? About CAE

Thanks everyone! I guess I will keep doing what I am doing. I was kind of hoping to put them together because my second goat area is the front yard, lol. But I am just not willing to take the risk. I am tempted to try to get some negative bottle babies from them, but just not sure it is worth the time/risk.

Honestly, I am getting rather discouraged about the whole dairy goat thing right now. We started two years ago with two does, ended up having to cull one on the vet's advice. She was a poor milker and aggressive with my human kids. It seemed we were always having problems with her, so we finally had to make the decision to cull. There is more to it than that, but I don't want to go into it all. So, we were down to one doe, my Snickers. Last year I didn't breed/milk because I had a broken neck and then got pregnant, so decided to take the year off. Bought Sweetie last fall after being told she was negative for everything and she ended up having CAE. I found out about the CAE because she freshened with a rock hard udder and only ever gave maybe a half quart to a quart at a time if I was lucky and it never tasted right. So I did some research and had a CAE test run, which came back positive. I feel like an idiot, I did not know to ask about CAE specifically, it wasn't something I had dealt with or was familiar with. So, of course, her doelings are positive as well. And I am down to one doe again. I love my Snickers, for all that she is a grade mutt with a slightly low-hanging udder she produces 2-3 quarts every morning and is a great mama too. But once we cull these babies, we will have just Snickers and her doeling, Skittles. Skittles is only two months old so I don't know if I'll be able to breed her this year.

My plan was to have the two adult does and keep two doelings so we'd have 4 for next year. I really want to try making/selling soap and also providing more of our own meat to help supplement our income. We are barely making ends meet, so we need to at least break even. I just feel like I keep hitting a brick wall with this whole thing when all I wanted was to start a nice herd of home milkers and maybe make a small profit. Or at least save money on groceries.

I am really tempted to look at another doe right now, but I just don't know if that's a good idea either. While I need another milker for next year and it sure would be nice to actually go into buying a doe with the *right* information and asking the smart questions, I just don't know that we can afford it. I have looked at the Caprikorn Farms website so often over the past few weeks. They seem to have really nice Saanens and there are a few does on their sale list that are reasonably priced enough, but I think maybe I am kidding myself. I feel like my farm is "dirty" right now, and how could I add another goat? Not to mention that I have no idea where I would quarantine a new animal since I'm already quarantining those babies. I just don't know what to do right now. Sorry for venting, I just needed to get that out. Things have got to turn around soon, right?

If I were in the position of just starting out, and only having one "good" doe and the two kids, I would have kept their Mom and the girls too. Then after we got a few more kids, we would have started worrying about bottle feeding babies and culling does. There is a distinct possibility, even probability that CAE + does will give you a decent amount of milk. And since you only have a few goats, your income doesn't depend on them. I assume they are for personal use? You could live on their milk and bucklings for meat, and bottle feed their doelings to start a CAE free herd.

That is the problem I personally have with so much propaganda all over the web about goat diseases. You see blog after blog and forum after forum of fear mongering all over the web, many times from people who are trying to sell something, and other times simply from people who are repeating what they heard from someone who heard something else, etc. So much opinion is put forth as fact, and people get discouraged when they see the reality of the spread of Goat conditions in this nation. The truth is 80% of goat herds in this nation have CAE+ goats and 79% have CL+ goats. It is not the end of the world. And it is just heartbreaking to hear the discouragement, or even worse, the losses and giving up of people starting into goats.

Please don't give up. This is fixable. You can still breed these girls, use their milk, and simply pull their doelings to raise for your next generation. The virus is so very widespread in the caprine world. It is not an unsurmountable problem for you, and won't really hurt you in any way other than cutting down on production. But if you don't own a dairy, then is that such an awful problem when you are just starting out? These girls can still give you what you originally wanted them to give you. Eventually they will be culled, but you can still use them now as you first desired to use them. Keep them in a separate pen if you want to keep your other doe safe from any possible spread of the disease.

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Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Your numbers are wrong...and you are giving the sort of advice that encourages the spread of more disease and makes us step back from all we have managed to accomplish. Your logic is the same as saying, "Oh, don't worry about dating that guy with herpes. After all, over 70% of the population has herpes anyway. You can still have sex with him, and have kids.... and if you get it, oh well! After all, it's not like it matters."

Even in Texas, which is the state with the HIGHEST NUMBERS AND PERCENTAGE OF DISEASE POSITIVE GOATS, we only have 62% of CL+ herds and 42% of CAE+ herds, this is down from the numbers in the late 80's which was 81% and 78% respectively...and it is slowly getting lower all of the time. And we are the worst in the nation.

This is according to the latest numbers from TAMU.

But if we adopt the attitude that we can just ignore disease and that it really isn't that big of a problem, then it will go BACK to being that big of a problem.

Blue Run Farm has already seen what CAE can do...her doe freshened with a rock hard udder and didn't produce. That is a genetic thing...some genetic lines react differently to CAE than other genetic lines. Some lines never show any symptoms. Some lines start getting the swollen knees and respiratory problems. And some lines respond with having hardened udders.

The hardened udders can happen the fourth time a doe freshens, or the first time she freshens...there is really no guarantees. BRF obviously has the GENETICS that react by having hard udders...so what the heck good would it do her to keep these doelings, breed them in fall, kid them out, only to have them freshen with hard udders and not produce? That puts her back yet ANOTHER year from what she wants to accomplish! And then, if she isn't fast on her feet and catching kids at birth, she is facing the same, agonizing decision NEXT year.

~shakes her head~ That is simply too much suffering.

BRF, when you butcher the doelings, figure out how many pounds of meat they have produced. Also figure out how much you got into the freezer from their dam. Multiply the weight in pounds by what chicken is going for at your local grocery store, and subtract the cost of the feed you have put into both dam and doelings.

Count the scrapes, bones, fat, etc. that you feed to the dogs and cats at the same rate as your dog/cat food is per pound. Yes, even though you might buy dry kibble, and the scrapes, fats, bones, etc., still have water weight, your dogs and cats are still getting more nutrition per pound of butcher scrapes than they do from a pound of dry kibble, so rate it at full cost.

That will be the amount that they have saved you in buying meat/pet foods....and therefore your budget for a new, CLEAN doe with negative testing papers in hand.

Add whatever little bit you can to that for your goat budget and perhaps, by the end of summer, you can get a doe either bred or ready to breed that won't break your heart.

Your farm won't be "dirty" once you butcher the doelings...but if it makes you feel any better, you can get a fertilizer sprayer, fill it with bleach water, and as soon as they are gone, douse their previous quarters completely and disinfect religiously. You don't HAVE to do this; CAE does not stick around in the ground or feed pans....but I know it just sometimes feels better to go crazy with soap and bleach.

I hope this helps. I know how discouraging getting into new livestock can be when it seems at every turn you are being faced with one set-back after another. Chin up and all that...consider this the learning year and most learning comes with pain attached. ~hugs~

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Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

Calli-- This is something we will have to agree to disagree upon. The % numbers are higher than you assume, or at least were when the studies that I have seen were reported.

I would never suggest that someone just starting out cull to the point of discouragement. I would never suggest anyone loose a lot of money culling goats when they just put money into buying them when it is entirely possible, even probable that by keeping them they could breed them and get healthy replacements from them, when all she would have to do is pull them and bottle feed the next set of kids. I would always encourage people to move on into goat raising and ownership. Things will get better. And nothing in goat ownership is the end of the world, not even the bad times. And I am not trying to make money off of any person, so I have nothing to gain by either discouraging or encouraging the person. I just believe in encouragement.

The absolute worse thing she could get from CAE+ goats at this age is a hard udder when they freshen. It's heartbreaking, but it happens sometimes. And there is always a chance a CAE+ goat might still be a decent milker. There is nothing to loose in keeping the kids, raising them, and then pulling their doelings and bottle-feeding them. Even if you don't get milk from the does, you get the kids. The worse symptoms of the virus show up later.

You can rant and rave and discourage people into killing off their stock, loosing money on goats they just bought, and giving up completely, but I won't do it. I will encourage them. This is not the end of the world. And I am not trying to get their money or sell them anything. This is not an insurmountable problem.

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Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

~sighs heavily~ I'll see what I can do to get you this year's TAMU stuff. Sorry, but the numbers, as more and more people are becoming educated, and commercial producers are realizing the losses the disease cause, are getting lower.

You may call telling someone to get out of a bad investment before it starts sucking even more money out of her "ranting and raving", but I simply call it financial advice. She already knows that she has a genetic line that reacts to CAE with hard udders and poor production; so why should she want to continue both the disease AND the genetic line that reacts poorly to the disease? For the chance that she MIGHT end up with clean doelings next year? What if the doelings are bred and they both end up with rock hard, un-producing udders (like their dam) and throw all bucklings? Where is BRF then? Out nearly a year of feed costs, health care, not to mention the emotional investment and for nothing?

She is better off, all the way around, cutting her losses as quickly as possible, and then investing in stock that is clean and viable for the long term.

You are arguing to throw good money after bad...and perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree on that also.

Edited to Add: I *might* be more flexible if the dam was asymptomatic, or if the dam had been 6 or 7 years old and developing the joint arthritis forms...but neither were the case. The dam developed the one form of the disease that would be a reason to cull a dairy goat ANYWAY. A dairy goat that is not producing significant amounts of milk is not worth breeding and feeding anyway...people cull badly or non-producing does out of their herd that DON'T have diseases.... and people cull whole lines that turn out to end in bad producers. I see absolutely no reason for BRF to keep goats that have a significant chance of not giving her any milk in return for the time and money she puts into them. And besides, I also see no reason to propagate the genetic lineage that reacts the worst to the disease either.

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Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

The person using the inflammatory language is..... well, I guess you can tell who it is. Again.

For MOST of us, CAE is a culling disease. We don't want it in our herds. There are plenty of CAE free herds out there, if you know to ask.

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Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

inflammatory language????

There is always the possibility of selling wethers for meat or putting them in the freezer if the positive doelings have bucklings. She does still have the other doe and doeling that can be bred......

There is the possibility of selling wethers or butchering them, but that does nothing for BRF's goal of building a herd so she can make some goat's milk soap, and would still, again, set her back from her other goal of 4 milking does.

~shakes her head~

mekasmom, teyze, whatever, why are you attempting to insist that an obviously bad financial/stock problem can be made better by just throwing more time and money at it? Keeping those doelings is NOT free. They eat. They require wormed, vaccinations, blah, blah, blah. It is NOT like they are going to be free to keep for a year. BRF would be much better served by investing that money in clean, disease free goats that will serve her well for years.

I do not understand why you are being so tenacious about this.... unless, of course, you yourself have a diseased herd and you wish to argue, and therefore attempt to justify and validate, your own choices in not culling for disease.

This is NOT a whole herd of producing animals we are talking about. We are discussing a couple of doelings that, for the next year, are going to do nothing but CONSUME RESOURCES... before they MIGHT manage to get bred (CAE does affect reproduction and sometimes keeps does from settling.), so they MIGHT produce some replacements.....

That's a whole lot of investment in diseased stock for some "mights".

BRF already has a healthy, disease-free doe that milks wonderfully for her, and the doeling from her...which is a good start on a healthy, disease-free herd. If she can afford to add another healthy, disease-free doe to her herd, all the better. She will be well on her way to her goals by next spring , then.

(Side note to BRF: POUR milk and feed down that doeling's throat, and she will be big enough for a November/December breeding...but you really gotta sock the calories to her and wean her way late.)

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Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

All I have to say is that I do believe CAE is found more than people think or want to think, but the fact it that we do NOT have real stats because most positive herds AREN'T tested.
I test - have only had one positive and that was a doeling I bought from a show herd that swore in writing I'd get my money back if she was positive when I tested - I tested. She was positive. He lied and I never got my money back. She went with a family friend as a pet - someone I know I can trust - she will never be bred and will die there or be put down when the time comes. At least 75% of the herds I have almost bought from and had tested on my own time before buying have been positive or admitted to have positive animals - that doesn't count the many herds who said they never test- which almost assure positive animals.
I think you'll have a good idea of how many are positive in your state or area when you start trying to buy and test yourself - it was a shocking thing for me.
Almost everyone I know that makes an effort to get clean animals has encounterd a CAE positive animal - even if they didn't buy it and bring it home - they tested and before buying found out - but only one has encountered CL - so in this area, it seems CAE might be more common.
I agree, but we have members we likely respect on here - at least I do - Roseanna for example - that has managed it with success. . . so I don't want to beat up on someone who thinks you can manage it because it seems it can be done. I don't personally have the time to manage it.

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Roseanna has managed it with success and is working towards eradicating it from her herd. Creamers, hon, that is WAY different from defending the idea of propagating, or telling people it is no big deal. I respect Roseanna deeply. There is a local lady that has a disease infested herd and she has JUST STARTED the measure to manage and eradicate it from her herd. She has my respect also.

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Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

Yes, a lot of us have managed CAE at one time or another. I had many CAE positive does years ago when I ran the goat dairy. I did pull the kids and feed them on cow milk to break the CAE cycle. I would never say its not a viable option(though VERY time consuming). Its a personal choice. No one should push you toward one decision or another.
As for the OP, I was under the impression that she had already made her culling decision. That she was only asking about the management until she culled. Thus, the reason I answered the way I answered.
I do say though, that unless the lines involved are highly desirable for one reason or another, culling is safer and easier for the average newbie.

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Emily Dixon
Ozark Jewels
Nubians & Lamanchas
www.ozarkjewels.net

"Remember, no man is a failure, who has friends" -Clarence

I never said anything about it being no big deal - I don't feel anyone has in this thread - they have simply said you can manage it, and we know that is true - I have simply reminded people that some here have done it that have more experience than I do or most of us here and had success, so I am not sure we must beat up on people if they ask - can they manage it? - Emily and Rosenna both have done so - they probably have more experience than many of us combined.

Also, if you're raising on CAE prevention anyway, I am not sure how much more work you're really putting in -

I personally don't have time to manage it - I test and dam raise - all neg. here -
I wouldn't buy a CAE doe - but I've talked to some big breeders that had a lot of money in genetics they did not want to loose - they managed it with success. . .

I just hate to tell people CULL, CULL and Cull when they have a viable option IF the genetics are right and they have the time to do so - I don't, so it ISN'T a personal option.

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If I already had them separated, I would just leave them that way since you plan on culling them anyway.

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Oh, and I will admit to being paranoid. We didn't have a way to separate Lacey and once we knew she was positive, as heart breaking as it was to put her down, I couldn't wait for her to kid so we could. I KNOW that its rare for it to pass from doe to doe. BUT, that doesn't take away that seed of doubt in the back of your mind that whispers "What if"

Given the option, I would never house positive animals with negative animals. Since I can't keep them separate (and since I don't ever want the heart break of a symptomatic doe again) I will not ever have a positive doe here again for any reason.

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People that have worked and invested to have clean herds tend to be rabid about disease testing and culling positive animals. Often, they have done it to GET their clean herds. Very few of us started out knowledgeable enough to buy clean, tested animals and have never had to deal with a culling disease.

That being said, I have noticed goat people come in two groups on this issue:

1) People who have tested, clean herds, and will vehemently tell others to get tested, clean stock and cull any positives without a backwards glance.

2) People who have diseased herds, or suspect they have diseased herds, who will downplay testing (Oh, there can always be mistakes! It's not reliable! Maybe your boyfriend DOESN'T have herpes!), and heavily put forth how the Disease Nazis overstate EVERYTHING.

If a person belongs to the second group and, through some effort of their own or through the winds of fate achieves having a disease free, tested, clean herd, they will IMMEDIATELY switch to the first group, stating that they would never, ever, ever, willingly have or keep a positive goat.

Therefore, it is very easy to see who has untested and/or diseased herds.

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Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

I think this is rather like saying that there are only Republicans and Democrats in the entire world and they all believe the same things. Is that a true statement? No.

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I'm an environmentalist, left wing, Ron Paul loving Prius driver with a farm. If you have a problem with that, kindly go take a leap.

~smiles~ Your analogy is not applicable, since Republican/Democrat parties are specific to the U.S.

There are three kinds of herds in the ENTIRE WORLD:

Clean herds. (Regularly tested, or previously tested and now closed. Health status known and disease free.)
Un-tested herds. (Never been tested, disease status unknown.)
Diseased herds. (Known to have disease within the herd, either through testing or through symptoms.)

That's it. The second category is the most numerous in the entire world also.

NO ONE with a working brain cell in their heads is going to go from the second or third category and, after their efforts to achieve the first category, willingly go back to an unknown or diseased health status.

Seriously, just how stupid would that be?

"Well, I used to not know the health of my herd, or I knew they were diseased...then I went through the time and expense to have all of my goats tested and discovered that they tested negative through three testing cycles, OR they tested positive and I spent MORE time and effort eradicating disease from my herd, and now have three clean testing cycles down pat... so now I am going to risk that clean status, even though I can charge more for kids coming from a tested, clean herd, by knowingly bringing a diseased animal in. That sounds like an intelligent, sensible idea."

Riiiiiiiiggghhhttt. That happens all the time. Really.

Lessee, I'll put up a poll and we'll poll some of the 5,000 or so active members on this board.

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Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

That's a pretty good job at assuming you know everything about people who may or may not have CAE+ herds. If you're going to get upset about people using "inflammatory" language, it would be nice if you'd refrain from lumping all of those who may have positive herds into one group and assume you know what they think or do.

I have a family milk goat who is CAE positive. I bought her before I knew anything about CAE, and by the time I tested her a few months later and the test came back positive, I decided I liked her too much to get rid of her. She was asymptomatic and still is (2 yrs later). She was dam raised but her dam lived to be 13 and asymptomatic. I have since pulled all kids and raised them on replacer, and they've all done well. I'm keeping a doe kid from her this year and they're pastured together. The kid has never nursed from her. I'm not about to sell my doe, even if she is positive.

When I first found out about her being positive I freaked out. Then, I calmed down and did some reading. The fact is there ARE sometimes false positives. And it is a very manageable disease. If my doe ever gets too arthritic or suddenly stops producing, then I'll have to euthanize her.

I understand why people are "paranoid" about keeping a disease free herd, because it takes money and hard work to get there. I would never look down on someone for doing that, just as I would not look down on someone keeping positive animals. I would only have issues if someone is knowingly selling positive animals without telling the buyer- that is just unethical.

And I worry WAY more about CL than CAE.

i would never ever tell others how to manage their herd. only tell what i do here with my animals.

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Susanne Stuetzler
Ain-ash-shams
Nubian Dairy Goats

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