Homesteading Today - Government data shows safety of raw milk

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Government data shows safety of raw milk

I am convinced that all the FDA's aggressiveness against Raw milk is simply about proedting the interests of big agribusiness!!!! (Their maketshare of fluid milk sales keeps shrinking!!)

Yes, now we have caught them at it (again), but we can't let it stop here.

PLEASE, PRETTY PLEASE WITH SUGAR ON IT -

PUH-LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZE spread the word. Tweet it, post the info on your FB status, put stickers on the laundrymat wall, but GET THE WORD OUT.

As someone reminded me earlier, the Nazis took over Germany before they took over Poland. Be alert, spread the word, stop the stoopid!

Well, DUH!!! Gosh, how many people with over inflated salaries does it take to show this cash poor person what she already knows.

I drink raw milk all the time but I have gotten sick from drinking other peoples raw milk. Judging from the symptoms I'm guessing it was e coli both times since it was mainly stomach cramping and the runs.

Really most of us who drink our own raw milk are probably immune to any bugs in our own milk but when we drink somebody elses's and get a different strain of the same bacteria we can get sick.

Most people who get sick from raw milk just think they have the stomach flu or something and never make the connection, and it's not a big deal.

If I was a pregnant woman though I'd be super careful since for instance stuff like toxoplasmosis and Q Fever can both cause abortions.

From a 6/11 article

Quote:

A Michigan woman endured prolonged hospitalization for Q-fever meningitis and two other women were also diagnosed with bacterial Q-fever infections after they drank unpasteurized milk from a farm in Livingston County, according to the Michigan Department of Community Health.

All three women, in their 30s and 40s, acknowledged obtaining raw milk from the farm as part of a herd share arrangement, according to a report in the Kalamazoo Gazette.

Also important to remember if you are a pregnant woman and caring for goats even if you are not drinking raw milk to be careful as goat manure is dusty and can be ingested as this article also from June suggests:

Quote:

Five people in the Moses Lake area have been sickened, though not seriously, by what health officials suspect is a rare livestock-related bacterial infection called Q fever.

The infections have sparked a multiagency investigation by federal, state and local health and agricultural officials, who have now traced infected goats purchased from or bred at the quarantined farms in Grant County to nine other Washington counties, including Spokane County.

Officials also traced infected goats to Cascade and Teton counties in Montana, where another six people have been stricken with what is probably Q fever.

“We have established a direct link to the herd in Montana,” said Jason Kelly, a spokesman for the Washington state Department of Agriculture.

The situation began unfolding in April when goats at a Moses Lake farm had birthing problems. Testing overseen by the state Agriculture Department determined that the goats were infected with the bacteria that causes Q fever, Kelly said.

Then, in May, people associated with the goat farms fell ill

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/201...aced-to-goats/

http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2011/0...ever-outbreak/

Listeria can also be in raw milk and cheese. I had a friend who got it and was fairly sick but he wasn't sure if it was because of raw milk or just picked up from cleaning the barn. This dairy was closed because of it last summer:

Quote:

Inspectors with the Missouri Department of Agriculture have halted production and distribution from Morningland Dairy located in Mountain View, after raw cheese from the dairy tested positive for Listeria monocytogenes and Staphylococcus aureus.

The cheese samples were seized June 30 in California; Missouri officials were made aware of the California department's test results today.

Inspectors from the Missouri Department of Agriculture are coordinating with officials from the state Department of Health and Senior Services and the Food and Drug Administration to gather information concerning the distribution of the cheese from the dairy.

Quote:

A person with listeriosis may develop fever, muscle aches, and sometimes gastrointestinal symptoms such as nausea or diarrhea (CDC website, 2009). If infection spreads to the nervous system, symptoms such as headache, stiff neck, confusion, loss of balance, or convulsions can occur. In immune-deficient individuals, Listeria can invade the central nervous system, causing meningitis and/or encephalitis (brain infection). Infected pregnant women ordinarily experience only a mild, flu-like illness; however, infection during pregnancy can lead to miscarriage, infection of the newborn or even stillbirth.

http://www.foodpoisonjournal.com/foo...ria-and-staph/

Camphlobacter is also a common thing in raw milk. Not as big of a deal as Q fever, toxoplasmosis or listeria because they dont' cause abortions.
There was an outbreak in Alaska not long ago:

Raw Milk Cow Share Linked to Campylobacter Illnesses

Quote:

On June 24, SOE distributed an Advisory through the Public Health Alert Network (PHAN) to alert health care providers of the outbreak and to recommend testing for Campylobacter in patients who present with acute gastrointestinal (GI) illness and a history of raw milk consumption. Through the PHAN, the June 27 Bulletin, and associated press releases, members of the public were also asked to contact SOE and report acute GI illness following consumption of raw milk. SOE received calls from five community members reporting current and previous GI illness among persons in their households with a preceding history of consuming Farm A raw milk or cream. Public health nurses facilitated collection of stool specimens from recently ill persons for enteric bacterial pathogen testing at the Alaska State Public Health Laboratory (ASPHL).

Stool specimens were collected from six persons with recent GI illness and consumption of Farm A raw dairy products. Three of the six samples tested positive for Campylobacter jejuni; all isolates were the same rare strain of C. jejuni found in the four other laboratory-confirmed cases in this outbreak (pulsed-field gel electrophoresis [PFGE] pattern AKDBRS16.0166/AKDBRK02.0093). These three persons shared raw dairy products obtained from Farm A during the first week of July. A total of 11 persons who reported acute GI illness with routine consumption of Farm A dairy products but were not-laboratory confirmed were considered to have suspected campylobacteriosi

By the time they tested the farm all the milk that the people had drunk was gone but in the milk they tested they found Listeria instead!

Quote:

Farm A bulk tank milk samples collected on June 22 and 27 tested negative for C. jejuni, but positive for Listeria monocytogenes. None of the Farm A raw milk that was actually consumed by ill persons was available for testing.

But they did find the same strain as the people had in the manure:

Quote:

Numerous C. jejuni strains were detected on Farm A, which was anticipated given that many farm animals are known reservoirs for the bacteria. Finding only a single or predominant strain shared by the human cases is not unusual, and might relate to factors associated with seasonality or adaptation of the strain to humans.4 Finally, as was the case in May, the Farm A raw milk samples collected in June tested positive for L. monocytogenes, which can cause life-threatening meningitis in children and persons with compromised immune systems.

http://www.campylobacterblog.com/cam...-share-linked/

I think it's really important for all of us to be careful in our milk handling, and also to be careful when going from the barn to the kitchen where manure dust may fall off of us.

I've sold some milk under the table before but personally I'd never sell it to a pregnant woman or somebody feeding it to tiny babies whose immune system is not well developed.

Realize that exposure to raw milk or home made foodstuffs can actually make your immune system stronger in the long run and maybe even cut down on allergies.

However also realize when the majority of people ate home canned food and raw milk and cheese there were fatalities related to improperly canned food or contaminated milk. That's one of the reasons lifespan has gone up in the US and also why the lifespan is shorter in most undeveloped countries.

At the same time remember due to the mass production of our foodstuffs now that not only is it possible for inspected foods to get you sick, the impact is much more widespread due to the concentration of the production and widespread distribution.

So I guess what I'm saying is when you are canning your own food, or drinking your own milk don't necessarily think it's safe just because it's produced on a small scale. Your own vigilance and food handling and biosecurity measures impact the safety of the food you produce.:thumb:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollowdweller (Post 5321584)

Listeria can also be in raw milk and cheese. I had a friend who got it and was fairly sick but he wasn't sure if it was because of raw milk or just picked up from cleaning the barn. This dairy was closed because of it last summer:

Quote:
Inspectors with the Missouri Department of Agriculture have halted production and distribution from Morningland Dairy located in Mountain View, after raw cheese from the dairy tested positive for Listeria monocytogenes and Staphylococcus aureus.

The cheese samples were seized June 30 in California; Missouri officials were made aware of the California department's test results today.

Inspectors from the Missouri Department of Agriculture are coordinating with officials from the state Department of Health and Senior Services and the Food and Drug Administration to gather information concerning the distribution of the cheese from the dairy.

Truly, I am almost literally sick of this subject, but just wanted to clarify this for you in case you are unaware of the total truths of the Morningland Dairy "listeriosis" charge.
I manage the dairy herd at Morningland, its owned by my family. I can tell you that we are clean in our management. When the "test" results were sent to the FDA, they came in and swabbed EVERYTHING. 100 swabs taken from the cheesehouse , the equipment the cheese was made on, dairy barn, tankroom, even the inside of the drains in the milkroom(which I guarentee are never scrubbed!). Not a single trace of listeriosis or staph were detected no matter how hard they tested those swabs.
We tested the milk in our bulk tank(milk combined from ALL our cows), and again NO trace of listeriosis or staph.
So I'd like to know how it got in that cheese?? But they refused to let us keep testing our cheese to find out. (Oh yeah, finally they "graciously" allowed us to test it, but said they would never let us sell it, no matter the test results) So no, the rest of the cheese never got tested as we are broke and cannot afford to test cheese which we will never be allowed to sell, even if its good!! We cannot even eat it ourselves.

And, our customers are mostly elderly, families with young children(and pregnant mothers) and the immune compromised, the ones that are most likely to get sick from ingesting listeriosis. NO ONE WAS EVER SICK.

Believe me, there was a LOT more to shutting us down than the claim that we have listeriosis infected cheese.

Anyway, as I said, I'm sick to death of the subject but just needed to correct the record.

I stand behind our dairy 100%. Our healthy, grass-based, grazing dairy that is now going under thanks mainly to our ever-lovin' government protecting us from ourselves.:cow:

You tell 'em Emily!!!

I have no doubt such situations do occur. Someone could have easily been jealous of the Morningland Dairy operation and set out to ruin them. Since it was stopped the way it was, this leaves me pretty sure it was an erroneous conspiracy. I feel badly for that dairy!

I do understand goat milk is frowned upon by the "cow" dairies. Goat milk is much healthier, leaving an "alkaline ash" in the body; whereas cow milk leaves an acidic ash, which easily contributes to physical problems.

I also understand some goat dairies are not tended well (just like some cow dairies). We all do get use to our own and this may, also, contribute to problems showing up at times. As for me, I will trust my own "raw" dairy goat over any store-bought cow milk anytime!

cow dairies could care less about goat dairies
just as big dairies are not worried about losing some if any of their fluid milk sales if some states get legalized raw milk.
the only thing that might scare them is if some dirty hippies sell some crappy milk and cause some sort of outbreak and make milk look bad overall...like the spinach problem a while back

I agree, cow dairies are not threatened in any way by goat dairies. Most cow dairy farmers I talk to don't even know goat dairies exist. They certainly could care less about them. Most will promote "dairy" no matter what type.
Goat milk/Cow milk, two different things, different markets and likely will never be produced the same way.
Morningland is a cow dairy, by the way. I own the goats.:cowboy: Speaking of cows....gotta get up and milk at 4:30 so I'm making this a short night!

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammyd (Post 5376508)

the only thing that might scare them is if some dirty hippies sell some crappy milk and cause some sort of outbreak and make milk look bad overall...like the spinach problem a while back

I have heard this argument posturlated at some of the hearings here in Ohio. There is one main problem with this argument........since there have been reports of people getting sick from drinking contaminated milk......"Can anyone provide data that demonstrates that fluid milk sales have EVER suffered from such a report.?"
No one ever presented any data to support that argument.

Just about type of food could be contaminated with any of the "scary" bacteria listed above.

From the CDC site ....data for 11 years from the state of Ohio......The CDC estimates that over 300,000 people in Ohio drink raw milk. Over 11 years there was one suspected case, but not a SINGLE case of anyone getting sick from drinking raw milk. Sounds pretty doggone safe to me!!!!

Excellent information from an expert on the relative safety of raw milk because of it's inborn, multi-fold immune system that actually fights of deadly pathogens like lysteria and e coli.

Ronald Hull is a microbiologist and a food safety expert.
Entire transcript of his and Dr Ted Beals' expert testimony in this case can be found here: http://www.realmilk.com/documents/ex...imony-0508.pdf

Here are quotes from Dr. Ronald Hull.

Quote:

"5 Q. Have you published research on that subject?
6 A. Yes, I have. If Listeria, for example, is
7 inoculated into raw milk, then they're killed actively by
8 the raw milk's natural antimicrobial systems.
9 Q. Did you say killed?
10 A. Killed, yes.
11 Q. How much time does it take before the Listeria
12 is killed?
13 A. If you inoculate 10,000 Listeria into raw milk,
14 then in 48 hours they're all killed. That's at body
15 temperature. "

Too long for one post...

Sorry about the numbers. I don't have to time to fix them. :)

Quote:

"22 Q. Dr. Hull, let's describe milk a little bit. 23
A. Yes. 24
Q. Is all milk the same? 25
A. No, definitely not.
Page: 51 1
Q. What types of milk are there? 2
A. Well, there is raw milk. Raw market milk, I'll 3 describe first, is a living food. And on the other hand 4 we have pasteurized milk, which is a cooked -- I would 5 describe it as a dead food. The raw market milk is 6 living just as you and I are living because it contains a 7 number of live components. The first one -- the first 8 component is the competitive flora, which are the same 9 microorganisms that live inside of our intestinal tract 10 when we're healthy. It's the same flora that's used to 11 make cheese and yogurt. That competitive flora competes 12 out other pathogens. And we use that in commercial 13 production. We have available to us now strains of 14 lactic acid bacteria for use in specific ferments which 15 will kill all of the pathogens which can exist in that 16 particular product. So that's highly developed science. 17 And not only is it science, but it's in commercial 18 practice. 19
Q. What's the second component? 20
A. The second component is what nature provided in 21 milk from the mammal, and that again we refer to as 22 innate immunity. Innate immunity consists of several 23 components, at least five or six components. There are 24 probably more, but for today we'll just discuss a few of 25 them. The first one is raw milk contains white cells,
Page: 52 1 which if you like are the -- 2 MS. RUUD: I'm sorry? 3 THE WITNESS: Contains white cells -- sorry if I 4 didn't say it clearly -- which are the same cells that 5 our immune system, our innate immune system, uses to 6 combat infection. That same system is in milk and 7 operating when it's drawn from a cow. We then have a 8 subset of enzyme systems which are destined to kill 9 pathogens which get into milk. And just to mention five 10 of those systems, there's the complement system, which 11 I'll just mention the temperature of inactivation as we 12 go. The complement works with the white cells. It's 13 inactivated at temperatures -- I'm going to use Celsius 14 here -- 56 degrees Celsius. I apologize. We have been 15 using Celsius now for about 35 years, and I have 16 difficulty converting back to Fahrenheit. Although I did 17 learn Fahrenheit at school. So we have complement, which 18 is inactivated at 56 degrees, which is way below body 19 temperature. So it's just a little above body 20 temperature. Body temperature is 37 degrees, just for 21 reference. The second element is the lactoperoxidase 22 system, which is inactivated at 82 degrees centigrade. 23 And the third one is lactoferrin, which is inactivated at 24 about 95 degrees centigrade, which is nearly boiling. 25 And the last one, last enzyme, survives boiling.
Page: 53 1 So if we look at pasteurized milk, the white 2 cells are killed, the complement system is killed, but 3 the other three remain active. So we've essentially 4 killed off half of the innate immunity in milk. 5
Q. And innate immunity, that's the second component 6 of raw milk that makes it a living food. 7
A. That makes it a living food. The third 8 component is -- 9
Q. Let me get a question on the record. What's the 10 third component? 11 A. Thank you. The third component is a group of 12 enzymes which digest the milk. Milk consists of fat, 13 proteins, carbohydrates, and minerals. They're in a very 14 complex state in milk, very concentrated form, and very 15 difficult to digest without those enzymes. Those enzymes 16 there are specifically to digest each of those components 17 down into smaller molecules. Those smaller molecules are 18 the things that we absorb when we drink milk. They're 19 also the nutrients for the competitive flora, the number 20 one living system in milk. So the natural enzymes in 21 milk actually foster the protective flora in milk. And 22 so the three work together. But in pasteurized milk, or 23 cooked milk if you like, those systems are essentially 24 dead. 25 So the two milks are very different. One is a
Page: 54 1 living food. And I've brought an apple up with me. This 2 is a living food. When we cook it, it's a dead food. 3 And raw milk is like the apple. Cooked, the pasteurized 4 milk is like the apple strudel. And food safety issues 5 with these two products are very different. 6 Q. What would be some of those issues, then? 7
A. Well, the issues with cooked products are that, 8 yes, you do need to be very clean in how you handle it. 9 You do need to prevent contamination. You need to 10 operate in a very clean environment. And in the case of 11 pasteurized milk, we in fact use the coliform index to 12 ensure that we have pasteurized it. And going to that 13 point, the American Public Health Association in 1920 14 recommended to the dairy industry that they adopt the 15 coliform test as a measure and a monitor of 16 pasteurization. And it has served the -- and the dairy 17 industry adopted it in 1930. And it's been adopted, and 18 so it's served the dairy industry extremely well as a 19 monitor for pasteurization, nothing more. And that's 20 true today. It's an excellent monitor for that process. 21 Remembering the coliforms in raw milk, plentiful in 22 number, are killed by pasteurization, so they should not 23 be in the finished product. That argument is very clear 24 and very logical for pasteurized milk, the cooked 25 product, but it doesn't apply to raw milk.
Page: 55 1
Q. And why not? 2
A. Because the raw milk contains coliforms, and we 3 would expect to see them in the finished product. It has 4 really no relevance to the raw milk product. 5
Q. What's the effect, then, of pasteurization on 6 the bacteria in the raw milk? 7
A. Well, the pasteurization step kills all of the 8 pathogens that we know of except prions, which are the 9 things that cause mad cow disease and may also cause 10 similar disease in man. They don't inactivate that 11 biological entity. But they kill all known pathogens. 12 So it's a very useful step, if we're starting with a food 13 product that contains pathogens, to use the 14 pasteurization step. 15 Sorry. You need to prompt me again; I've gone 16 off stray there. 17
Q. Well, let's talk about the difference, then, 18 between a glass of pasteurized milk and a glass of 19 unpasteurized raw milk. 20
A. Yes. 21
Q. If you set those two milks out and let them sit 22 at room temperature, what happens to them after a certain 23 period of time? 24
A. Thank you. If we set raw milk, which is the 25 living food, aside at room temperature, it will curdle,
Page: 56 1 and that product is perfectly safe to drink. If you set 2 it aside at body temperature, in other words, if you 3 carry it around in your pocket or sit it next to the 4 stove at body temperature, it will also curdle or sour, 5 and that product is perfectly safe to drink. It will not 6 make you sick. In contrast, if you set aside pasteurized 7 milk at room temperature or body temperature, it will 8 spoil and putrefy, and if you do drink it, it will make 9 you sick. In fact it may make you very sick. So the two 10 products have a quite different behavior if just left at 11 room temperature or body temperature. Now, the same 12 thing happens when we drink those products. One turns to 13 a sour yogurt-type product; the other one putrefies. And 14 I think the two products are quite different in that 15 respect. "

Quote:

"Q. Let's get back to the end of Dr. Beals's 17 testimony, then, when he talked about the infective dose. 18
A. Yes. 19
Q. Does that infective dose apply to raw milk? 20
A. No. 21
Q. And why not? 22
A. I think what the authorities are talking about 23 is infective dose to the most susceptible individual in 24 the community, the nonimmune individual, and the most 25 susceptible foods, the cooked foods. Yes, the infective
Page: 57 1 dose is one organism under those conditions. Not ten, 2 probably one. But when we talk about a food that has -- 3 a living food that has inbuilt immunity, the infective 4 dose is not ten, it's not a hundred, it's not a thousand 5 even. You have to give a huge dose of E. coli, something 6 like ten million, to make someone sick, and then it's not 7 an infective dose, it's a toxic dose. 8
Q. And what's the difference? 9
A. The difference is a toxic dose is you're giving 10 sufficient of the chemical in the cell surface of E. coli 11 to cause a reaction in the gut, and it's that reaction 12 that then can lead later to infection. But in a healthy 13 individual it's almost impossible -- in fact, ten million 14 E. coli, if that's present in milk, the milk smells so 15 bad that you would not drink it. So we've got a very 16 good inbuilt food safety system right here in our 17 olfactory. It's just that modern food systems tend to 18 try to mask that olfactory with all sorts of flavors and 19 odors. And so we can be tricked sometimes. We can be 20 drinking pasteurized milk with a chocolate flavor, and it 21 could have a high infective dose in it, and the olfactory 22 will not detect it. But if it's raw milk, plain milk, 23 then, yes, it would be detected. 24
Q. Does raw milk with a built-in immunity system, 25 then?
Page: 58 1
A. Yes, it does. 2
Q. And because of that immunity system, can raw 3 milk be subjected to a less, quote, clean environment? 4 A. Yes, definitely. And that's part of the reason 5 I brought this apple here. I can leave this apple 6 sitting around for I don't know how many weeks in 7 California, but certainly at home an apple or orange can 8 sit on the kitchen table or outside for many days and 9 still be fine to eat. Not a health hazard, not a food 10 safety issue. But if we cook that product, then we 11 cannot do that. We have to protect it from 12 contamination, from infection, from the environment 13 because it has no longer living immunity in the apple. 14 The same is true of raw milk."

ddddd

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammyd (Post 5376508)

Have to beg to differ with you.

Here in MO, the Big Dairy Guy told the Milk Board head that the little-guy, family operated dairies are "pirates" trying to steal away his business.

If you don't think the big guys feel threatened by the little guys, you need to read more on this issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pony (Post 5378396)

Put yourself in the place of the Big Dairy. They have hundreds of thousands invested in equiptment to be able to meet the law and then you have all these little guys who want to sell milk out of their barns and kitchens.

I can understand their perspective from a business standpoint even though I don't agree with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollowdweller (Post 5379451)

The problem is, they think that they should be the only game in town, and they want to eliminate ALL competition. And many of them are getting the best politicians their money can buy to do just that.

To me, that isn't business. That's greed, plain and simple.

LOL
has raw milk in any state where it is legal put any big dairy out of business?
Over 50% of milk shipped goes to cheese less than 30% goes to actual fluid milk sales.
I don't know any farmer that got his panties in a wad when WI was almost on the brink of legalizing raw milk.

Its not the farmers I've ever had a problem with......its the system...Dare I say it, THE GOVERNMENT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pony (Post 5378396)

I beg to differ with you ........here in Ohio......some of the large conventional dairy farmers were "red-faced, podium pounding mad" about ANY "specialty' milk. They were practically screaming ,"ALL MILK IS MILK," and there is no difference (they even had bumper stickers printed p iwth that logo)........UNTIL a small dairy from southern Ohio brought a truck load of 'specialty' milk and passed out free half gallons.....with the confident, advice, "Taste the difference." That specialty milk is all non-homogenied, and from grass based dairies.......and no on lever said a word at subsequent hearings about. "All milk is milk."

Oh yeah!!! they care a whole lot......but instead of improving their own product they are determined to not allow the consumer to have ANY choice!!! I believe that what they want is a monopoly......and the government is on the wrong side of this argument!!!!

wasn't that about BGH?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammyd (Post 5380509)

wasn't that about BGH?

The hearings were about a proposed rule regarding "milk produced without the use of r-bst,' but A LOT of the testimony by the commercial dairy farmers focused on trying to 'do away with' all "specialty" milk. At the first hearing, if I remember correctly, some of them were passing out the bumper stickers, "All milk is milk!!" That talk seemed to end after Snowville Creamery brought a truckload of half gallon containers of their milk and passed them out (free).
http://www.snowvillecreamery.com/

Several months ago, the owner of Snowville Creamery was telling me that the 'mega-dairies) (Dean's, etc) were trying to get regulations passed that would put smaller operations like his out of business.

Big Agribusiness sees the small operations as a huge threat to their bottom line. As further evidence, their push for the 'Food safety and Modernization Act,' and their withdrawal of their support when small operations were exempted from most of the regulations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by billooo2 (Post 5380062)

Billooo2, I don't know why you're begging to differ with me, when we are obviously in agreement.

Did you mean to direct your comment at Sammy, or did I miss something? I KNOW the Big Suits hate the little businesses, and are trying to squash them (and our free choice) out of existence.

I was shocked to find out how much sway these fat cats hold in MO - shocked, dismayed, and disgusted, b/c we moved here to get away from that chit.

If anyone here or anywhere believes that our U.S. government (State's too) is not bought and paid for by BIG agri-businesses like Monsanto, ADM, Tyson, Cargill and the like – You are an absolute ill-informed fool.

We are all going to wake up one day and realize America ain’t America “land of the free” any more. We are being strangled by regulations and laws that make what we call freedom illegal. Most people are sheep. Don’t be a sheep! Wake up now while we still have time to do something. It might be too late already.

You all better read more, study up and write your congressmen, write the president and support rights groups (you know whaT groups I mean) or this country will become one corporate owned - government inspected beehive and baby you ain’t queen bee NO MORE!!!

:censored:

!! VOTE !!

OOPS!!!.....OOOPS!!!...OOOOPS!!!
Sorry about that!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pony (Post 5383136)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pony (Post 5383136)

Billooo2, I don't know why you're begging to differ with me, when we are obviously in agreement.

Did you mean to direct your comment at Sammy, or did I miss something? I KNOW the Big Suits hate the little businesses, and are trying to squash them (and our free choice) out of existence.

I was shocked to find out how much sway these fat cats hold in MO - shocked, dismayed, and disgusted, b/c we moved here to get away from that chit.

You can run, but you can't hide!

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDRider (Post 5383300)

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You can run, but you can't hide!

This is true.

And I've written to the prostiticians, I've donated to help the cause of right and raw milk, and I will do everything within my power to stand up against the sell-out of our once-great Republic to a bunch of fat cat suit-wearing monkeys.

I've been fighting them for so long, but I will (in the words of Winston Churchill) "Never, never, NEVER give up!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDRider (Post 5383235)

What HDRider said. :clap: