Is Banding really inhumane?

thaiblue12 · #21 03/28/11, 11:16 AM

Creamers have you been reading Fiasco Farms?

I have a burdizzo, I cannot use it. It takes a hand strength I do not have. I can lift hay bales, feed etc but this is a different kind of strength.
They also scream like you are killing them with the burdizzo. I practiced on a lady's goats not my own. I took the one who had broken her jaw first. Figured it would bother me less since he was such a booger. While his screaming was not personal like one of mine would have been it was still hard to hear, plus he screamed directly into my left ear lol.

I band, my daughter gives them animal crackers, I band them and they do not notice. I give them kids pain reliever and only one was truly a drama queen about it and made me think he was dying, yes dying! The rest may lay around for a bit, lick the area, etc.

While I would prefer to burdizzo but the amount of force needed to crush and the screaming makes me wonder which is less painful. I ended up banding that lady's goats

Rockytopsis · #22 03/28/11, 11:42 AM

Signs are right today and tomorrow for castrating, so we banded our boys today. We did the same last year and it worked out real good.
Like some have said "It has to be done" Banding is our prefered method.
Nancy

wintrrwolf · #23 03/28/11, 11:43 AM

Same here thai I know I would not have the strength needed to crush with a burdizzo plus having to hold ...umm no
I banded one buckling that I kept back for a companion for buck, it went pretty easy, no infection, the sack shriveled up then was gone. Never saw any rotting, kid was depressed for about half a day then back to playing with his brother.
To crush or band? I think it will end up being a personal decision for you and what you think you can handle. I personally would never cut unless I am capable or set up to separate and monitor the incision for infection, higher probability for infection anytime there is a wound.
The hardest part of the banding was making sure it was placed correctly.

Pony · #24 03/28/11, 12:01 PM

Banding seems, to me, to be far more humane than crushing the whole works with the burdizzo.

Srsly.

Bucklings I've had banded didn't mind it anywhere NEAR as much as they minded being disbudded.

Never heard of banding dogs, though. Wish I'd have known about that one sooner, as I have two pups coming up on a year old who need to be castrated soon.

Creamers · #25 03/28/11, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Creamers have you been reading Fiasco Farms?

Yes - I had read it all before, but then read it again and felt terrible! lol!

As to dogs, not something I would recommend since they can reach the area, as mentioned above. . .could be a disaster!

Wolf Flower · #26 03/28/11, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creamers

Yes - I had read it all before, but then read it again and felt terrible! lol!

I am not sure why Fias co Farm thinks banding is inhumane, especially after seeing my boy go through it without a hitch. They must have had a bad experience.

MrsSurplus · #27 03/28/11, 12:43 PM

I think the argument is that, with crushing or castrating, the pain is intense and then it's over. Obviously, there is the healing time particularly with castrating - but it sounds like (for a really rotten, but necesary procedure) crushing the cord is painful and then it's pretty much over with. Castration takes a while to heal (we cut our calves) and banding takes a while for the process. Crushing sounds like it is immediately painful but then you're done. I've never wethered a goat at all - so I'm just talking from my perspective from personally cutting pigs and the fact that my DH cuts our calves - I honestly think "banding" was developed, in part, because it's easier on US. Castration is bloody and acutely painful for the animal. It sounds like crushing the cord is, understandably, acutely painful. Banding, is less dramatic and WE are done with it. They are left to deal with the fall out - if you'll pardon the innuendo. When it comes time for us to deal with that with our goats I would like to use the burdizzo. Hubby will want to cut. We'll see what we decide to do

Rechellef · #28 03/28/11, 12:56 PM

I have had to band one and cut one lamb (crypto) and frankly the cut lamb acted like nothing happened as did the banded lamb. However, our banded goat was "off" for a couple of days, but back to normal before we knew it. Banding is easier to do and each animal responds differently to each procedure. Out vet says he offers to cut 1/2 a herd and band the other half and let the owner decide which is less stressful on the animal. Both are effective and both have something undesireable about them, but either way it does have to be done for good herd management. Personally, I will have my lambs and kids cut next season because it did seem to cause a little less stress for my animals.

Lada · #29 03/28/11, 01:02 PM

I have only banded once, and the little dude seriously did not act like anything was wrong. He didn't like being restrained, but other than that he didn't complain at all.

madness · #30 03/28/11, 01:03 PM

We've had the goats cut and banded. I didn't like either procedure!

On advice from the woman we got our sheep from, we had them cut and took in our only goat to be wethered. The vet actually put them completely under and did the procedure so I'm sure that was the least painful initial part. But by the time we goat them home, they all looked awful. The goat wouldn't eat for almost 2 days - even with painkillers. I thought he might actually die. One of the sheep busted his wound open and bled all over the place. It was impossible to keep the area cleaned. Bad, bad experience and absurdly expensive to boot.

So last year we got the elastrator and had a neighbor (who does show goats) demonstrate. The two boys we did WAILED and laid on their sides panting all day. The bands were in the right place. They walked funny and acted in real pain for over a week. It was probably 2 weeks before I think they were pain free. It was horrible! We did a third guy too - much younger, maybe a week old. He stood hunch backed for about 30 minutes and then was normal. So my take home message was "the younger the better".

I haven't done burdizzo, but I've also heard the stories of it not "taking". Other than that, it actually sounds somewhat better to me than banding.

thaiblue12 · #31 03/28/11, 01:19 PM

True the burdizzo may not take and by the time you find out you may have surprise kids

Banding should not hurt so much and for so long afterward, even my drama queen was fine after 2-3 days. It is suppose to cut off the circulation and suppose to go numb after a few hours. But who knows if it does for all of them.
All I know is despite be banded one buckling managed to impregnate two of my does! Now if it was a human with a band around his parts he would be rolling around on the ground screaming instead of using it, lol.

Cutting seems to be the worst and most painful to me plus it leaves the area open for flies and infection.

Pony banding dogs is considered animal cruelty in most areas. You can be fined and or charged with it. They are not livestock, it hurts them far worse and they can chew the area to pieces which is why you never heard of it being done. I pay my local shelter $50 to neuter my male dogs, and $25 for cats safer and far far more humane. To me if I had to, I would pay more to have it done safely and humanely.

6e · #32 03/28/11, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muleskinner2

I use the same bander on my goats, that I use on my dogs. In over forty years I have never had a problem.

You use a bander on dogs??? I've heard you can't band dogs because they'll lick it, chew it and just generally make a mess of things?

Creamers · #33 03/30/11, 01:21 AM

Banded him tonight - he didn't make a peep - but i did give banamine about 30 minutes prior - he just jumped down and went off on his merry way. . .

dieseldoctor · #34 09/09/13, 12:27 PM

Ok so I know this is an old thread..... And ok I know i'm an Idiot (one for buying animals without researching, and 2 for making every single mistake possible) 4 male pygmy goats,got horns and use of their reproductive organs, no shots etc etc..... I want to band them so before they start to stink (lol), I bought the tool and bands now I need a video or someone to instruct me on how it's done. I have the general Idea. I thought(?) testes just magically fell off after banding and I guess that's not the case. Please need help. Aw crap one more for the books....

Walt

o&itw · #35 09/09/13, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LFRJ

When I was three, I got vaccinated. I still have the proverbial round dime size scar on my shoulder that we all got back in the sixties. I'm sure it HURT and I did not like it. I don't remember it though, and am grateful I was put through it (though apparently not at the time). I imagine if I could ask our wether about his banding, he'd say the same.

That was a smallpox vaccination. They didn't hurt at all (they weren't an injection, they simply scratched the surface of the skin a bit and applied the vaccine). What was a pain, was that the thing then scabbed over and itched worse than poison ivy for a couple of weeks..... and one couln't scratch it.

Buy the way shouln't it be termed "incaprine" ?

Otter · #36 09/09/13, 01:53 PM

There are many other ways to hold them. Honestly, my daughter holds a bottle, I sit on the floor behind and handle the banding and they never know what happened.

It takes a few weeks to fall off. It's not gross or anything. Honestly, I doubt it's painful, I think it just feels weird. When you were a kid did you ever put a rubber band around your finger? My cousin used to put one around his finger and then stick a pin in it when it got numb, to scare his little brother - at least till his mother caught him at it!!
That's not painful, and you've got a bone in your finger, so the circulation doesn't cut off as completely and so you keep sensation much longer. So actually I think it's the most humane way to castrate.

Doug Hodges · #37 09/09/13, 03:51 PM

I don't even like reading this thread. I decided to not wether anything. Im selling or eating most of the boys anyway and if they are like all other animals, they will grow better without it.

**mygoat** · #38 09/09/13, 04:54 PM

@Doug, if you decide not to wether anything, You'll have to wean buck kids at 8 weeks old. Yes, they can breed their sisters and mothers as early as that. After weaning you'll need additional areas to house young bucklings that cannot be in with the doe herd, can't be in with their sisters, and will have the snot beat out of them (or just repeatedly raped) by their fathers if kept in the buck pen (at least that was my experience... ew). Wethering is NOT THAT BAD and is a huge management advantage IMO. Wethering young is FAR, FAR less stressful on them and chances are your buyers aren't all going to be looking for intact bucks. Depending on the season, intact bucks may be hard to sell and less desireable even at auctions. The older they get, the more they get dinged on the slaugter price at auction, if there isn't an ethnic holiday that prefers intact YOUNG bucklings (usually around 40lbs).

Please, please, please do not sell every buckling as 'breeding quality'. Just because it has testes, does not mean it should use them. 99% of bucklings born ought to be wethered. It irks me when people say that every buckling they had born went to be a herdsire. Blegh.

Usually with dairies, I band them at a couple days of age and sell them for 25.00 on the bottle. If you don't want to bottle them, advertise after birth and have people pick them up and pull them right off the dam. If that is the only kid, you can start milking right then. If she has otehr kids and she can't hear her sold kid hollering, she won't even notice he's gone. They sell fast, aren't taking up space and milk, and I don't have to mess with them/vaccinate/cocci prevention/deworm (all added expenses).

Will they grow better? They *might* be bigger framed (our wethers don't grow slower for the growout period - 40-60lbs) but they *will* probably be leaner esp as they approach 6 months old or so. Usually the meat quality is lessened as well, the older they get. They just don't put fat on like wethers do, and fat is desireable for flavor.

Just my .02.

Doug Hodges · #39 09/09/13, 05:32 PM

I like the sell quick and forget them idea.

Thought I better edit. I have to get rid of them quick or my wife and kids might get attached and I will be stuck with them.

Minelson · #40 09/09/13, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dieseldoctor

Ok so I know this is an old thread..... And ok I know i'm an Idiot (one for buying animals without researching, and 2 for making every single mistake possible) 4 male pygmy goats,got horns and use of their reproductive organs, no shots etc etc..... I want to band them so before they start to stink (lol), I bought the tool and bands now I need a video or someone to instruct me on how it's done. I have the general Idea. I thought(?) testes just magically fell off after banding and I guess that's not the case. Please need help. Aw crap one more for the books....

Walt

How old are they?