amounts of stress building strength and preventing stagnation and atrophy. Stress and rest builds the body, just like muscles, bones, joints, etc etc. It's how it's designed to work.

Many people think you can't initially deworm an animal with herbs or get rid of an acute episode with them. I have seen otherwise. I saw two bucklings who were riddled with cocci and barberpole. They had diarrhea, one had lost his appetite, they were pale and I did a fecal and there were worms eggs ALL over that slide. The owner didn't want to use chemicals and when he talked to my grandpa he said he didn't know anything but wormers but maybe I would know something. I told him to bring me a fecal sample. Upon seeing it I was obviously very concerned. I took some serecia lespedeza over there to feed them and see how bad they looked. That's when I found one wouldn't hardly even eat and was grinding his teeth. The other was eating but had diarrhea on his backside (they were littermate brothers).

Anyway, I strongly encouraged him to just give them some corid and quest and he really didn't want to. Finally after going around and around he decided to try what I came up with naturally until the next day and if it didn't work out to give them to my grandpa and we could treat them however (he really didn't want to use the chems!). So I said I would try some garlic granules and slippery elm powder mixed together, a tablespoon about every hour that day, and then back down to every couple of hours. I then took some sericia lespedeza from the side of our dirt road over there and fed them some and told him to feed them some too. They appeared better the next day, diarrhea let up and they were eating good etc. About 10 days later I had him bring me another fecal sample and I was both shocked and delighted to see it clean as a whistle. And that's the difference, when you are in an acute situation, you can't just give one dose of herbs and walk away, it's an every hour or two deal. I've also used herbs successfully on pnuemonia in this manner and coccidia on another doe here recently. In that case I used Fir Meadows GI soother product several times a day. She seems to be doing well now but I haven't fecal ed her.

I believe herbs are extremely effective when used properly. Sadly, with the glitz and glam of the pharmacuetical industry, and their corruption of our FDA, a lot of knowledge has been lost or become hard to find and I think that's why you see people using herbs without success. Because we use them all the time here and they are extremely effective. I've seen people with kidney failure get better and be able to return to work. People with long standing infections that the most dangerous chemical antibiotics were not touching, healed up. My aunt had a shoulder problem that surgery did not help, she could not lift her arm above her shoulder level, after being on some herbs for that for about a month and a half, she suddenly realized her shoulder was ok when she reached for a cabinet door above her head. Never another day's trouble. My sister had a tooth abscess with her cheek sticking way out, herbs took care of that. Mastitis I've cured up multiple times with NO chems. Saw a woman with hashimoto's thyroiditis, an auto immune disease of the thyroid, she was swollen up and yellow practically bed ridden talked extremely slowly, back to normal and functioning (used both herbs and animal based glandulars).

Our bodies were designed to consume and use herbs. They were never designed to take and use man made chemicals.

And people say, well there are no studies.. No and there aren't likely to be any either because no one takes herbs seriously (why? because no one else takes them seriously- plus many mixes the health food stores are weak and worthless) and when they do, the FDA gets their hackles up because :

How silly, I drink water to prevent dehydration and eat citrus fruit to prevent scurvy. How about you?

Good read, Thanks for taking the time to post this. U

SPIKE

MDKatie · #40 02/02/12, 10:07 AM

I don't really have an opinion either way, because I haven't personally used the herbals. I do know the breeder I bought one of my does from said they used Hoegger's herbals. A year later I saw her and she said they had the vet run fecals and the goats were loaded with parasites, and now they don't use the herbals anymore. It obviously didn't work for them.

One thing that bugs the heck out of me is when people call conventional dewormers "chemicals". Herbal wormers contain chemicals too, that's what makes them work. The chemicals in the herbs are toxic to the parasites. It would more accurate if the "chemical dewormer" was called "conventional dewormer" IMO.

And also about the tobacco. Ugh. If tobacco is going to be used as a dewormer, so much tobacco has to be given to kill parasites that it would also be toxic to the animal.