Milk ONLY tastes good pasteurized.

I've had raw goat's milk that I've liked, though. From my experience with storebought milk, pasteurized goat's milk was nasty. I only decided to pasteurize as a last ditch effort to see if it cured the problem - and it has. I'm talking a drastic difference. Raw milk - within 24+ hrs bitter, strong, and worse the older it was. By 3 days, terrible. Pasteurized milk tastes like it's 'supposed' too... just like cow's milk, if a bit sweeter. And as I said, if I overcook it gets a cooked flavor, but it's not unpleasant.


VERY fresh, recently chilled raw milk is great.

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Dona Barski

"Breed the best, eat the rest"

Caprice Acres

French and American Alpines. CAE, Johnes neg herd. Abscess free. LA, DHIR.

Ice isn't 0 degrees. Fahrenheit anyway. Water freezes at 32, and I *think* ice water is about 40 degrees.

This is going to sound odd, but I wonder if your taste buds detect something in Alpine milk that not everyone can taste. The reason I'm proposing this is because of olives. If everyone tasted what *I* taste if a random piece of olive encounters my tongue, NO one would eat them. Gak! NASTY! But..... I think I taste them differently. I've heard this about asparagus, too. (Taste disorders article: http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/smelltaste/taste.html)

I think you need two more does in milk, of other breeds, and see what happens!

__________________
Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

Here's the abstract of a research article on lipase in goat and cow milk.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...21448894000378

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Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

Excerpts from:
http://www.healthnews-nz.com/cream.html

Goaty Flavour
We have said that the fat in goats milk is mostly in the form of fatty acids combined with glycerine, to form 'triglycerides'. This combination can be split up, however, leaving free fatty acids in the milk. It is thought that this event is responsible for a 'goaty' flavour developing, though other chemical constituents have also been implicated in the flavour. (Potassium chloride and various cresols). The goaty flavour has been found to be strongest in milk samples with a low content of fat, protein and lactose.
Storage time increases the strength of the flavour. The enzyme lipase is responsible for the breakdown of thiglycerides, leaving free fatty acids in the milk. This subject has been studied in Norway where cheese where cheese with a strong goaty flavour is liked by some people. Goats were selected over five generations for the production of goaty tasting milk, and as a control, another line of goats in the same herd were selected for milk with low flavour intensity. After the eight years of this trial it was found that the 'high flavour' milk did indeed contain more free fatty acids than the 'low flavour' milk. Also, the percentage of lauric acid had gone down and that of palmitic acid had gone up in the high flavour milk.

* * *
The goaty flavour is not the same as the 'rancid milk defect' and the 'oxidation flavour' found in cows milk. Also, it is not due to unhygienic dairying or the presence of a male goat. Unfortunately for us in the UK, who do not regard goaty flavoured milk as desirable, the enzyme lipase is distributed in goats milk in a very different way to that in cows milk, and this, in addition to the smaller fat globules, which are more easily broken up, makes for easy and marked splitting of the fats to give free fatty acids and a goaty flavour. This splitting (lipolysis) can happen spontaneously. More needs to be known of factors, such as agitation, which can produce this unfortunate effect. Lipase is destroyed by heating the milk to 56' C. (edited to add 56 C = 132.8 F)
* * *
The consumption by goats, while browsing, of plants containing alkaloids (pharmacologically active plant substances) may cause tham to secrete milk of changed amount or composition, due to the presence of these alkaloids.

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Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

It's not just me that doesn't like the flavor of the milk - my father agrees it occurs with time. As I said, fresh milk is great. Milk immediately pasteurized is great. Raw milk that is 1-2 days old - nasty. It follows exactly what the lipase enzyme supposedly does - especially since pasteurizing has cured the problem.

I am a science major and have taken a lot of science classes and work in a laboratory - I almost always say Ice is 0* - and I'm talking celcius. It throws people off. I also say boiling is 100*, and that also confuses people that aren't in the habit of science classes/labs. But you're right, it's still probably closer to 5*C, not exactly zero.

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Dona Barski

"Breed the best, eat the rest"

Caprice Acres

French and American Alpines. CAE, Johnes neg herd. Abscess free. LA, DHIR.

LOL. I actually checked your location again to see if you were in Canada or somewhere.

I think you've got goats that make milk that tastes funny.

__________________
Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

I have a feeling it is the goats - I know a whole herd that produces gross raw milk, but I've had other raw milk that was great. . . individual goats. . .herds . . . etc. . .makes it vary.

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I am just curios if you have checked the temp of your milk after the 12 hours in ice water or are you assuming it is 0?
Also how long is it taking to get down below 45? these are factors in the taste.
If I forget and leave it in for more than 3-4 while there is still ice in the ice packs the milk starts to warm back up. I have found 2 hours in ice water, with a circulating pump will bring it down below 45 and then into a cold fridge. With just ice packs the milk does not cool down fast enough even though the water is cold and there is still ice the milk is around 55 even after 2 hours.
That is the standard for NY and it seems to work.
Just a thought.

I'm going to have to experiment with a quart today just for fun and education.

__________________
Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

No matter what the cause, I hope you get the problem solved!!!!

I honestly don't think there's much more I can do. I put it in ice water SECONDS after it's strained. It then goes into ice water in a fridge, so the ice lasts as long as possible. It stays in that water for 12 hrs, then gets carted up to the house. As I stated, unless it's HOT out, there is still ice in the water 12 hrs later. Not a lot, but still there.

After 12 hrs, the milk is definetely the same temp as the water it was sitting in. Doesn't take a thermometer to figure that out.

MOST people don't use a circulating pump, and what I do should be more than adequate.

__________________


Dona Barski

"Breed the best, eat the rest"

Caprice Acres

French and American Alpines. CAE, Johnes neg herd. Abscess free. LA, DHIR.

Would you indulge us, please? Plunk a thermometer in that water after 12 hours?

I was going to experiment with morning milk, but I decided to try making bleu cheese for the first time. Using all the milk.

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Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

There's still water in the fridge, but I don't use that method of milking anymore. I could put a thermometer in it now, it should be the same temp as water after 12 hrs.

__________________


Dona Barski

"Breed the best, eat the rest"

Caprice Acres

French and American Alpines. CAE, Johnes neg herd. Abscess free. LA, DHIR.

Have you just had them tested for mastitis and not cultured for other bacteria. Goaty milk to me indicates bacteria when all else is being taken care of properly. I did have an alpine cross and the key word is did as he milk wasnt ever right, considering she was my first Im lucky we ventured further into the dairy goat breed. We didnt realize how good goat milk could be until we bought into the Nigerians.

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I'm a goat person, not a people person,
De @ Udderly Southern Dairy Goats
we will be adding a new breed in the spring

even if i put the milk after the milking in the fridge and let it cool down with out the ice water ( 3 to 4 hours until 35F cold and does not need to be cooler then that), milk still taste good for at least 8 days if not longer. no off flavor or bitter after taste whatsoever.

if you don't like the milk from your alpine, why not switch back to your nigerians? i'm sure that milk tasted better. or get lamanchas or nubians.

__________________
Susanne Stuetzler
Ain-ash-shams
Nubian Dairy Goats

please visit us at
http://www.ain-ash-shams.net

I've never had nigerians - just pygmy crosses (may be nigerian crosses but they're THICKER than nigies - who knows?). The thought of milking them makes my hands cramp.

The alpines are on DHIR and the numbers have never indicated a problem with mastitis. They've been tested monthly since March. Mastitis tends to cause a SALTY taste.

Thermometer in the FIRST fridge (barn fridge) water showed a temp of 33* F. So, milk is sitting in a fridge that is VERY VERY COLD for the initial 12 hrs outside of the goat.

There WAS still two jars in there from 7/28. 6 days old. It was NOT as bad as milk 2-3 days old in my house fridge, but still had a bad flavor. This just shows that the extreme cold slowed, but did not stop, the enzymatic action.

Milk in my HOUSE fridge is around 43*F. I also put a jar of water in there to test the temperature on instead of sticking a likely unsanitary thermometer into milk. I cranked down the temp MORE because someone is likely to say that it is too warm in my fridge, though I think milk should be fine at that temp after initial chill. I do store it on the lowest shelf in the fridge.

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Dona Barski

"Breed the best, eat the rest"

Caprice Acres

French and American Alpines. CAE, Johnes neg herd. Abscess free. LA, DHIR.

i don't believe this is a temperature problem but a problem with your alpines. have you talked to april about the off taste?

__________________
Susanne Stuetzler
Ain-ash-shams
Nubian Dairy Goats

please visit us at
http://www.ain-ash-shams.net

43 *is* too high by five to eight degrees. Makes a HUGE difference.

The preferred temperature is somewhere between 35 and 38 degrees F (1.7 to 3.3 degrees C). Anything higher and foods will spoil too quickly (it also presents food poisoning problems, as described in several of the links below). Anything lower and freezing becomes a problem.

From:
http://tlc.howstuffworks.com/home/question121.htm

__________________
Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

Yes the temp in the water may be cold but the milk is different.
Please do a temp check of your milk not the water after 2 hours if it is not below 45 Degrees that "could" be your problem.
Think of what causes the bad taste. It is bacteria. When you cool milk down quickly you halt the multiplication of those bacteria. By allowing it to cool slowly, longer than 2 hours the bacteria multiply very quickly. Once they are there you get a bad taste.
Simply thing to do to rule out that problem. Humor me.

Well, 43* is where it's cranked much lower than the 'factory setting'. This is a new fridge, too. I'll be testing the water jar throughout the day.

Just checked my milk in the cold fridge about 20 minutes after milking - it was at 55*, will check it regularly.

I did talk to April, she claims no issues and told me about the Cobalt/B12 initially. That worked on the bitter aftertaste, but not on the 'aging with flavor' issues.

__________________


Dona Barski

"Breed the best, eat the rest"

Caprice Acres

French and American Alpines. CAE, Johnes neg herd. Abscess free. LA, DHIR.