Do I have options????!!!!

Ragging may have been the wrong choice of words. I have been going over and over in my head trying to figure out something....anything. I have made myself sick thinking about the whole situation and the "what ifs".

Even if I keep the younger two I (and the family) are worried about contaminating the cow herd. They come back from pasture in the next month or so. And what if I keep them and have them tested? If what I read right, being clean doesn't happen with just one negative test. It consists of at least 3 (?) tests over the course of a year? The main reason for the goats were to be able to supplement calves. I can't do that and worry about johnnes passing through the milk. I can't even breed them if they aren't clean.

I might talk to the vet and hubby again and see if I can wait and test one of the younger girls next month. Is there a cheaper place than my vet. Price for prudence's test was $40.

Believe me, I don't want this. You can't imagine how much I wanted these girls but my desire to keep them is hampered by worrying about the bigger picture (the cow herd), maintaining family relations and lack of funds/budget.

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~Candice~

bknthesdle: don't let others change your mind about the goats, UNLESS you can segregate them. Your livelihood depends on your sound decisions. You've received some good information here, some not so good. Now is not the time for bleeding hearts.

The general concensus is that testing should be performed at 6 mos, 1 year, and 1.5 years to screen a herd. Then yearly, some diseases bloom late like at 4 & 5 years why the yearly plus any exposure potential. I would not buy from a herd that does not have at least 3 consecutive negative test results.

Learn to pull your own blood and send it to the lab, there is a pictoral of a kid doing it somewhere, don't have it right now. WADDLE in WA, Cornell in NY, and PanAM in TX all do Johne's testing. Pull blood yourself, they are like $7.00 each plus shipping. Cheap.

Do what you feel is right for your herd of cows, not what you want to be right but isn't.
HF

Pictoral:
goatconnection.com/articles/publish/article_151.shtml

Waddle
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts_waddl/

Cornell:
http://ahdc.vet.cornell.edu/test/

Pan American:
http://www.pavlab.com/

Thanks HF. Believe me it isn't just the forum, I have been trying to think of anything that would change the outcome. DH has been to. He knows this was my dream and was very willing to support me.

Each time I step outside and hear "ma" or gaze into their blue eyes, I wish for a different outcome. This is not the future I had planned for them or me. It never occurred to me that they would be positive for ANYTHING. I was sure that only happened to other people. My goats are just too perfect, to loving to have anything. I only tested because i wanted a clean herd, not because i thought there was something there. Boy was I wrong.

But as much as I want there to be a different answer there isn't one. Just got off the phone with my DH. Even if I could keep the younger girls back for retesting we just don't have a spot on the farm come winter. Snow piles as high as 10-14 ft around the farm. Where the girls are at now won't even be accessible once the snow falls.

I had this whole area planned for them in the barn. I thought I would see them grow up, see them become moms, help raise their kids. I just didn't know this was their future.

I didn't even thing johnnes was the major disease to worry about. The only things I was nervous for was CAE & CL. I requested the vet to test for all 3 but at the appt I almost didn't even test for johnnes but my DH wanted it because of the cows.

I really hope anyone lurking or newbies to goats learns something from my errors so that they won't have to lose the ones they love.

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~Candice~

By the way, I'm sorry you have to go through this. Remove them ASAP (if that's what you are going to do)or you will make yourself sick.

Why not buy an older doe, possibly bred, from a breeder that tests? RETEST before buying or stipulate negative or no deal, then you'll have the kids from birth, and know they are clean. You'll have some milk sooner, and hopefully you'll get a doe or two the first breeding.

Yea, the hype is usually about CAE & CLA, Johne's gets mentioned but not as often. I'm just glad diseases are being talked about more than the hush hush of yesteryear.

HF

We have a vet appt tomorrow. DH and I just can't do it.

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~Candice~

HF

Do any of those labs do fecal samples or are they all blood samples?

And how would I mail a fecal sample? It says a sterile sealed container?

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~Candice~

{hug}

I understand not being able to do it. You don't worry yourself about it - you're doing fine.

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Je ne suis pas Alice

http://homesteadingfamilies.proboards.com/

Confused, you cannot keep them? If so sorry....

Or do you mean you cannot put them down? Throwing out a maybe useless idea, do you have a yard close to the house, far from the cows and the big piles of snow? That might be where you can put them if you are saying you cannot put them down and it will keep them away from the cows.


WADDL is what I use for CAE colostrum testing. I use baggies and squirt it directly into them without touching inside the bag. Seal them and let them cool on the counter for a bit, then freeze it. Once all the does are done kidding I buy those freezer packs and put it all in there and mail it off. That was how they recommended I do it. They bill you at a later date you do nto send money with the samples.
If you call them and ask I am sure they can tell you if it is a fecal or blood and how to go about mailing it.

I think this is the number:

253-445-4537

They are very nice and quite helpful, if you want you can ask them about your results as well. They are in WA so there is a time difference.

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Update:

Ok, this is what's going to happen for now. I will take Prudence in to the vet tomorrow to be pts. Then we are going to move the younger girls and put them in a temp pen and wait til October to test them UNLESS Prudence's CAE or CL comes back positive. If that comes back positive then I won't have any option but to put Penny & Phoebe to sleep to. But for now, there is a small reprieve on my younger 2. In October, I will send off their fecals & blood tests.

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~Candice~

I'm crossing my fingers for the other two.

Sorry about Prudence.

An important thing to keep in mind is the transmission of these diseases.

Johne's is primarily spread by fecal to oral contact. I've read different reports stating it can spread in utero, to play it safe I just assume it can. Because Prudence is shedding based on fecal results, the chances are high the other 2 kids at least mouthed the pellets and were definately exposed. For Prudence to test positive at 6 months indicates to me, that her dam was highly infected.

CAE is spread from the milk of the mother to the kids. The other 2 kids did not catch CAE from Prudence. If they caught it, they did so from their dam or if the formula/milk/colustrum was infected with the virus.

CLA is spread primarily through contents of an abscess, but suspect is also mammary glands & lungs as in coughing. It's a good precaution to blood test for CLA, and we do just because customers like to see it, but the only accurate test for this one, CLA, is to test the exodus from the abscess. The other 2 kids did not catch CLA from Prudence, unless Prudence had a CLA abcess.

Johne's & CLA can be tracked about by visitors/shoes etc, or so they say. CLA can supposedly be spread by flying insects. These are also avenues if one is serious about disease prevention to make a part of biosecurity.

The labs vary on their testing and fees, contact each one if you are going to perform all 4 tests.
HF

Also be aware that at their age, if they were given CAE positive colostrum that was heat treated for CAE prevention, they will show positive, even though they most likely are not. There can also be false positives and negatives, especially if the AGID test is used to test for CAE.Make sure the lab the samples are sent to is a reputable one and make sure they use the ELISA test.

Believe me, I understand culling for disease. We had to put down a beloved doe because she was CAE positive and symptomatic. She did not spread CAE to my other does, they remained negative with 0 titers. Just remember, if you put them down without properly testing them, you are going to always wonder if you should have. I also understand tight finances and such, but if testing (of them, not the goat you are putting down) shows they are clean, then you will still be money and emotionally ahead, even with the cost and stress of the tests. If the tests come back and they are pos, and a subsequent test with a fresh sample shows the same, well then at least you know for sure and you have done everything you could.

As an aside, even if the two doelings you are keeping were CAE positive, there is no reason to put them down at this point. It won't spread to calves, so you can still use their milk for that and as long as you attend the births of the babies and pull them before momma even has a chance to see them and raise them on either clean colostrum and store milk, or colostrum replacer and store milk, then you will have clean doelings to raise.

The problem with store milk is that current pasteurization temps do not kill Johnes. So if the cows that supplied the milk for that plastic jug at the store were shedding it, then it's possible the babies could get it from there if you are raising on store milk. My vet told me it's estimated that 80 percent of cow herds have Johnes in them. So, I guess store milk can be a gamble too.

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I am just explaining what a very knowledgeable vet stated to me, and he was, for quite some time, a professor at Ohio State's vet college. He deals almost exclusively with cattle and goat herds in a large area here. He is very supportive and recommends CL/CAE testing, even to meat herds, which so many do not, but he said in college and since, the experience he has had and others say it is very uncommon to actually present in goats, unlike in cattle.

He may have no idea what he is talking about –

I am very sorry, at any rate, for the potential loss of your lovely girls, Original Poster L

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After talking to the vet again and weighing our options, our girls were pts today. It was the hardest thing I have ever done. I broke down in the parking lot. I feel like I have been beat up. Trying not to look at the empty pen.

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~Candice~

Oh, you poor thing. I just can't imagine.

Oh, I am so sorry, you did what you had to do, doesn't make it any easier. I am so sad for you. {{hugs}}

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Idleness is leisure gone to seed

I know the feeling. It is not a pleasant one, but much better than the suffering they would have incurred had you not done what you did.

Do consider getting more goats in the near future. There are responsible breeders out there whose kids are truly healthy. Inquire about testing and ask to see the paperwork.

I'm sorry this happened to you.

HF

I'm so sorry.

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Oh I'm so sorry *hugs*

I can't quit crying. I just want to yell, "I changed my mind. I want a do over!" I would beg for my girls back. I miss my girls. I will forever have nightmares.

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~Candice~