? About CAE

teyze · #61 07/05/11, 10:00 PM

Callie,
I do hope you are not addressing me. I have only just signed up on this forum and have posted a total of 3 posts counting this one. sorry 4 posts

Blue Run Farm · #62 07/06/11, 12:10 PM

Sorry for starting all this. I did not realize it was such a hot topic. But I did want to update you all on what I have decided and say thank you for the advice and information on both sides.

Since my doe freshened with a severly hard udder and was a very poor producer, I have decided it is not worth trying to get any kids out of her doelings. Honestly, I really don't have the time to bottle raise and I am too worried that they might sneak kid on me and then I've lost another year anyway. Plus, I have no way of knowing if these two will have the same rock hard udder as their mom, meaning no milk for us anyway. So I am sticking with my original plan of culling the doelings too, just as soon as I have freezer space. And I am continuing to keep them isolated from my clean doe and her kids as well. I just don't want to take any chances, as slight as they might be.

I'd really like to find another doe this year, but finding a clean tested doe within my meager price range may prove impossible. I don't care about papers, I am only raising goats for milk, not show, but it seems too many people don't bother to test. Since it costs as much to feed a poor quality, poor producer, I need to try to find a good doe I can afford, or just accept that I am a year behind and continue to build on the two that I have, who are clean and my doe is a good producer. Hopefully, her daughter will be as well. Time will tell. So, if I can find a clean tested doe from good milk lines that I can afford, I will probably add her to my itty bitty herd. If not, I will stick with what I have.

Either way, Snickers and her doeling Skittles will be bred for next year. As long as Skittles is big enough by breeding season, that is. I'm not sure how accurate the dairy goat weight tape is, but according to it Skittles is around 45# at two months old. So I am going to double check that with my bathroom scale, lol. Interestingly, the two CAE+ doelings, who are four months old, are only registering as 50# and 60# on the same weight tape. So, I can definitely see where poor growth rates are also showing from the CAE. Now that I have learned my lesson, I will not be coming home with any more goats unless I have negative tests in hand!!!

freedomfrom4 · #63 07/06/11, 01:00 PM

Caliann, I got you an answer cause you acted like the other poster was stupid for saying a goat would cost $300 forty years ago, but in all reality some good goats were going for that. Then when I called old goat people and talked to them to get the facts, you came back with of course there were expensive goats then due to a bubble. What is up with you? Why would you make the comment about bellow if you knew goats were going for that price?

You said
"40 years ago, it would have had to have been SOME DOE to have cost $300. Heck, if I had found a doe for $300 40 years ago, I would not have even considered buying her! I would, however, have called up the seller out of morbid curiosity to find out what was so special about that goat that made her worth $300. Did she milk molten silver or something? Grow a shear-able, gold thread coat?"

Then after I said yep some goats were going for that you came back with this
"grinz at freedomfrom4~ Oh, I remember when Boers first came out too. Local paper had 50% bucks going for $15,000 each!

In other areas, the same bucks were going for $5,000. It depends upon the geography. In the early 70's, there was a short-term spike in the price of pureblood when the PB herdbooks closed, but that was short term."

CaliannG · #64 07/06/11, 01:17 PM

~sighs~ I so did not want to continue this thread, but, ff4, I will explain myself:

Yes, there was a short term spike in prices for PB goats when the herdbooks closed. There are spikes on everything now and again, depending upon *perceived availability*. We suffered a severe rise in gas prices recently just because investors THOUGHT that the revolutions occurring in Africa and the Middle East would cause a crude oil shortage.

In 1973, there were people spending $50,000 on cars too. Restored Rolls Royce and the like. Does that mean that *I* would have spent $50,000 on a car then?

In the early 80's, in Texas, the price for a decently producing, registered doe in milk was about $100. For a decently producing, UN-registered doe in milk, you could expect to pay from $50-75.

Of course, you probably WOULD pay $300 for a top-of-the-line, pedigree studded with grand champions, amazing doe that when she jumps on the milk stand, angels break out in a chorus...but that was not the NORM. And obviously, you didn't find such animals advertised for sale on the corkboard at your local feed store....like the show dog world, those does were already registered with their NEW owner at birth.

For the average goat person, in the early 80's, $300 was FAR too much to spend upon a family milker, and they would have asked, "What? Does she milk molten silver for that kind of cash?"

In 1973, if I had asked my mother for a $300 goat, she would have laughed hysterically. NO-ONE within a day's driving distance from us (We were in Oklahoma in 1973, if my memory serves right.) charged $300 for a GOAT! Jeez! ~smiles~

Does this clear some things up?

teyze · #65 07/06/11, 03:23 PM

Thanks for the update BRF. I hope you do find a doe to suit your needs. Ask around maybe someone has more than they need.
You did not start anything by the way. I believe this is supposed to be the place to ask questions and get advice. You just have to remember that not all advice is good, and not everyone who has an opinion also has good etiquette. Best of luck to you.

Govero Farms · #66 07/06/11, 11:46 PM

I have to agree with Caliann. I am more afraid to get sued period. I dont TRUST people anymore. That is why I worked so hard to get CAE negative and no CL on my farm. Yes I did have CAE postive because i didnt have internet that time and I trusted my mother in law. Yes I put her down. I had enough because she was the sick one ALL the time. Get sick and get stressed out everytime. Waste my money.. Now I am very happy with a clean herd with alot fewer problems or sickness. My worry level is better than ever. I just dont trust people period. I have noticed that people tried to sue others to get money. That is silly and that is what happening going on around here lately. I mean to others. It just sad.

cjb · #67 07/07/11, 11:57 AM

Folks, this thread has clearly wandered away from the "Be Nice" rule. Please go back and re-read the rules of this forum. For those of you who are new and have not familiarized yourself with the rules, now would be the right time to do so.

Nice it up or the thread goes away, the offenders get infractions and some of the offenders may ultimately go away.

Thanks
Cliff

ozark_jewels · #68 07/07/11, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

That being said, I have noticed goat people come in two groups on this issue:

1) People who have tested, clean herds, and will vehemently tell others to get tested, clean stock and cull any positives without a backwards glance.

2) People who have diseased herds, or suspect they have diseased herds, who will downplay testing (Oh, there can always be mistakes! It's not reliable! Maybe your boyfriend DOESN'T have herpes!), and heavily put forth how the Disease Nazis overstate EVERYTHING.

If a person belongs to the second group and, through some effort of their own or through the winds of fate achieves having a disease free, tested, clean herd, they will IMMEDIATELY switch to the first group, stating that they would never, ever, ever, willingly have or keep a positive goat.

Therefore, it is very easy to see who has untested and/or diseased herds.

This is not true of everyone.

I for example have a clean tested herd. But I have had CAE animals in the past and am not ashamed of it. If one of my good does were to unexpectedly revert(as does in closed herds sometimes do to the mystification of their owners, since we *still* don't know many hard facts about CAE) to CAE positive, I would not cull her unless there were symptoms, and/or other reasons to make that final decision. I would separate her and keep her as a brood doe. I refuse to KILL a healthy productive animal with no symptoms, just because a test run by people in a lab, say she has a disease. A disease that is not difficult to control and is not a danger to humans. No way would I kill a good doe just because of that.

Would I BUY in a goat with CAE?? Highly unlikely and certainly not a doe. Why buy something I would need to keep separate and take care of carefully?? I might buy an awesome buck who was positive. He is never going to pass CAE on in milk or birthing blood. And he would add a LOT of genetics to my herd. Much more in one season than any doe.

For new people buying stock, I reccomend they buy tested CAE-free stock. Its easier and they do not have the know-how to effectively handle CAE. The first registered goat I bought came from a new goaty owner with her first season of kids. She had pulled all kids at birth, heat-treated colostrum and pasturized milk. But my girl was still CAE positive when tested. Accidents do happen and newbies are more likely to make them simply because they don't have the experience.

For people who have already bought stock and find out its CAE positive, I reccomend evaluating your herd and how badly you want those genetics. Then YOU make the decision to cull or to manage the following generations so that they are CAE negative. No one should ever pressure anyone into that decision. Its a personal choice and should be based on knowledge, not hype or fear.

And<gasp>, I would SELL or give away a good productive non-symptomatic positive doe to someone who knew how to handle CAE, before I would put her down. Putting her down would be my last option. Again, its a test performed by people, thought up by people, on a disease that we know so few solid facts about. They test for the anti-bodies......how do we KNOW that these non-symptomatic does have the disease and not just the anti-bodies? No, I will not kill a good productive member of my herd for a piece of paper. The ELISA test is a great tool, it is not the word of God.

A symptomatic doe? Only thing to do, is put her down. She obviously has the disease and it is causing problems.

We all make mistakes, some huge, some middle of the road.

I look back at my past goat-breeding days when I was a relative newbie(6-8 years ago), and getting broken in really well by 200 head of goats. I know that I bought many goats for the dairy that I was told were CAE negative, some I saw the papers to back that up, some I did not. When I resold some of those goats later, I told the buyers that they had been tested negative. It was true to the best of my knowledge, and I had the best of intentions passing on the info. But knowing what I know now, I would test them MYSELF before letting them leave my farm. My reputation and my word are involved and I should have tested them myself, not passed on information I had been given. I truly hope I didn't hurt anyone by my ignorance......but I don't know.

Do the research yourselves, find out about all that you can. Be informed buyers. Responsibility is shared by both seller and buyer, but at the end of the day, you, as the buyer, will have to deal with your decisions.

CAE is not a death sentence. You can choose to manage or put them down, but that is YOUR decision and there is no shame either way. As long as you are honest about it.

ozark_jewels · #69 07/07/11, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

1. While asymptomatic goats with CAE do happen, they are not common. CAE positive goats CONSISTENT produce less in both meat and milk than their disease free counterparts.

2. CAE positive goats CONSISTENTLY have shorter life spans than their CAE counterparts on average.

3. CAE positive goats CONSISTENTLY have less than half of the lifetime milk production of their disease free counterparts.

4. CAE positive goats CONSISTENTLY have shorter productive time periods, both in lactation cycles and years of production, than their disease free counterparts.

5. CAE positive goats have over four times as many reproductive problems than their disease free counterparts, i.e. a positive doe is four times more likely to abort or not catch or settle at all than her clean sister...and a CAE positive buck suffers four times more likelihood of shooting blanks or sperm with poor motility that his disease-free brother.

Not arguing, but:

I have observed and personally known many CAE positive does. Out of those, only four were ever symptomatic. Swollen knees and hard udders. They were put down and turned into freezer meat.
All the others lived to ripe old ages of 10-13. They were very good milkers, not sickly, not skinny. No reproductive issues. I have also owned positive bucks and they were solid good breeders. The positive Boers I knew were not skinny and raised healthy good kids for slaughter. So, a CAE positive goat is by no means a simple dead end. Lots of commercial dairies have CAE positive goats and dairies only keep productive animals.

cjb · #70 07/07/11, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozark_jewels

This is not true of everyone.

I for example have a clean tested herd. But I have had CAE animals in the past and am not ashamed of it. If one of my good does were to unexpectedly revert(as does in closed herds sometimes do to the mystification of their owners, since we *still* don't know many hard facts about CAE) to CAE positive, I would not cull her unless there were symptoms, and/or other reasons to make that final decision. I would separate her and keep her as a brood doe. I refuse to KILL a healthy productive animal with no symptoms, just because a test run by people in a lab, say she has a disease. A disease that is not difficult to control and is not a danger to humans. No way would I kill a good doe just because of that.

Would I BUY in a goat with CAE?? Highly unlikely and certainly not a doe. Why buy something I would need to keep separate and take care of carefully?? I might buy an awesome buck who was positive. He is never going to pass CAE on in milk or birthing blood. And he would add a LOT of genetics to my herd. Much more in one season than any doe.

For new people buying stock, I reccomend they buy tested CAE-free stock. Its easier and they do not have the know-how to effectively handle CAE. The first registered goat I bought came from a new goaty owner with her first season of kids. She had pulled all kids at birth, heat-treated colostrum and pasturized milk. But my girl was still CAE positive when tested. Accidents do happen and newbies are more likely to make them simply because they don't have the experience.

For people who have already bought stock and find out its CAE positive, I reccomend evaluating your herd and how badly you want those genetics. Then YOU make the decision to cull or to manage the following generations so that they are CAE negative. No one should ever pressure anyone into that decision. Its a personal choice and should be based on knowledge, not hype or fear.

And<gasp>, I would SELL or give away a good productive non-symptomatic positive doe to someone who knew how to handle CAE, before I would put her down. Putting her down would be my last option. Again, its a test performed by people, thought up by people, on a disease that we know so few solid facts about. They test for the anti-bodies......how do we KNOW that these non-symptomatic does have the disease and not just the anti-bodies? No, I will not kill a good productive member of my herd for a piece of paper. The ELISA test is a great tool, it is not the word of God.

A symptomatic doe? Only thing to do, is put her down. She obviously has the disease and it is causing problems.

We all make mistakes, some huge, some middle of the road.

I look back at my past goat-breeding days when I was a relative newbie(6-8 years ago), and getting broken in really well by 200 head of goats. I know that I bought many goats for the dairy that I was told were CAE negative, some I saw the papers to back that up, some I did not. When I resold some of those goats later, I told the buyers that they had been tested negative. It was true to the best of my knowledge, and I had the best of intentions passing on the info. But knowing what I know now, I would test them MYSELF before letting them leave my farm. My reputation and my word are involved and I should have tested them myself, not passed on information I had been given. I truly hope I didn't hurt anyone by my ignorance......but I don't know.

Do the research yourselves, find out about all that you can. Be informed buyers. Responsibility is shared by both seller and buyer, but at the end of the day, you, as the buyer, will have to deal with your decisions.

CAE is not a death sentence. You can choose to manage or put them down, but that is YOUR decision and there is no shame either way. As long as you are honest about it.

In my opinion, this is very balanced and I would and do take the same general approach.

ozark_jewels · #71 07/07/11, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Run Farm

Since my doe freshened with a severly hard udder and was a very poor producer, I have decided it is not worth trying to get any kids out of her doelings.

My opinion is that you are doing the right thing. Obviously your doe was symptomatic and the end result of that should always be to put the offending animal down.
And *you* did not start anything so please do not apologize. You asked a question and that is a good thing.

MDKatie · #72 07/07/11, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjb

In my opinion, this is very balanced and I would and do take the same general approach.

I agree! Very nice, logical post Ozark!

susanne · #73 07/07/11, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozark_jewels

Not arguing, but:

I have observed and personally known many CAE positive does. Out of those, only four were ever symptomatic. Swollen knees and hard udders. They were put down and turned into freezer meat.
All the others lived to ripe old ages of 10-13. They were very good milkers, not sickly, not skinny. No reproductive issues. I have also owned positive bucks and they were solid good breeders. The positive Boers I knew were not skinny and raised healthy good kids for slaughter. So, a CAE positive goat is by no means a simple dead end. Lots of commercial dairies have CAE positive goats and dairies only keep productive animals.

emilly there are different strains of the virus.
all positive animals i had (bought a group of cae+ knowingly because of their genetics) turned up symptomatic sooner then later. the test result does not tell what kind of virus we are dealing with. and yes, although very rare, a buck can infect a doe through breeding. i had this happen here. the doe that turned up positive after breeding was raised on prevention and had a negative dam. only connection was the buck. he was only in for a couple of minutes until deed was done. this short time was obviously enough to infect the doe. i had not had any other positive animals at that time and this doe had never had contact to the positive group.
no, i would not want to buy a positive animal be it buck or doe. matter of fact i don't want to bring in any new goat and will only introduce new blood through AI. the whole cae clean up did cost me too much time, money and heart grieve and i don't have the nerve to start again.
my trust is gone completely too. i had people lie, or even forged test results.
but i agree with you, cae can be managed with knowledge and a lot of discipline.

ozark_jewels · #74 07/07/11, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by susanne

but i agree with you, cae can be managed with knowledge and a lot of discipline.

Exactly. No one wants to, but some of us have had to.

prairiedog · #75 07/07/11, 03:24 PM

Good posts Emily

teyze · #76 07/07/11, 03:37 PM

How likely do you all think it is that this could go undetected for several generations before showing signs?

dosthouhavemilk · #77 07/07/11, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teyze

How likely do you all think it is that this could go undetected for several generations before showing signs?

I don't know about generations, though I have a doe Y39 who stems from a line of CAE positive does. Oddly enough her dam and her great-granddam have/had tested positive. So far, her granddam has tested negative. I expect a change this year. The great granddam was 10 when we lost her and showed absolutely no signs. The others in the line show no signs.
30% go symptomatic (according to what I have read) and it seems to run in families. My doe line was a line that went symptomatic and so far has been the only line to do so (even though it appears three of our original five does were likely positive due to later testing). Our first known positive (my line), did not show signs until she was 8 years old. She freshened with a slightly hard udder, but it went down quickly enough and she raised a doe who I finally culled for meat last year (she was non-symptomatic). We tested the doe at 9 years old after she delivered her triplets and had our first positive test. Did a whole herd test that year (back in 2007 maybe). Realized that for the past 8 years we had been dam raising and it appeared that three of our five original does (and the ones with the most does in the herd, of course) had been positive. My line? The only animals left from it have all been raised on strict Prevention. We culled the last two positive does two years ago. One was showing slight swelling in the knees at 5 years old. The older doe was showing no signs.
The only positives left are non-symptomatic. No one would guess looking at them that they are CAE+.
? About CAE - Goats

10 year old CAE+ doe. We lost her last year at 10 years old. Her udder was butter soft and she was a fine doe. That picture was taken a few weeks after kidding at 10 years old. We lost her about three months later.
? About CAE - Goats

The second two pictures were probably three years prior at 7 years old. Her positive granddaughter is in the back there.

SquashNut · #78 07/07/11, 07:37 PM

Do you know how to can meat?

ozark_jewels · #79 07/08/11, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SquashNut

Do you know how to can meat?

My mother used to can chicken and beef, I never have. You might want to start a new thread.

Blue Run Farm · #80 07/08/11, 03:31 PM

No idea how to can meat, and I don't have the equipment for it either. But I just got a chest freezer, yay!