learn from me

Alice In TX/MO · #41 08/08/11, 06:56 PM

Allllllllll goat dewormers are to be administered orally. From Sheep and Goat Medicine, Dr. David Pugh. It's the college textbook for small ruminant veterinary classes.

Read page six, below the photograph of the goat being drenched. The link is from Purdue University's veterinary college.

http://www.extension.purdue.edu/extm...S/AS-573-W.pdf

All goat dewormers are to be administered orally. We are using them off label and at doses appropriate to goats, which have a uniquely *fast* metabolism. Adjustments are made to reduce long term issues, such as resistance due to inadequate kill and proliferation of resistant worms.

Creamers · #42 08/08/11, 07:23 PM

I bet your problem is Cocci - I and many, many others I know have large poultry populations free range with goat kids and never a problem.

Heritagefarm · #43 08/08/11, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

Allllllllll goat dewormers are to be administered orally. From Sheep and Goat Medicine, Dr. David Pugh. It's the college textbook for small ruminant veterinary classes.

Read page six, below the photograph of the goat being drenched. The link is from Purdue University's veterinary college.

http://www.extension.purdue.edu/extm...S/AS-573-W.pdf

All goat dewormers are to be administered orally. We are using them off label and at doses appropriate to goats, which have a uniquely *fast* metabolism. Adjustments are made to reduce long term issues, such as resistance due to inadequate kill and proliferation of resistant worms.

The document did not state whether or not Cydentin Injectable specifically was ineffective when administered subcutaneously. In terms of functionality, Cydectin Injectable works as well as Cydectin Pour-on given orally. Also, the amount given is much less (1-2 ml versus the typical 6-10 ml of noxious chemicals).

Pony · #44 08/08/11, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minelson

dm9960...You are getting great advice here. I'm just here to give you a big ((((HUG)))!!

Me, too. Keep us posted.

Alice In TX/MO · #45 08/08/11, 08:35 PM

The issue is not short term functionality (although that is a factor) as much as long term increase in immune worms. If used by injection or pour-on, the worms are not as effectively dosed and killed, leading to survival of strong worms.

The article says,
"Some products may be marketed for cattle as injectible or pour-on, but will be ineffective if administered to sheep and goats in this manner."

Seems pretty plain to me.

I'm just passing on the best data / information / authoritative sources I can find. You are free to adopt it in your goat husbandry scheme if you want to.... or not.

Bearfootfarm · #46 08/08/11, 08:51 PM

Quote:

The document did not state whether or not Cydentin Injectable specifically was ineffective when administered subcutaneously.

In terms of functionality, Cydectin Injectable works as well as Cydectin Pour-on given orally. Also, the amount given is much less (1-2 ml versus the typical 6-10 ml of noxious chemicals

According to those who actually did scientific testing, ALL wormers are more effective given orally. That's probably why they didn't mention Cydectin "specifically"

As to your opinion about the amount, unless you've done lab tests, how do you know the larger volume orally, which goes directly to the worms and has a direct route out of the body, isn't LESS harmful than the smaller volume that has to be absorbed by the entire body before it can leave the animal?

It did specifically say, on page 6, under Administration of Anthelmintics, injectables are NOT recommended for ruminants

dm9960 · #47 08/09/11, 02:48 AM

thank you all for your help. I really appreciate the fast and knowledgeable responses. It looks to me so far that I've not been giving enough. I am going to get a fecal done today. How long does it usually take to get the results? I am anxious to get this under control.
also, can anyone comment on multimin 90. I have heard that it can be used in place of copper bolusing and bose

Slev · #48 08/09/11, 06:21 AM

...so we were at Hobby Lobby of all places the other day. And I found on clearance a digital capable microscope, that allowed you to take a digital picture. And I got to thinking wouldn't that be the bee's knees in taking a fecal exam yourself and sending the pic right to "whomever" to quickly post back on..? Wife said NO but I thought it was a good investment... Good luck..!

suzyhomemaker09 · #49 08/09/11, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slev

...so we were at Hobby Lobby of all places the other day. And I found on clearance a digital capable microscope, that allowed you to take a digital picture. And I got to thinking wouldn't that be the bee's knees in taking a fecal exam yourself and sending the pic right to "whomever" to quickly post back on..? Wife said NO but I thought it was a good investment... Good luck..!

Was it one of the Digital Blue ones?

http://www.amazon.com/Prime-Entertai.../dp/B000059TF3

If so return it as it's not sufficient to use for doing fecals...there is not enough light produced to get a clear view...

Alice In TX/MO · #50 08/09/11, 08:11 AM

The fecal results will be done in the afternoon if you take them in first thing. Otherwise overnight.

Don't know about the MultiMin.

Most of us, when we first get into goats, try to be clever and innovative. Unfortunately, our first goats pay the price. Go with what's proven and what works.

Just like many newbies, I tried to avoid copper bolusing for a while. "POKE THAT HUGE THING DOWN A GOAT'S THROAT?? You have GOT to be joking." Well, darn it. You just have to put on your big girl panties and DO IT.

The learning curve with goats is steep. That's one reason we have to go with with what works and what is documented.

dm9960 · #51 08/09/11, 02:26 PM

just got home from work. unfortunately it has been raining like crazy here so I can't get out to collect for a fecal. My daughter, who does the morning feedings said everyone is acting good so at least that's something.
I did do a big worming for the babies last night. I am out of dimethox, still waiting for it to be delivered and then I think I'll treat as if they have it. Hopefully it'll dry up some by the pm feeding so I can run around behind the goats with a baggie. If I get a sample tonight, can I refidgerate it until tomorrow about this time or should I just wait until tomorrow to collect it? I feel so dumb.

Minelson · #52 08/09/11, 02:33 PM

Don't feel dumb...

You are not dumb. If you are dumb then we all are dumb.
Get the fecal tomorrow...the fresher the better. I am envious of your rain.

saanengirl · #53 08/09/11, 02:35 PM

Either Salmonella or E-Coli could be transmitted from chickens to goats in the feces. Coccidia would not be transmitted between species, but there are other bacteria that can be. My parents have had problems with ducks contaminating water troughs and have had dogs and goats get bacterial infections when drinking after the ducks were in the trough.

Pony · #54 08/09/11, 03:31 PM

DM, do not feel dumb. We've all BTDT in one way or another. Goats can have a pretty steep learning curve, and there is a lot of misinformation out there.

By having the guts to come on here and post, you have helped someone else down the line prevent tragedy - or at least know how to deal with it.

You'll get the hang of it before you know it, and then you'll be a pro... Until the next time your goats decide to try something ELSE with you!

dm9960 · #55 08/10/11, 02:51 AM

I just checked on my dimethox order, it is due in some time today. I also checked on dairygoat the dosages.

"12.5% Albon S.R. [Sulfadimethoxine] and Di-Methox 12.5%[Sulfadimethoxine] GIVEN ORALLY are the exact same drug
The dose is 3.2cc per 5 lbs"

so I am to drench them 3 cc's per 5 pounds once a day for 5 days as a treatment? that's alot of meds. or is that the prevention dosage? now I'm really getting confused.
so if I have a 50 pound baby, he gets 30 cc's once a day for 5 days?

motdaugrnds · #56 08/10/11, 03:57 AM

Sorry for your turmoil Dm9960. You are "smart" for having searched for help in dealing with your situation.

Another bit of info: I have been told somewhere in these forums that Di-Methox 12.5% (Sulfadimethoxine), alias Albon S.R.(sulfadimethoxine) ALONE is not sufficient to kill the cocci bacteria...that you need to immediatly follow it with several days of "Calf Pro"; then treat again 5 consecutive days with the sulfadimethoxine, followed by another few days (7 I think) of Calf Pro. [Would appreciate correction or confirmation about this.]

Fowler · #57 08/10/11, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm

According to those who actually did scientific testing, ALL wormers are more effective given orally. That's probably why they didn't mention Cydectin "specifically"

As to your opinion about the amount, unless you've done lab tests, how do you know the larger volume orally, which goes directly to the worms and has a direct route out of the body, isn't LESS harmful than the smaller volume that has to be absorbed by the entire body before it can leave the animal?

It did specifically say, on page 6, under Administration of Anthelmintics, injectables are NOT recommended for ruminants

I agree with Alice and Bearfoot. Cydectin works and it works better then anything else in a worm overload situation,If used properly per instructions. And orally just like they both have stated.
I hope you got the fecal test done, I am keeping my fingers crossed for you.

Oat Bucket Farm · #58 08/10/11, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dm9960

I just checked on my dimethox order, it is due in some time today. I also checked on dairygoat the dosages.

"12.5% Albon S.R. [Sulfadimethoxine] and Di-Methox 12.5%[Sulfadimethoxine] GIVEN ORALLY are the exact same drug
The dose is 3.2cc per 5 lbs"

so I am to drench them 3 cc's per 5 pounds once a day for 5 days as a treatment? that's alot of meds. or is that the prevention dosage? now I'm really getting confused.
so if I have a 50 pound baby, he gets 30 cc's once a day for 5 days?

Yes. Its a lot of meds, but if you want to kick cocci in the butt, its what you have to do. If you want less meds to give, you can try and find Di-Methox 40% Injectable. You still give it orally, but you don't have to dose quite as much.

AuntKitty · #59 08/10/11, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fowler

I agree with Alice and Bearfoot. Cydectin works and it works better then anything else in a worm overload situation,If used properly per instructions. And orally just like they both have stated.

But if she is using cydectin at lower doses, won't they have built up resistance? Isn't it better to use a different wormer in this situation? DM9960 I live in N Florida and ivomec is still working just fine for me. How are your adults doing? Any pale eyelids? If the adults are ok and the problem is only with the kids, then I bet cocci is your problem. Hopefully the fecals will bear this out. If you have other worms, I would try the ivomec this time and again in 10 days and see if that helps. Also, does anyone know if you can give red cell to kids? That might help build them back up.

As to the feed, I have good results with alfalfa pellets, oats, black oil sunflower seeds and free choice hay. I use Cargill Right Now Onyx and find that I have to copper bolus less often with that mineral. Any feed store that carries Cargill can order it for you. I highly recommend it.

Hope you can get a handle on this situation. Hugs to you. Kitty

dbarjacres · #60 08/10/11, 12:45 PM

As long as the chickens roost somewhere besides the goats's feeders, should be no problem. My chickens are always by the goats, 5 years and no problems.

Multi Min is 1cc/100 lbs via SubQ, make sure to get all the way under the skin (like tent up skin over last rib and stick in) or it can make a bump. Also make sure to draw back on the needle as I was in a hurry once and think I hit a vein and the doe started reacting and I gave Epi.

If you can find Di-Methox 40%, it's a smaller dosage and actually kills the cocci bugs. Think its 1cc/5 lbs orally.