Do I have options????!!!!

thaiblue12 · #21 09/07/11, 01:35 PM

I would re-test, I would not put them all down for one positive.
If Prudence comes back positive again then I would put her down and test the other two when older. Since they have not nursed off of her ( not possible) and do not generally put poop in their mouths they may not be infected if Pru is.
I hope she is not, glad she is not positive for CL or CAE and hope the Johne's test was a false positive.

Pony · #22 09/07/11, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bknthesdle

I don't have an option to wait a year or longer. I live in ND and only have 1 barn and we raise cattle for a living. My goats would need the barn as soon as the snow flies and my husband won't let us chance the cattle over a couple of goats.

I am going to call the vet back today and find out how they tested (blood or fecal). He mentioned something yesterday about "high levels" but I was so upset I didn't ask him what he meant.

Eta: suffice it to say, remembering where she came from, and having spoken to the lady after I bought Prudence, it wouldn't surprise me if she was positive. She did not worm, or give shots or give minerals or baking soda or copper bolus. When I told her I was doing all this for my goats, she thought I was spoiling them. Her goats ran with sheep and lived on hay alone.

I just hate that my other two, who I bottle raised, came from a lady trying to maintain a clean herd. So they are given a death sentence because I didn't know enough to keep them separate.

I understand that the cattle have to take precedence over the goats, and it is heartbreaking to lose your bottle kids.

You need to do what is best for your situation. If you cannot wait, then you can't wait. I don't know how closely your three goats live together, but I have seen a goat with Johne's, and it's not nice. In fact, it's pretty grim.

Please don't beat yourself up. Many of us have made many mistakes due to ignorance. Now we know better.

Praying that God will guide you into the best decision for you.

**mygoat** · #23 09/07/11, 05:50 PM

I also wanted to respond to the claims that johne's is not common in goats/sheep/cows.

First, how many herds do you know that test for johne's? I know of 4. A pygmy herd, my herd, the herd I bought my buckling from, and a friend's herd. Just 4, and I've been raising goats for 10 years now. How many cattle/sheep herds do you know that test for ANYTHING, let alone johne's? Granted I'm not into the sheep/cow industry, but I've thought about it and have looked on many a farm website looking for disease testing information. I've never personally seen it on any website or sale ad.

Honestly, MOST herd owners with an unthrifty animal don't even know what johnes IS. This scary trend of lack of education about goat diseases can be seen in the USDA 2010 survey results (also to terrify you, 50% of herds asked had NO idea what CL was...) They take unthrifty animals to auction or the butcher, and that's that. When that animals' offspring in the herd get the same symptoms, MOST people think it's trouble with the LINE and cull them heavily.

So, is johne's simply not common, or is there not enough evidence to make that conclusion? I personally lean towards there not being enough evidence to make a conclusion like that.

Pony · #24 09/07/11, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygoat

I also wanted to respond to the claims that johne's is not common in goats/sheep/cows.

First, how many herds do you know that test for johne's? I know of 4. A pygmy herd, my herd, the herd I bought my buckling from, and a friend's herd. Just 4, and I've been raising goats for 10 years now. How many cattle/sheep herds do you know that test for ANYTHING, let alone johne's? Granted I'm not into the sheep/cow industry, but I've thought about it and have looked on many a farm website looking for disease testing information. I've never personally seen it on any website or sale ad.

Honestly, MOST herd owners with an unthrifty animal don't even know what johnes IS. This scary trend of lack of education about goat diseases can be seen in the USDA 2010 survey results (also to terrify you, 50% of herds asked had NO idea what CL was...) They take unthrifty animals to auction or the butcher, and that's that. When that animals' offspring in the herd get the same symptoms, MOST people think it's trouble with the LINE and cull them heavily.

So, is johne's simply not common, or is there not enough evidence to make that conclusion? I personally lean towards there not being enough evidence to make a conclusion like that.

Absolutely.

Someone I know who isn't me had a cow that was incredibly unthrifty. She calved and went into a tailspin. I looked at that cow and told Nick, "She has Johne's." The owners said she came up negative on the test, so no, it couldn't possibly be.

Fast forward a few years. Same calf from that now-dead cow. Calves. Does poorly.

Died of Johne's.

And NOW - one of their dairy goats has Johne's.

It is out there. It is NOT unusual, it is unheard of because people don't test and they dont' talk.

julieq · #25 09/07/11, 06:47 PM

We test for everything each year EXCEPT Johnne's. Our vet did the research and said he didn't trust the fecal or the blood tests for Johnne's, that they're just not accurate enough yet.

If your kids aren't showing signs of Johnne's I certainly wouldn't put any of them down. Just my opinion, and we're very strict on keeping a clean, tested herd.

Pony · #26 09/07/11, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by julieq

We test for everything each year EXCEPT Johnne's. Our vet did the research and said he didn't trust the fecal or the blood tests for Johnne's, that they're just not accurate enough yet.

If your kids aren't showing signs of Johnne's I certainly wouldn't put any of them down. Just my opinion, and we're very strict on keeping a clean, tested herd.

If I understand correctly, you won't see any symptoms of Johne's until the livestock is a little older. Not "old" older of course, because they don't live that long.

julieq · #27 09/07/11, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pony

If I understand correctly, you won't see any symptoms of Johne's until the livestock is a little older. Not "old" older of course, because they don't live that long.

You're probably right, I just don't know. I do know that the cattle herds around here don't test for it (they just cull unthrifty cows and send them in for hamburger).

Which is why our goats have never been allowed to graze here and have always been kept in our big barn. I wish they'd develop some more accurate tests.

Pony · #28 09/07/11, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by julieq

You're probably right, I just don't know. I do know that the cattle herds around here don't test for it (they just cull unthrifty cows and send them in for hamburger).

Which is why our goats have never been allowed to graze here and have always been kept in our big barn. I wish they'd develop some more accurate tests.

I do believe that the newer tests are, indeed, reliable - or at least more reliable than tests in the past. I've been reading johnes.org for the past few weeks, and there's a LOT more info there than used to be available anywhere.

I think I will play their interactive game now....

**mygoat** · #29 09/07/11, 10:58 PM

Tests are reliable, in their fashion. You must understand testing is a TOOL - useful, but it will depend on how it's used.

False positives happen because 'something' triggered the test. This could be one of MANY bacteria that are similar to johne's that were just contaminants of the blood sample.

False negatives occcur because the animal is not actively shedding the bacteria at the time of sample. Not the test's fault at all - all depends on biology of the animal. A newly infected animal won't shed the disease, nor will an infected animal shed it all the time or in high amounts.

With the fecal culture/PCR, you pretty much eliminate false positives. If the tests shows johne's DNA, or if it grows, it's there.

HOWEVER, you can still get false negatives if the animal is not shedding it at time of sample. This is the biggest deadfall, especially since johne's has an incubation time of up to a year or more after infection before the animal starts to shed.

And that is why testing is a TOOL, and as with most statistics the truth comes out with multiple trials (testings). You get the best picture of your herd's health with multiple, regular testings.

bknthesdle · #30 09/08/11, 10:49 AM

This is shouldn't be happening but it is because I didn't know enough beforehand to be forewarned. If I had started doing my research BEFORE I got my goats, then my two younger girls wouldn't be guaranteed a death sentence.

If this helps just one person then maybe their deaths won't go in vain. I am begging anyone that doesn't have goats, but want them to PLEASE do your research and get your goats from a clean and healthy herd.

When I called the lady I got Prudence from her response was "oh. Well I guess her mother must have it. Hmm..wonder if my whole herd has it." She didn't seem devistated at all by the news. This lady sells kids every year to those that have kids that want to do 4H.

I am losing my hopes and dreams when my goats are gone. I won't be getting anymore. This hurts too much.

I called the vets. The Johnnes test was done by fecal PCR and I was told it was high. (shedding high bacteria into the environment.) So this is indeed a death sentence for my girls. I don't think I'll ever quit crying.

andabigmac · #31 09/08/11, 11:04 AM

I'm so sorry. I wish the news would have been better.

bknthesdle · #32 09/08/11, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andabigmac

I'm so sorry. I wish the news would have been better.

Thanks. Me too. It's not been a good year here for us. We lost a 2 yr old cow we raised this spring. She got on her back. Then on the 4th of July my bull I had bought a year ago broke his tool and passed away a few days later. Then we have been hit really hard this year with pink eye in the herd and now this. I'm not sure I can take much more.

Penny and Phoebe were my babies. I wanted these girls so bad.

Do I have options????!!!! - Goats

Prudence

I am going to miss them so much. I can't imagine going outside and not hearing them yell "Ma....".

Lizza · #33 09/08/11, 02:38 PM

Oh, Candice, how horrible for you! I can't even imagine, I am so sorry.

thaiblue12 · #34 09/08/11, 02:46 PM

May I ask why you are not going to test Pru again?
You asked for options and pretty much the consensus is to re-test, not cull yet.
I would use a different lab and have her re-tested. I would not cull my entire herd based on one test.
The younger two may not have any contact with her fecal matter to the point that they are actually infected. Pru might very well be and if she re-tests positive then I would indeed cull her and test the bottle kids when older.

I understand the need for the cows to have the barn, and kept away from the goats. A cheap house can be built for them away from the cows. For my bucks I built a 3 sided shelter with- darn name escapes me- pressed something? Sealed it with that water sealer and it lasted over 4 years dry and nice, lined with straw in the Winter, facing away from the wind. The wind ruined it last year

pulled it out of the ground.

The sellers attitude is horrible. If she wasn't such a puke she might have let you test the mom which would have benn very helpful.

DaniR1968 · #35 09/08/11, 03:53 PM

Please go to another vet and retest before putting them down. We're only talking a few weeks. You could make a pallet house for them for pretty cheap if you need the barn right now.

bknthesdle · #36 09/08/11, 03:54 PM

If it was just me making the decisions then maybe I could afford to wait and retest. But it's not. I have taken what I have read online and from here and discussed with my husband, his family, and our vet and this seems like the only solution for us.

If it would have been a blood test maybe things would be different but it wasn't. It was a fecal test. We're not made of $$ to afford to constantly retest. And our cows are our livelihood. It's not what I want but what has to be done.

You don't have to like it or accept it but please don't make this any harder by ragging on me. I am barely holding it together as is.

**mygoat** · #37 09/08/11, 03:59 PM

I agree with your decision to put them down. And after all, it is YOUR decision. I'm not made of money either, so I can sympathize with you. It sucks, it always does to make the choice of who/when/why to cull, but I think you can rest easier knowing it's the best decision in your situation.

The good news is, Johne's does NOT live long outside of the body. Except in large manure piles, it generally is gone from the area in a year or so. Maybe once you have a barn set up for them as well as a safe/dry Isolation pen, you can try again.

I've had heartache with goats - we all have. But remember the joy they brought you, and hopefully you'll decide that you would like more in the future.

DaniR1968 · #38 09/08/11, 04:00 PM

What about rehoming the two younger ones with full discloser? At least then they would have a chance and not have to be put down if they are healthy. A new home could quaranteen them. If what I read here is correct, they are probably okay. I know you can't take a chance on "probably" but someone might.

thaiblue12 · #39 09/08/11, 04:38 PM

You posted here asking for options, you received them.
If simply asking why you are going to cull based on one test is ragging, that is news to me. I see no ragging in my post or anyone else's, people gave you ideas, advice and etc which you did request and I see no snarkiness.

Some vets are good with goats, others are awful. Some labs are better then others that is why I would re-test if I received bad news. I cannot go culling my entire herd based on one test. Especially one done on a goat that maybe be too young for an accurate test. I had one vet insist on doing a CL test on a 4 month old goat who had a lump. It is an inaccurate test at best but on one so young, nearly useless. She freaked me out and it turned out to be a shot lump. I never used her again.

Your husband and his family have a different view on the goats and they made a choice based on that, the cows and not being able to afford another test.
No one is saying they or their choice is wrong by offering other options or asking questions.

HappyFarmer · #40 09/08/11, 06:17 PM

I completely understand the OP's decision. Heck, I'm so bad about diseases I won't even have a barn cat for fear of Chlamidia, though the lgd's would never let a cat inside the pasture (& let it out alive).

I agree they are young, but a fecal test for Johne's is accurate. That doe was shedding the bacteria. I would cull that doeling no questions asked.
Cull = kill in this case.

The other 2 doelings would be culled if they came from the same breeder, as Johne's has a way of spreading pyramid style throughout a herd. If those 2 doelings did not come from the same breeder, I would test & re-test them, culling if needed, and of course keep them in a separate quarters. That's great that you have a Johne's free cow herd-the only way to keep it that way is to keep these goats off their pasture/pen/barns. Johne's is spread by fecal to oral contact.

As far as clean up of the infected area, there is a chemical you can buy, I think it's listed on the Johnes.org website. It will disinfect that area, and probably worth you getting & applying.

And finally, the reason I logged in: I would NOT, under any circumstances, sell a diseased goat to someone even with full disclosure.
Why? Because statistically the average goat owner lasts 3-5 years. Goats normal life spans are 12-16 years. Chances are very high an intact animal, will, eventually, be bred during their lifetime. When that diseased animal is bred, those kids will likely be sold to yet another unsuspecting buyer, whose plans may be shattered just like the OP's. If all owners would take ownership & realize these diseases are devastating, the goat world would be a much better place.

Diseased animals need to be culled/killed, and breeders need to educate themselves & buyers of diseases. It is the only way we can stop/put a dent in this senseless waste of life, disease propagation, and heartbreaking cycle that happens with every positive test.

The OP is doing what she feels is best for her, and making an informed decision and weighing the odds. I think that's wonderful! She is soooo much further along than those who have never tested.

HF