Sad CL Ad
 

And in this case, CL means both Craigslist and CL the disease.

http://fayar.craigslist.org/grd/2441317747.html

:bored:

It was removed. I'm curious now! What did it say?

The poster of the ad acknowledged that the goat had tested positive for CL, and she wanted $125 or $150, I can't remember. I flagged it and sent the person an email asking why she was selling a goat that could pass disease to humans.

The part that got me was she thought it was a deal, and acted like people would be lined up to purchase this goat and she wouldn't hold it for anyone, decent milk goat y'know.

Yes very sad ad, but had me chuckling.

HF

Alice, I'm glad you said something! I thought that maybe I should, but I lacked the nerve.

What worried me most was that she was using her for milk! What if she got an abcess in her udder? Yikes.

The way I see it, at least she was being honest. Now her ad will appear in a week with no mention of CL to be sold to an unsuspecting buyer. Either way she's selling the goat.

I did not flag it intentionally.
HF

Cl isn't the end
 

10% buffered formalin injected in the cyst will save the goat.

yuk, yuk and did i say yuk? no, it will not safe the goat at all.
how low do we need to go? there is no cure for cl. this is a disease of the lymphatic system and even if you think you treat an external abscess, the ones that are inside on the lung for example (coughing will spread it to any warm blooded creature) you don't see.
i would never ever buy a goat from somebody that think this is an easy to treat disease. it is absolutely not.

Chuka, unfortunately, your information is just wrong. Eliminating one cyst does not make the goat free of the disease. It's systemic and manifests itself in cysts, both on the surface and internally.

And FORMALIN in a food producing animal? IN an animal at ALL? Extra yuck. :(

I thought it was a good thing that she was honest.

However, she either does not understand or is choosing to ignore the risk CL poses to humans (and other mammals). That is a BAD thing.

Even if an injection could help, you can't inject abcesses you can't see.

Well, it is definitely not worth $125 or $150.

Susanne-- Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis, the bacteria that causes CL in goats has never had a case of documented airborne spread to humans. From sheep to sheep, yes, but never from goat to human. Actually there has never been a documented case of Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis spread from goat to human at all be it airborne or by direct contact. That information you posted is simply not true in the studies done on the disease. If you find a scientific study that shows it, I would be interested in seeing it. There have been rare cases of sheep to human spread, but never any documented cases of caprine to human. In fact it is very rarely ever spread to humans at all. It's not that easy to catch.

wrong information. cl is a zoonotic disease, means humans can get this too.
i actually know somebody that got infected with cl from sheep. it was very painful and he needed to be hospitalized twice. surgical removal of abscess on the neck and a couple of days intravenous antibiotics. there is no cure for humans either. just treatment every time and abscess forms.

Abstract of article about human lymphadenitis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9114145

It has been spread to humans, if not airborne, through milk.

Those were all from sheep, except one they suggested perhaps came from iguana. I am aware of that, and have cited the study a few times. It was a total of 22 cases over a several year period of time within that whole nation. And the study itself examines ten specific cases all from sheep spread to humans. I have never seen any documented cases of spread from goats though. And there have never been any caprine examples of airborne spread that I can find studies of at all.
It is a bacteria, therefore zoonotic, but not easy for humans to catch. It is very rare in humans, and the vast majority of cases come from sheep.

I just know the vets at the clinic were not concerned about it in goats at all. I specifically asked about it when I worked there, and they talked about several studies that proved how rare it is to spread to humans. It's such a shame that it is so blown out of proportion all over the internet because it just isn't something for people to be so very fearful of at all. People have a much greater chance of picking up a parasite rather than corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis from their goats or even from their sheep for that matter. I mean I saw the vets wear gloves when dealing with lumps that came in, but they weren't fearful of catching the disease. They just excised them, threw away the ick, stuck iodine in the hole then sent the animals home with their farmers. It wasn't a big deal at all to them. Sometimes they would give the animal an injection of Penn G, but not always when they excised them. I guess it depended on how deep they had to cut? Not sure on what made them choose to give antibiotic or not.

Just take time to look up all the studies you can find. It is not statistically that big of an issue in sheep to human spread at all, and almost nothing in humans. I have never found even one case of caprine-human spread. Believe the science not the hype when you look for facts.

As far as somebody who knows somebody who had a brother whose wife's dad had it, etc. That is just not documented science, but stories like that are rampant on the web. It is such a shame that there is so much hype, and outright exaggeration, over it on the web because it is so very, very rare. It's like being afraid of a meteor falling through your roof and onto your bed, killing you as you sleep or any other super rare occurrence. It possibly could happen, but it is so uncommonly rare that there isn't a reason to spend so much energy fearing it.

and you have documented scientific studies to site to prove this? Or just what some body posted as an opinion on the web?

You should actually look for the science behind those claims you read or hear about before you believe them. I have never been able to find a documented case spread by milk ever. If you find one, I would love to see the study. This is a topic that highly interests me because it is so sad to see so many humans afraid for no reason.

All righty, makes me want to go right out and buy some goats with CL. Maybe I'll rub myself all over their abscesses and not shower for a week and see what happens.

This is just a bit off topic, but still about CL. Last discussion we mentioned horses. Someone mentioned horses didn't get the disease. I had also read that horses couldn't get the disease because it was a different form of the bacteria in equine or something. I found a study on it looking through sites. It is in horses according to this study. Since I would believe a scientific study before just some haphazard comment some lay people posted on the web, I would have to believe equine does carry the same bacteria.
See line 6-8 under the the 1. Introduction heading on this study.
http://www.inta.gov.ar/bariloche/inf...i%20Coryne.pdf

That is very interesting to know.

Yes, I've actually read of cases over the last few years - I don't save links and so forth on such things, but I am sure I can go pull them up - or someone else here will before I can.
Anyone who really cares will look up the info and see for themselves. . .I would imagine.

This is one that turned up in a quick search -
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9114145

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3862684 - not the same strain, but again - shows Corynebacterium is carried through milk to people -

and http://www.hpa-standardmethods.org.u...df/bsopid2.pdf

The reason for the documentation with sheep and not goats is probably due to the fact that there is hardly any documentation re goats on anything. Australia has a giant sheep industry that is supported by government research. And probably hundreds of thousands of sheep are butchered for each goat in the world- the documentated cases of human contracting the disease were mostly in meat processors.
And CL is not a reported disease in the US.
And I'm not surprised that some vets were not worried about CL- when I took one my goats into the vet to have an abscess drained, the vet was just going to do it with her ungloved hand. I told her it could spread to people if it was CL- she said "No it doesn't." I said "Yes it can." I did see she went and put on a glove and then had the area disinfected afterwards. Goat training is not a biggie in vet schools.

This is a sheep case of 22 people with one that they mention had contact with iguana. The case was an in depth look at 10 of the 22 people. None of these were spread from milk, but rather handling of sheep. You can open the PDF file of the study itself, and read it. It is sheep.

The third study is on diptheria not CL bacteria corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis. It's like the fact that chicken pox is part of the herpes virus, but very different than the genital form of the disease or the oral form. They are both corynebacterium, but different strains.
The second study was a single case of Corynebacterium ulcerans not corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis. It is a different disease bacterium. This one did spread by milk, but it wasn't corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis. I have spent hours and hours on google scholar looking for just one case of corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis spread in milk, and I can't find a single one.
I mean the exact same viral class that causes parvo in dogs causes fifth's disease in humans, but they are very different viruses that just happen to be from the same strain. Same here. Not CL bacteria, a different class.

Yup, sheep. But it's a disease that can pass between species, and to humans.

Better safe than sorry, and you don't know everyone's family health situation re: immune systems, general health, etc.

Recommending that we take this disease less seriously is irresponsible.

Mekasmom - Are you saying that CL can NOT be spread from goat to human? Period. The End. Can't Happen?

this is so very true. goats are hardly funded for anything. that is why we have mostly meds that are either for cattle or sheep. not much labeled for goats.


mekasmom i did see the big abscess on the neck from this farmer. not just something i heard from somebody. and yes he got it from sheep but i would not take the slightest chance and test if i would not get it from a goat or cow or horse.
this is still a disease that is NOT curable. animals are wasting at the end
and when butchered the inside does not look pretty.

They aren't concerned about it around me either. I know the meat goat raisers around me don't particularly care. The goats are moved through the place so fast that they don't pay that much attention and I've seen raw milk for sale from farms where I KNOW for a fact they have CL there. BUT, I am starting to see more and more ads of goats for sale that have been tested CL free and I am VERY glad to see that! Whether CL can be passed to humans or not, if I'm going to go through all the trouble and money to raise goats, I want the healthiest goats I can get my hands on and then I want them to stay that way. So I definitely wouldn't pay $150 for a goat that I KNOW is sick and can infect the whole herd and the property and POSSIBLY my children. It's just not worth it when I can get a very healthy goat for $150.

I also agree that flagging the ad might not have been all that wise. I agree with an above post that now she'll just re-post it and not say anything about the CL. Sending her a note about CL and letting her make her own decisions about it would have been wiser.

No. It is zoonotic. Any bacteria can spread. But there have been no documented cases of it spreading from caprine to human that I have ever seen, ever in dozens upon dozens of studies. It isn't an easy disease for a human to catch.
I'm saying that what you read over and over and over and over spreading fear on goat boards all over the internet is simply over exaggerated. Keep it in perspective. Too many people are spreading the idea that the bacteria is spreading wildly from goats to their owners, to their other animals, etc. That's just not true according to scientific studies. The hype is way out or proportion to the truth.

You know what else was interesting about the bacteria... I found a study that compared goat CL to sheep CL. Goats have a lot more lumps than sheep get. The goats had a much higher percentage of the bacteria on their tests than the sheep. The authors thought that had something to do with them being rumans. Yet the few people who do catch the disease tend to catch it from sheep. Perhaps rumans have more sensitivity to the bacteria? I don't know, but I thought it was very interesting. Goats get sicker from the disease than sheep do. And goats catch the disease easier apparently if they come into contact with the bacteria. That is interesting.
I will try to look up the link to the study and post it here.

Here's the link, see page two column three and onto the next page.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...00057-0048.pdf

I think it would be crazy to think that you can get a zoonotic,bacterial disease from a sheep, yet when a goat picks up this bacteria and is similarly infected with it it suddenly can't cause infections in people? Just because there is no scientific documentation of such a case? I love how people don't believe something not proven by scientific method to be true. That's the stupid side of science to say it doesn't exist because we haven't proven it does. Well certainly no one has proven it hasn't either and any logical thought would lead to the conclusion that it is highly probable.

Use your head, you don't need someone in a white coat to tell you what to believe.

In horses, it is called pigeon fever.

Mekasmom- Just verifying because your posts seem to propose that CL is no big deal and to not be concerned about it.

And while I agree that some things can get overblown on the net, I do think CL is something to be concerned about and if someone has it in their herd, it should be a big deal - not simply ignored (as your posts seem to imply).

What is a ruman ? :huh:

I would worry about CL as much as I would worry about hoof rot or parasites. Troublesome, yes. Catastrophic, no. I personally wouldn't be terrified of it nor come to tears over it. I wouldn't buy a goat that I knew had it, but it wouldn't be my personal main concern in life either. I just wouldn't let it worry me into a tizzy. In fact, parasites are a much more common spread to humans than CL.

Rumans are animals that have the four stomach digestive system. Cows are not as susceptible to the bacteria, or at least don't get abscesses to the amount that goats do from it. Cows show it as mastitis more often. Here's a link on that. Look at the one about flies perhaps spreading it to cows. That's kind of interesting too. Who knew a fly could spread CL bacteria?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8903139

I think you mean ruminants and sheep are ruminants too !!!!!!:stars:

Sheep have rumans? That I didn't know. I'm not a sheep person, I've only had two of them ever. I will have to look up that study again. I will post it. They had a theory about why CL spreads more in caprine related to their digestve system. I'll post the link to it here when I find it again.

Here's the link to the research. I still need to find the link to the theory about infection rates.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...00057-0048.pdf

http://www.inta.gov.ar/bariloche/inf...i%20Coryne.pdf

yup, and they do get cl too

So CL is no bigger concern than worms - but you wouldn't buy a goat that has it. Why is that? What is the difference between a goat with worms that you would buy but a goat with CL that you would not buy?

I wouldn't knowingly buy a goat with worms either? would you? I wouldn't knowingly buy a got with hoof rot either.

-----

If you have ever bought a goat then you have bought a goat with worms. That is why it is referred to as a worm load or worm burden.