butchering goat with cl abcess?

Heritagefarm · #21 05/10/11, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by okiemom

if you are open to other ideas check out treating the absesses with formilin and the vaccine for cl. There is a way to get cl out of the heard once it is in.

The CL vaccine does not work for goats and could likely do more damage than good. There is little that can currently be done, but we have discussed various methods in the past here, including wholloping doses of antibiotics, bleach on the fields, etc. which might change the pH too much.

mekasmom · #22 05/10/11, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HappyFarmer

"I'd say almost all meat herds have CL, so if you've eaten goat meat from an unknown source, I'd bet the herd had CL"

Actually the statistic is something like just under 80% of goat herds in this nation have been exposed to CL at one time or another. Lets face it, a dog walks across the pasture or a coyote or any other mammal that carries the disease, and the herd is exposed. People are too hyper about it. It is impossible for the majority goat herds to not be exposed to a cross-species zoonotic bacteria at some point. That doesn't mean to purposely go out and find a goat with abscesses then bring it home and drink the milk raw or eat it in a tartar, but people need to calm themselves a bit. It's like being afraid of a widespread disease or MG in poultry flocks or anything else. Take precautions, but don't work yourselves into a tizzy. Are we afraid that the fifteenth person before us who used the cart at WM was positive for HIV? Do we obsess about those fears? Spreading unnecessary fear is not a good thing. What should we do, send people out to their fields with bleach to pour on the ground once a month just in case an infected rabbit crossed the pasture?

Alice In TX/MO · #23 05/10/11, 06:40 PM

Who is in a tizzy?

And... I wipe the cart handle in Wal-Mart. My hubby is immune suppressed, and I'm not bringing home germs from people who don't wash after they go to the bathroom. Most don't.

Keeping the discussion open and active about CL is a good thing. NOBODY is advocating bleaching fields.

Heritagefarm · #24 05/10/11, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mekasmom

Actually the statistic is something like just under 80% of goat herds in this nation have been exposed to CL at one time or another. Lets face it, a dog walks across the pasture or a coyote or any other mammal that carries the disease, and the herd is exposed. People are too hyper about it. It is impossible for the majority goat herds to not be exposed to a cross-species zoonotic bacteria at some point. That doesn't mean to purposely go out and find a goat with abscesses then bring it home and drink the milk raw or eat it in a tartar, but people need to calm themselves a bit. It's like being afraid of a widespread disease or MG in poultry flocks or anything else. Take precautions, but don't work yourselves into a tizzy. Are we afraid that the fifteenth person before us who used the cart at WM was positive for HIV? Do we obsess about those fears? Spreading unnecessary fear is not a good thing. What should we do, send people out to their fields with bleach to pour on the ground once a month just in case an infected rabbit crossed the pasture?

CAE: Is basically impossible to transmit under normal herd conditions.
CL: Is highly contagious.

CAE: Is quite possible to clean your herd of.
CL: Is basically impossible to clean your herd of.

CAE: Is normally not very destructive.
CL: Can wipe out entire herds.

CAE: Is not transmittable to humans.
CL: Is transmittable to humans.

Heritagefarm · #25 05/10/11, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

Keeping the discussion open and active about CL is a good thing. NOBODY is advocating bleaching fields.

I was, but only as a desperate way to kill soil-dwelling CL. Much better to just kill the herd and wait a year.

Pony · #26 05/10/11, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mekasmom

Actually the statistic is something like just under 80% of goat herds in this nation have been exposed to CL at one time or another. Lets face it, a dog walks across the pasture or a coyote or any other mammal that carries the disease, and the herd is exposed. People are too hyper about it. It is impossible for the majority goat herds to not be exposed to a cross-species zoonotic bacteria at some point. That doesn't mean to purposely go out and find a goat with abscesses then bring it home and drink the milk raw or eat it in a tartar, but people need to calm themselves a bit. It's like being afraid of a widespread disease or MG in poultry flocks or anything else. Take precautions, but don't work yourselves into a tizzy. Are we afraid that the fifteenth person before us who used the cart at WM was positive for HIV? Do we obsess about those fears? Spreading unnecessary fear is not a good thing. What should we do, send people out to their fields with bleach to pour on the ground once a month just in case an infected rabbit crossed the pasture?

I find it a little disconcerting that some people are incredibly glib about such a nasty disease.

IF people were a little more concerned about CL, we would have a much lower incidence in this country.

Great Britain, for instance, has only an 8% CL rate, compared to our 80% CL rate. The difference? People there are "obsessed" about eradicating -- or at least minimalizing -- CL.

Unlike people in the States who accuse others of crying "wolf" about it...

HappyFarmer · #27 05/10/11, 10:15 PM

Just for the record the above that quotes me was a quote in itself. Those were not my words.

I am a huge advocate of clean herds including (or in this case excluding) CL. As I stated previously those statistics are not accurate, they are a guess. Nothing more, nothing less, used to make point being made at the time for whomever paid for the study. Once again, an 80% statistic may be accurate from the pool of goats taken to slaughter at certain slaughter houses, but one must remember that those numbers come from a pool of animals where say 1000 animals came from 20 farms, which of course skews the numbers claiming to represent the US herd population. Also one must remember those at the slaughter house are the intended slaughter animals AND the culls of the herds. Those numbers also do not include on the hoof/farm sales or home slaughters.

Interesting & comparitivly the CAE numbers I quoted prior of 81% CAE vs. 31% CAE prevailance, for example, came from something like 24 states and 28 states respectively. Big difference there by adding locales and possibly herds of cleaner origin.

Nonetheless dairy AND meat breeders should be working to irradicate these devastating diseases, and that includes CAE AND Johne's in addition to CLA. To do otherwise is irresponsible and a continuous threat to the industries well being, IMO.

These diseases are an issue in both meat AND Dairy.

HF

mekasmom · #28 05/11/11, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pony

Great Britain, for instance, has only an 8% CL rate, compared to our 80% CL rate. The difference? People there are "obsessed" about eradicating -- or at least minimalizing -- CL.

Both CAE and CL are reportable diseases in Britian where the farmers are compensated for destroyed herds. That isn't so in this nation. It's not even reportable. There is no way to eradicate it here unless we know where it is, and have a mandatory quarantine/destruction plan at a federal level. And do we really want more government oversight of our private lands and herds? And, with CL, it is a zoonotic anaerobic bacteria. There is never going to be a way to eradicate it simply because of what it is.

But on boards like this where people scream about it killing people all the time, and talk like masses are infected with it every year, it scares people. It dissuades some from even having goats which is such a shame. Spreading unrealistic panic is not good. Cook the meat. It will kill bacteria. People all over this world live on goat meat, and very few places report the disease or test for it. Yet somehow, society survives. Let's be realistic in our posting. How many people a year worldwide die of corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis based infections? Less than 1000, and probably less than 100, but since not every nation reports causes of death we will assume more than are listed. And how many of those who die get the bacterial from consuming goat meat? Then compare those numbers to the vast number of people all over this world who rely on goat as their main source of protein and milk which is something like 70% of the world population. It's not something to stir up a panic over. You have more of a chance of catching many other bacterial diseases not caused by corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis. If you want to be afraid of something, then think about the resistant parasites in caprine because you are much more likely to catch those rather than CL. And parasites kill more people worldwide than corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis does. And it is impossible for you to catch CAE, so you don't have to worry about that in relationship to your health at all. At least be realistic in your imaginations and fears. Unless you are opening an abscess and licking up the ick out of it, you are probably never going to catch the disease, and statistically, you probably wouldn't even catch it if you did that because your stomach acid would kill it. We need to keep things in perspective. It is just not common for the disease to spread to humans, and it is highly unlikely for it to be the cause of death especially in this nation. It is zoonotic and can spread to humans, yes. But it is a rare spread, not a common one. And cooking the meat will kill the bacteria anyway.

Alice In TX/MO · #29 05/11/11, 07:27 AM

With all due respect, nobody is screaming. Nobody is claiming that masses are dying. Good grief. YOU are spreading those ideas. No one else. Let's be realistic in YOUR claims, too, please.

We were having a polite conversation, I thought. Mostly.

southerngurl · #30 05/11/11, 08:49 AM

Bleaching your field wouldn't work as organic matter nuetralizes bleach.

mekasmom · #31 05/11/11, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

With all due respect, nobody is screaming. Nobody is claiming that masses are dying. Good grief. YOU are spreading those ideas. No one else. Let's be realistic in YOUR claims, too, please.

We were having a polite conversation, I thought. Mostly.

I am being polite. I am just saying be realistic and look at the statistics. Some boards, not just on this site, but others too, cause an unrealistic fear of catching the diseases from goats. It is rare, not common. And, the two diseases mentioned by someone else are much less commonly transmitted to humans world wide than simple parasites. In fact CAE is not transmitted to humans at all, not once, not ever. And we really don't have to be afraid of those parasites so much in this nation because we have very effective treatments, although they kill many more thousands of humans world wide than corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis ever does.

Heritagefarm · #32 05/11/11, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mekasmom

And, with CL, it is a zoonotic anaerobic bacteria. There is never going to be a way to eradicate it simply because of what it is.

With all due respect, CL is actually fucultative and capable of anaerobic respiration and fermentation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by southerngurl

Bleaching your field wouldn't work as organic matter nuetralizes bleach.

Do you think it would destroy bacteria before being neutralized by the OM?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mekasmom

I am just saying be realistic and look at the statistics.

What statistics? I am not aware of any...

mekasmom · #33 05/11/11, 10:08 AM

Some links on the bacteria in relation to humans--
http://books.google.com/books?id=Utx...humans&f=false

http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/20103120190.html

http://www.inta.gov.ar/bariloche/inf...i%20Coryne.pdf

http://jb.asm.org/cgi/content/full/193/1/323

Most of them say human infections of the bacteria are rare. Considering the mass numbers of societies in the world where goats are the primary source of protein, and reporting the disease is not mandatory nor is testing, and the fact that those humans are living, procreating and growing in population, it's not something to be extravagantly afraid of. Be aware of it, cook meat, wear gloves when you butcher, but don't loose sleep over worrying about it. And think about the fact that they only found 31 human cases of the disease in all those nations for the one study. That is a pretty low number considering the number of people who have sheep/goats and deal with them. It's just not an overly huge number of cases for the amount of humans in question.

Heritagefarm · #34 05/11/11, 10:41 AM

Also take into account that many of these nations are not actually healthy. Also be aware that, since a lot of these areas with diseased goats are going to be third world, reporting of disease causes are going to be minimal.

southerngurl · #35 05/11/11, 11:43 AM

I wouldn't be that afraid for me, but rather, for my herd.

okiemom · #36 05/11/11, 01:38 PM

Where is it said the vaccine doesent work? it is now for goats. you can get special vaccines for it as well. I have yet to meet anyone with it an there are many goat people in Ok. Most of them are traders who I know dont mess with quarintining goats. Most of the goats that go through a auction will be exposed.

mekasmom · #37 05/11/11, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by okiemom

Where is it said the vaccine doesent work? it is now for goats. you can get special vaccines for it as well.

Is it out for caprine now? In the past people simply used the sheep vaccine. I knew they were developing a goat variation, but didn't know it was out? What is the name of the vaccine? It would make sense that the sheep one would work in the caprine though because we use a very similar vaccine for diphtheria in this nation, and it works. And cow pox vaccine worked to wipe out small pox. Many times those cross species vaccines do work.

okiemom · #38 05/11/11, 01:59 PM

jeffers sells it. goat world also talks about it. there is still not enough economic pushing to get the ag world to get serious about this issue. ps. if you do vaccinate with it as I do. it can give false info when you try to test. If there is a vaccine it would be better to prevent it than try to fix it. There are many good articles about prevention AND control if it is in your herd. Formalin will work. prevention is better. I prefer to vaccinate.

coso · #39 05/11/11, 02:06 PM

If you read, it is still just labeled for sheep, though some goat people use it.

thaiblue12 · #40 05/11/11, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by okiemom

Where is it said the vaccine doesent work? it is now for goats. you can get special vaccines for it as well. I have yet to meet anyone with it an there are many goat people in Ok. Most of them are traders who I know dont mess with quarintining goats. Most of the goats that go through a auction will be exposed.

No they do not. It is for sheep and it causes more harm then good and it is NOT recommended for use on goats. While some things for horses and cows we can use this is not one of them.

If you are thinking CL Perfringens is for CL it is not that is for overeating disease and a part of the CD&T vaccine.

Colorado Serum has been promising the CL vaccine for goats for a few years now and still have yet to produce it.