Polled or not?
 

My ND doe had quads Feb 18th. That means they are 2 1/2 weeks old. The boys I am sure are not polled. but I am really unsure about the other two girls.

I shaved their heads today in preparation for disbudding. But these guys are so different than I have ever had before. Usually by now the kids are overdue to be disbudded.

White boy
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23/smwon/Whiteboy.jpg

White girl
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23.../whitegirl.jpg

Brown girl
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23.../browngirl.jpg

Brown boy
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23/smwon/brownboy.jpg

The pictures are not real clear, but can you give any advice? Both the boys buds are pointed, but both the girls are buttons... as a matter of fact the brown girls are almost non-existent.

.................

Thank you! I was thinking much the same... I have never seen a polled goat, but I know the white girl does not look like any other kid I have had, especially not at 2 1/2 weeks!

If you hadn't of shaved them, normally a horned goat will have little cow licks over the horn buds. Polled goats lack those cow licks and it looks more like bangs.

I have pictures of them unshaved...

Brown girl
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23...rlunshaved.jpg

Brown boy
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23...oyunshaved.jpg

White girl
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23...rlunshaved.jpg

White boy (definitely horned!)
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23...oyunshaved.jpg

I can't tell on the brown girl as the hair on top of her head gives the illusion of a cow lick, but I think the white girl and brown boy are polled. On the top one if it looks the same with no swirls over the buds then she's polled too.

I don't think any of them but the white boy had swirls... but I am sure the brown boy is horned because he has tiny, tiny points. The girls don't, especially the white girl. I may have the pictures mixed up too because even though it looks like it should be easy to tell which is which, it isn't as easy as you'd think once the pictures are taken and on my computer!

Sometimes polled boys will seem to get little points and when grown, they'll get bony protrusions out of the top of their heads. But if there's no swirl, then they're polled. I don't know why that's true, but it is. You might look up some pictures of polled baby goats and how to know the difference just to help.

That is an excellent idea... thank you! I'll do that now...

Relooking at the pics, now that I'm on my computer instead of my iPhone, I would safely say that all 3 are polled except for the white boy.

Also to add, some goats that are indeed polled will get little bumps, but they're still polled. You really have to look for the swirl. :)

Here's a good thread for you with pictures. :)
http://goatbeat.net/index.php?topic=7592.0

Ah! http://www.goatwisdom.com/ch1baby_care/dehorning.html

Polled: The polled kid lacks swirls in the horn area.
http://www.goatwisdom.com/images/polled3.JPG

Horned: The horned kid shows swirls over the horn buds.
http://www.goatwisdom.com/images/horned3.JPG

Mine looks like the polled version... except of course the white boy...

Yep. That's my guess. I think all 3 of the top ones are polled, the white boy is not. :)

WOW! Now how could I get so fortunate??? That is great! Btw, that is the conclusion I have come to also. These just do not fit the normal ND goat horned kids. Not any I have had so far anyways. But now I wonder, where did the polled come from? Both parents are horned. I think anyways. I know the sire was because he still had horns (got the bruises to prove it! lol). The dam, was already disbudded when I got her and she has always produced horned offspring. The only difference this time was I used a different (horned) buck.

I honestly don't know because polled is something that usually at least one parent has to be polled. Are you sure the doe was horned or could she possibly be polled? I will tell you that you shouldn't breed polled to polled. You have to breed polled to horned. I forget the reason why. If you worry about your babies, just keep feeling their heads. If they get little horns start poking up through, then disbud. :) I WISH I had another polled buck. I had one and we had to get rid of him. Wish I could find another one.

I thought they disbudded the doe. Thinking back on it though, now I am not so sure. Possibly they didn't know she was polled? I have couple of pictures of her when she was born... she was one day old. The pictures are not real clear, but maybe they will help.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23...ewdoeling3.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23...oelingcopy.jpg

In those pictures it looks like they had already disbudded her. It's possible that she was polled and they didn't know any better and disbudded her anyway. So, you'll probably never know, except that you're now getting polled babies, which is pretty cool! :)

She was brand new, born the day before... and I know the breeder doesn't do her own disbudding, she has someone else come in and do it. So it is not likely she had been disbudded yet.

However, when I feel her head now, she has 'hollow' spots where she has been disbudded. Her head looks much different than the disbudded Nubian I have though and I know she had horns.

In those pictures there are definite marks where a disbudding iron was applied it looks like. The white is cut in a perfect circle on her head. There are ones that are polled that will end up getting disbudded, so someone is carrying the polled gene. :) If the buck you bred to has horns, then it's your doe. :)

I know she wasn't disbudded at that time. Honest, take my word for it. I have seen enough newly disbudded kids to know that! I took those pictures! She wouldn't let us have her until the dam weaned her, so we didn't get her until she was 3 months old.

My buck had horns for sure... my other buck had horns as well, but we never got polled kids.

Do you know if she started growing horns before she was disbudded? Are all those babies from the same doe?

You are happy about having polled goats? Just curious because I know around here nobody buys them for anything but meat. They go for a lot less money due to the sterility type issues in the lines?

We had polled goats and we never had a sterility issue except when you breed polled to polled. You must breed polled to horned, but other wise I LOVE polled. :)

Well, I think it's great. If she is polled, she has NO sterility issues! Considering she has always bred easily and is very fertile. Her first was twins, then triplets, and then quads... not a problem there.

If it is considered really a bad thing, that may be why they disbudded her anyways. After all not every breeder is honest. She's registered and I paid $300 for her... I don't regret a penny of it either.

Not a clue. She was not socialized and you couldn't get close enough to her to feel her head. Yes all those babies are from the same doe. Quads, two were white and two are brown like their daddy.

That's awesome! :)

In my area people loved polled goats. Congrats they are adorable!!! I think the polled to polled breeding has a high likelihood of producing hermaphrodites?? That is what i herd anyway... But as long as they are bred to horned goats I haven't herd of any issues.

Awe, they are all beautiful!! Sure expanded your goat herd in a hurry. LOL

It did! But the whites I have found a home for... I hope anyways!

I LOVE polled goats too! Doesn't hurt their sale here, I have had several people contact me for polled kids if Sabrina has any. Sabrina is polled, has two polled sisters and her dam is polled.....One sister has triplets on the ground right now, the other sister kidded twins for the second time in December, and Sabrina is preggo and going to pop any day.

I was told that you have a higher chance of hermaphadites when you breed polled to polled, but polled to hornless is okay. :)


And to the OP, congrats on your babies.....they are so cute!

Thanks Crystal!

The genes for horned are double recessive--so both parents with horns can only produce horned kids. Genes for polled can be hetereozygous and homozygous dominant --meaning the parents can be polled and carry both the horned gene and the polled gene. This is why polled goats, even TWO polled goats are capable of having a horned kid (because each polled parent can potentially pass on the recessive horned gene to the offspring). But two horned parents can ONLY make horned babies. You don't want to breed polled to polled because there is potential for freemartins and/or hermaphrodites, but I can tell you my youngest doe is horned and pregnant and she is the product of an mating between two polled goats (her mother and her mother's father. YIKES!). Anyway....
Polled goats also have little knobs on the top of their heads where horns would be if they had them. They are not horns, but bony skull protrusions that remained covered with fur. A hornless disbudded head looks quite different in an adult animal. I have one polled and one disbudded -- the disbudded has a round head, while the polled has the protrusions. I like the look of a disbudded doe better, but when I breed, I wish for polled because I hate disbudding!! :-))

That is very interesting PurpleMartineer. So if indeed any of my kids are polled then it has to be the doe because the buck was definitely horned! This is getting more interesting and intriguing by the minute! I looked on my does papers, it says she was disbudded... I'm still uncertain about some of the kids, but I am just about positive the white doe is polled.

I would just wait and see. If they start getting horns popping up, then disbud, but if you disbud now on the ones in question, you'll never know. To me it would be important to know if that gene is in there. PurpleMartineer is right. Horned is a recessive gene and so breeding horned to horned, you're going to get horned. But a polled goat can carry the horned gene, but will still be polled. You can think of it like a tic tac toe box with only 4 squares. On the left side, outside the box, representing the buck, are two small "h". That's a horned goat. Then across the top, on the outside of the box, representing the doe is a big "H" and a small "h" for a doe that is polled, but carrying the horned gene..represented by the small "h". The 4 squares inside the box represent 4 possible kids. You take the h's from top and side and fill in the box. So, the top left box would be "Hh" (a polled goat carrying horned), the bottom left would also be "Hh" (also a polled goat carrying horned). The top right would be "hh" (a horned goat) and the bottom right would also be "hh" (a horned goat). So if a polled doe carrying the horned gene is bred to a horned buck, in theory, half her kids would be polled carrying the horned gene and half the kids would be horned with no polled gene. LOL A very simple illustration of genetics.