Yes it could be a spinal injury, it would mimic MW as that effects the spine, too. Have you put slight pressure all along his spine to see if he reacts (as in pain)

Try running your fingers along his back on both sides up towards his neck/spine. Do you feel something like a tunnel under the skin? This doesn't always happen but if you find a tunnel under the skin you would know for sure it's MW as that would have been it's path.

I'm pretty much out of suggestions. Since the sling thing didn't work do as Beccachow suggested and just move him for excercize. Also, just an FYI- sometimes if animals are down for extended periods of time, they don't think they can get up because they haven't been able to for so long. Probably not so with your buck but wanted to throw it out there.

I don't have to tell you he should be improving by now, I think you know.

Okay, if he were mine I think I'd try just a few more things
-up his redcell to 10cc's. -Bose him (selenium injection script, or maybe people pills would work) and of course stay with everything else you are doing.

I don't really think either of these will help, but it is hard to just not do anything and give up.

Other than that all you can do is wait to see if there is improvement in a few more days. It doesn't look good for him, I"m thinking we should be seeing something by now.

HF

If it was UC from the onset he would be dead by now.

UC is a blockage, he wouldn't be piddling, his stomach would get all bloated like, he'd be crying in pain, then he would die when his insides rupture. It is very painful.

Ammonium Chloride is used for prevention-it is a powder you can get from Jeffers Livestock online. Sometimes it's used as a last ditch effort to save them but from what I"ve read isn't often.

Here's a link:
http://www.goatworld.com/articles/urinarycalculi/
HF

Im wondering if thiamine injections would help?
If it is a spinal injury he will survive he just wont have full use of his legs.
Had a buck last yr who had just that. Chiro helped but at $80 a visit that wasnt going to cut it. He did manage to breed one doe but after that he would collapse in the rear, unable to do his job.

I think he's either on Thiamine or BComplex, not sure which.

Maybe up it? Can't hurt, expecially if you want to exhaust ALL avenues because he's a good buck.
HF

Buck is still here! He is a fighter for sure. Felt along spine from tail to head and no sign of a tunnel or lumps or spine out of place. I gave him some more alfalfa cubes soaked in water and he started eating them right away. No signs of pain or distress. Does not even seem to be gritting his teeth. Still follows me around and talking to me and nuzzling me when close to him. Drinking water just fine.

If I give a BoSe shot again-(I gave one at 2nd day at 1.5CC as I did not know how much but felt I should cover all bases so to speak) then how much should I give and how often?

He makes an effort to stand-will "lurch" his body forward to stand but just cannot get up on his legs. He does "feel" the shots going in him and he does not like it real well. The first 2-3 days it was as if he was too ill to care about them. Last night when I gave the shots he tried to grab my hand and the syringe. So he can turn his head around to shoulder well and he can feel the shot pain. Legs are just usless it seems. If I extend the legs he does not pull them back. If folded under him he does not flex them out. If I rub his body and scratch it he can feel it and he either looks back at me or his skin twitches and ripples in feeling it.

I read a post about the foxes and the coyotes causing what? I can't find the post on this thread but maybe read it on another thread.

I have had foxes on the property just over the last several months.They got some chickens and then started on the geese. And the geese were in a pen at night! I saw a fox coming up and over the goat area fencing with a banty chicken in his mouth that had taken a liking to staying in with the goats. When the third goose was taken I was really mad. So I called in an "exterminator". At 2:30 in the morning I heard alot of ruffling noises-no yells or yipes or anything-grabbed the gun and in pj's went and checked the traps. Could not see well so drove the garden tractor to the area-left lights on-and shot the culprit behind the ear. Then got another one the next night and he was shot. So far no more. Both were males so hopefully the population growth will slow down a little.

Going to try and come up with something that I can lay buck across but that will not elevate him to high but will allow him some ability to be up higher than the ground and see if he uses his legs any and will see if he can still control his head as opposed to just flopping over as it did in the sling. I think a hay bale at this point might be too high.

I have never read of foxes or coyotes causing something, I have only read that deer can cause brain worm. Meningial worm I think and I am sure I spelled that wrong. I am glad we have no deer around here! Not sure of it shows up in a fecal or not.

I would think with a heavy worm load you would have seen bottle jaw but with him being in the condition he is maybe not, since it tends to happen later in the day from keeping their head down eating/grazing most of the day.

Can you take a fecal into a vet? It is not very expensive and then you would know if he is wormy and what wormer to use for it.

If you run out of Red Cell you can use Geritol liquid in place of it. Goats actually like it and the one I gave it to actually looked forward to it, I would give her 12 ccs twice a day. Smelled awful to me!

We put our Louie up over a small dog kennel with blankets on it so his feet here touching the ground butall the weight wasn't on them. Also when my mom had kids go down she would four times a day lay them on a large pan can (like the really really big ones) so they could move their legs around. It took her kids about 2 weeks to be able to get up on their hind legs and then she would brace them. I would think their personally their legs fall asleep.

It doesn't sound Like Urinary calculi at all. Like HappyFarmer said if that was his problem he'd already be gone.

Beccachow had a good idea about flexing his legs kinda like goat therapy to keep his muscles working.

Are you just giving him the Ivermectin daily & how much? Have you also given him the Quest wormer at all?

I 2nd taking a fecal to a vet for them to test for worms & what kind. At least then maybe you'll have some kinda of idea hopefully of what's going on.
If he had an injury from another herd mate it seems like he'd be grinding his teeth alot in pain. Wish I could help, but I'll keep my fingers crossed for the both of you.
So hard when you are doing everything you can think of & still not much improvement but don't give up yet!

I wouldn't bother with taking a fecal on the buck - it would be a waste of money as he's been de-wormed multiple times over the past 5 days.

Take a fecal on his pasturemates. Even so it won't tell a lot if you wormed them within the past 21 days, other than the type of worm if you can find any eggs. It won't give you any indication of the infestation levels unless over the 21 day lifecycle.

Just my thoughts
HF

I would try to get him up in a sling or prop him over a hay bale. He needs to get the strength back in his hind end - his legs are probably numb from laying on them, and now weak from lack of use. I had a buck down for a solid month because of frostbite on his feet. It took a bit of "physical therapy" to get him walking again, the entire process took about 8 weeks. Rigged up a sling like a cow sling so he could just barely put weight on his feet. Today he is a big strong guy doing his job.

I don't understand the comment about foxes & coyotes.

If MW, thinking it is, he may well not get better. I'd still give a little more time though to be certain.

HF

I think hes worried the buck will be attacked by a fox or coyotes since hes down.

Just so you know. Most shots can be given SQ so there's no need to cause the pain of an IM.

Good luck with him.

I would be concerned of the coyotes. Foxes not so much.

I didn't realize he had the Bose. I wouldn't give it again. Don't panic if you did, just don't give anymore.

How is he today? What's his name?

I took a half barrell of a small 35 gallon size that I had previously cut in half to use as food and water troughs for my animals and I turned it over and pulled the buck up over it as best I could. He did not care for it but then I could see that he actually could move his front legs and feet. I moved his front legs out in front of him to get them to flex and he would move them around and back towards him in an effort to get off of the barrell. His knees are not swollen at all. I could not get him all the way over the barrell as he kept slipping off backwards. But I did not see any effort from the backend legs to work to control him or to fight getting him over the barrell or away from it. If I move his back legs around there is a little effort to move them but not like the front legs. If I tried to pull him halfway over the barrell his head then would go "floppy" and it was as if he would try to pull it back into a center line position facing foreward but with some effort. Last night at his shots he grabbed ahold of the probios tube and kept tugging on it and playing with it and taking it into his mouth to chew on.

He is still eating good and drinking well, following me around with his eyes and his head. His eye rim on the bottom lid is starting to turn a little more pink but rest of inner lid is still showing such a pale pale pink tint. I have been giving the shots as a sbq. as opposed to IM as he has very little muscle to use.

I will try this morning to get him back up over the barrell and see what we will see as far has his efforts. The buck's name is Warrior and he is a registered Alpine. I hate to lose him as he has been such a sweetheart and good breeder. I do have his son who looks just like him and has the same gentle disposition as dad. I purchased him from someone off of the board two years ago. All other vital signs seem to be good. I will lay him on his side again and work his legs and look for responses that seem to be his own efforts. Berries still look good and he is still urinating. I am very worried that his eyes should have been more pink than what is showing now.

Would an Iron shot or shots hurt or help in addition to the Red Cell? And what doage and how often would be advisable? I have Durvet Iron-100 on hand.

Thanks again everyone for all of the help and assistance. I am by myself doing all I can for him. DH left in March and I have been running "the farm" without him. One of his issues is that he does not want to be a "farmer" anymore. So I am taking care of all of the livestock and issues by myself.

(((hugs))) And you are doing a great job! I have been following this but cannot offer any help for lack of experience. But I do offer a boatload of support and prayers for a good outcome.

Edited my post.

I hope all works out for you.

Keep up the good work.

HF

Bless your heart! It sounds like you are doing all you can do for him. I hope he pulls through for you. As far as his eye color it takes time. Have you looked at an eye chart? Heres a link maybe you can point out which one he is close to. http://goat-link.com/content/view/110/107/

If he is really anemic it may be several weeks before he begins to get better. The fact that his digestive system is still working is great!
How are your other goats?
Who is doing your fecals?

I wonder if frozen spinach might help rebuild his iron level and hemoglobin.

Bless your heart farmerjohn! Your doing a great job, don't give up yet! I don't have any advice to offer either at this point just want to send my best wishes for you & Warrior! Keep us updated please, I bet he's going to surprise all of us. If it's anemia due to heavy worm loads it may take a little effort & work on both your parts to get him strongenough to stand again on his own since his legs are probly weak, may have some loss of feeling from laying on them so much, Poor guy. I feel bad for both of you & wish were closer just to lend an ear if nothing else.

[QUOTE=fishhead;5447717]I wonder if frozen spinach might help rebuild his iron level and hemoglobin.[/QUOTe

Good idea fishead, or what about fresh spinach? It would be like a special browse for him.

It's 7 days since 1st meds, correct? Have you seen any improvement?

HF

I rolled him around this afternoon and exercised his legs. He does have movement in his back legs and really did not like my messing with them. But they seem to be able to move. Not real sure if it might be an involuntary reflex or voluntary reflex. Still doing great with hay and alfalfa cubes in water and a little cracked corn tonight-1 cup worth-and 1 cup of sweet feed. He eagerly ate it.

Checked the eye chart and his eyes are the white picture with just s tat of very very pale pink but not even close to the palest pink on the chart. No sign or indication of pain or discomfort.

When I went to him this evening to give his shots and meds he had moved around on his own. It did not look like he had gotten up any but more like his butt stayed in approx. the same place and he had just moved the rest of him self a full 1/4 turn. I am not sure how he did it but he sure looked proud of himself. So maybe if he can do that on his own there may be hope yet.

I have 8 girls left-3 bucks and a wether. Sold some earlier in this mess here and so wish I had not but was really trying to look ahead of what the possiblities might end up being.Some were the spring babies and my start of a nigie herd. I have only the alpines and the nubians left but they are great girls and I still have three of the spring babies.I have had individuals getting milk-for their animals of course-and wanting me to make them cheese. I have helped neighbors with goat issues in the past and have helped them deliver 2 sets of sheep twins and this has me stumped.

I also have 22 Guinea hogs with three sows pregnant. I was working with 2-3 restaurants to supply with meat on a monthly basis and not sure where that will go now. "Good Lord willing and the creek don't rise"-as the saying goes. Lord says to "stay put" and so am trying. Looking for any farm grants out there to "buy the farm" or at least his half.

When he was put in a sling the other day and his head just "flopped" down and to the side-could that be more from weakness or? Is it a good idea to leave him like that or would he strangle because he could not keep his head up on his own? Tie his head up or not? Will put him back up over the half barrell again tomorrow for awhile and maybe with his front end over a barrell I can try and get his back end up a little. There is a big maple tree over the area and maybe I can use a block and tackle approach.

I have only a son whose ideas are that I should not have nor do anything-period. I am suppose to be happy with knitting or sewing as a past time. DH has suddenly over the last year or so felt that self-sufficiency living style is archaic(sp) and is pretty stupid to have a garden, orchard and animals. Not meant to complain but it is what it is I guess. So I am trying to stay put.

Well, you have your hands full. Keep up the good work. Downsize if you have to, but always improve things to make it easier on yourself, then you can expand again!
Oh, and carry your cell phone with you at ALL times.

No, the sling is a bad idea if he can't hold his head up. There would be no purpose in tying his head, either.

If he's a good buck, I'd consider collecting him (as in AI). Personally I think he has irreparable damage, but I havn't seen him nor am the one that has to make a decision as to his fate.

Hoping for the best,
p.s. don't hurt yourself trying to move him alone- get help.
HF

The buck is still here and he is such a sweet fellow. Seems very happy even in the perdicament he is in. This A.M. he was again turned a 1/4 of a turn around and back end pretty much in the same place. Went out later and he had turned himself around another 1/4 of a turn so he had done a 180 since last night. So-I massaged and stretched all of his legs again and I re-checked all over him for any sores or lumps or tumor type growths. There was nothing other than he is thin. I got under his back belly area and straddled him and lifted up the back end. His back legs were moving and were trying to get a footing. He held up his back end just a wee bit on his own before he gave up. I then lifted up the front end and his front legs again tried to stand and he could not so then I put him on his knees again and lifted in the middle and he was like-"ok-I have had enough already". I then moved him for the day into a new place-had to drag him and he seemed just as happy as ever. Gave him new hay and feed and alfalfa soaked cubes and he went after it quickly. Temp at 102 and rumen working and chewing a cud.Berries still look good. Eyes still about the same. One side seems a little tat pinker than the other. I am holding out hope that he will come out of this. Hate to put any animal down unless I absolutly have to but certainly do not want any animal to suffer.

I was reading an article on the "Goat-Link" site about cocci in adult goats. Could it be that? Would the meds I have been giving him help that any at all if it were? Or just the Sulmet or the DiMethox Drinking Water?

Does the berries have to be fresh ones/ I FINALLY got through to the vet for a fecal test. I can get berries that were from him when he first went down. Would any worms be dead by now? How long do they actually continue to live in the berries? So if ANY of these worms are in one group of goats-as in all of the bucks-and the girls are quiet aways from the bucks-would the girls have the same? Was thinking about whether to get some of each group tested or all. Was thinking about animals and birds transporting the worms-berries-around the property. Does it take a hard cold frost or a freeze to kill of any worm load in the ground? Or is there a safe spray that could be used on the ground?

With having such a small herd you should do a fecal on each one. Who did your fecals before? Goats always have cocci in their systems, its the overload that does damage.
You actually don't see the actual parasite in the fecal... you see the eggs. Worms are species-specific... a bird cannot transmit a worm to your goat.
If he was really anemic, it can take weeks for him to get better. You are doing great at support-therepy!

Based on your posts I'm going to say it's not cocci. Your environment is incorrect, and his symptoms don't match, plus it is fairly rare in adults unless crowded/limited/damp conditions exist. No, Cocci is not a worm, and de-worming meds will not take care of it. We use Di-Methox straight up-we do not water it down like many do. Nor do we put it in drinking water - we want to know that the patient is getting the proper dose to do the job. We load a syringe (no needle) with the dose and give it to them orally. They do not like the taste. Some use koolaide to hide the taste.

A fecal will tell you his cocci load. If you have a microscope it is easy to do, just need a 10x lense and fresh poop.

Yes the berries must be fresh. Theeggs start hatching quickly. You can delay a bit with refridgeration but I don't recall how long - couple hours maybe?

I wouldn't not send fecals out to the vet for all goats. I would get a sampling from each "group" pastured together. These worms are not the same as the MW, I just wanted you to know.

In all probability your goat groups have the same types worms - not spread by birds but simply by moving them from pen to pen, manure removal, breeding quarters, things like that.

Yes a good hard freeze will kill the worms on pasture. We worm for the last time each year right after the 1st hard freeze.

I know of no spray for the pasture to kill worms. If there was you would have to apply it every 21 days during the warm season, more or less.

HF

p.s.

One more thought about your herd, MW prevention consists of monthly de-worming with Ivermec. You might want to get the herd on a schedule until the frosts come, then start up again come spring.

It's kinda a catch 22-we're supposed to not worm too much but if we don't another type of worm will git em. A dog in the pasture would keep deer away.

So glad he's still hanging in there & seems to be comfortable & body still functioning properly other than being weak & not getting up on his own.

I was wondering has he only been wormed with Ivomectin since he's been down or have you also given him the Quest too? Just curious because the Ivermectin doesn't take care of all the kinds of worms & doing a fecal on him now after being wormed wouldn't show a whole lot I don't think. Was just curious & just hoping something else might help him out too.

He was given the Quest also. I am keeping on the Ivermec for at least the full 10 days.

Got to thinking this P.M.-could be dangerous :-) but what about giving a goat Cod LIver OilL Liquid? It has a Vit A&D supplement to it. Could definately be given orally.

Not bad enough that DH has been gone since March but tonight the neighbor and I had a "peeping tom." Way out in the country no less. Police all over and I am outside with my 9MM. I have had some guy on the property three different times between 2-3 in the morning,. Not sleeping well and am up every 20 minutes to an hour and have seen his truck parked alongside the road and he comes up into the yard area and just stands around looking towards the animals and the barn. When he heard me open the door the second and third time he was here-with the rifle-he ran to his truck and left. No clue who it is. So--I am getting very very serious about a good guard dog.

I don't think cod liver oil is a good idea for a ruminant.

It's going to take a long time for his iron levels to go back up unless you can get injectable iron, but increased motion sounds good! hang in there.

the creeper sounds scarey. I don't think I'd open the door unless I intended to shoot.

Yep, time for a big dog. One that won't hurt all your critters & will protect you too! Maybe even 1 that's big & looks intimidating might scare the perve off! That's creepy! I'd be calling the police every time I even seen his vehichle & try & get the liscense plate number too!

Keep up the good work with Warrior, sounds like it's just going to take him some time. I do think your goat therapy will help him if you can do it with out hurting yourself.

Wish I had some advice to offer but am new to goats... I hope Warrior improves. Your care for him is an inspiration for me to strive to be as good a caretaker as you are.

I have a bottle of Iron. If I give injections of it-how much and how often" It is Iron-100.
Continue the use of free-access minerals? I withdrew the minerals last week. Would Sunflower seeds be ok to give now or wait on them?

Warrior has turned himself around a full 180 again this morning.

I was thinking of a large black Dobbie that is trained :-) One that would blend in with the night and come out of nowhere! Seriously though would like to have a large dog that would protect everything. Maybe a Rott?

Thanks everyone for your help and encouragement. It is very much appreciated.

I would use the iron injectable and leave out the redcell at this point, redcell has several things you can od on. I have successfully used 3ccs every three days to build one back up I would also supplement with vitamin c as it helps absorption of Iron in the body. Gotta be careful giving him high calcium but dark green stuff isnt a bad idea.

Move his legs for him if he cant, I have used a horse stall door net to build slings for goats for myself and other folks and its worked out well. With an animal down this long you also have to be concerned about pneumonia.
I was hoping to find that all was well with him sorry that you are still having to go through this.

If you have not treated him for cocci do so! It is the number one killer of adult goats as it shows different symptoms. Bucks can be hit hard with cocci.

Still praying for him here. Momma used to raise Dobermans as a kid so I have a soft spot for them. They are a great breed. At least you have a gun and you are not scared to use them. :-)

I would recommend a Weimaraner for protection and companionship. They completely blend into the surroundings as soon as the sun starts going down and they are intimidating enough. I've been reading and following this post and hope all goes well for you.

Worms are the #1 killer of adult goats as far as I know.
This may be true of young kids, but not adults.

Coccidiosis is not worms. It is Protozoa. It needs moisture & warmth to reproduce. Take out one of those 2 and cocci is not a problem. They are present, just not multiplying at levels that exceed a goats natural resistance which causes sickness. Coccidiosis is considered a man-made disease because we confine animals which gives the oocysts an environment to reproduce to dangerous levels.

Here is an article on Cocci:

http://www.jackmauldin.com/health/coccidiosis.htm