Would you get a horned dairy goat

barelahh · #61 03/07/11, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6e

I have to ask....so it is illegal over seas to disbud or dehorn? Has it always been that way or did they disbud at one time? (I'm just curious)

This debate interests me a great deal as it's primarily only the dairy goat people that disbud. Neither the Angora nor the Boer goat people do this.

While we're off on this, this is our Angora buck "Awesome" who lived to the ripe age of 14 years old and had a 4' horn spread. Never hurt a soul and was the sweetest goat. Yes, by the time he was old his horns were too big to get through a fence, although, I saw him squeeze out a hole in the fence by tipping his head sideways, put one horn through, then his head, then his other horn, then his body. He was no dummy. LOL

Would you get a horned dairy goat - Goats

Would you get a horned dairy goat - Goats

We did have trouble with, when my kids would leave the feed cans out in the paddock, the kids with shorter horns would stick their head into the can and it'd get stuck there.

Anyway, just had to ask that question and share a pic. I see this debate from both sides because we've raised both kinds of goats. I don't believe that the only safe goats are disbudded goats because then the Angoras and the Boers would be dieing off left and right, so I don't necessarily agree with that argument, but I do agree that it seems to make their marketability go down.

I'll tell ya, Awesome was no danger even with his 4' spread. I've managed him even during breeding season and he was as gentle as could be. I want another angora buck and hopefully one day i'll be able to afford one. Horns aren't a problem at all. Secondly, it is rare that i have to rescue my angora from sticking her head through the fence. She does quite well at getting it out. i have more problems with stray barbed wire than i do with fencing. Stray barbed wire will kill a angora fast. They get down and just die, or even black locust seedlings. They grab ahold and bind them down.

I've had dairy goats that were horned, i won't do disbudding, i just can't deal with the pain involved for the goat. I've burned myself before with a soldering iron in electronics repair and know full well the pain of a hot iron.

Besides, i like the control i have over a goat with horns. If i need to grab a hold of them, i grab the horns and have control.

If i get one that gets agressive to humans, they go to freezer camp.

CaliannG · #62 03/07/11, 01:16 PM

~laughs~ Poor wmsff didn't know the can of worms getting opened with THIS question! Sorry about this.

The Great Horn Debate will likely continue until the practice is also outlawed HERE....which as we go more and more global, it is bound to happen. People want to show their super-duper-imported STRAIGHT from the origin of the breed, brand new shiney squeaky goats....and while Europe outlaws disbudding while the U.S. requires it, such intercontinental showing and breeding is impossible.

Such things are slowly happening with dogs too, since American bred German Shepherds and Rottweilers are disqualified from European, African or Asian shows. German breeders of these dogs will NOT send puppies to the U.S. AT ALL, either, because of U.S. practices.

~shrugs~ There is a saying, overseas, and I have even heard it in Hungary: If you REALLY want to screw up an animal, either the particular animal, or the breed of animal, give it to the Americans. They will have it mutilated and messed up in no time at all.

And that such a belief is true is shown right here. ~chuckles and shakes her head~

And so, the Great Horn Debate continues on....and on....and on.......

yarrow · #63 03/07/11, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

~laughs~

Such things are slowly happening with dogs too, since American bred German Shepherds and Rottweilers are disqualified from European, African or Asian shows. German breeders of these dogs will NOT send puppies to the U.S. AT ALL, either, because of U.S. practices.

~shrugs~ There is a saying, overseas, and I have even heard it in Hungary: If you REALLY want to screw up an animal, either the particular animal, or the breed of animal, give it to the Americans. They will have it mutilated and messed up in no time at all.

Okay... you lost me here.. GERMAND SHEPHERDS.. not being exported to the U.S.??? why?? .. ears not cropped/nor tails docked on GSDs.. I'm owned half a dozen imported shepherds.. I was a dog trainer/schutzhund person before the goats stole my heart/time... never owned an american bred german shepherd in my life..never had ANY issues importing GSDs from several European countries.

susanne · #64 03/07/11, 02:19 PM

not sure if that is true? our gsd is imported from europe and our next one will most likely be from germany. husband is going to germany this summer and will be looking for one.

Creamers · #65 03/07/11, 02:59 PM

Quote:

My own philosophy is unchanged; If you cannot afford the proper facilities to keep your animals safe, then you should either not have those animals, or have FEWER animals until it reaches the point where you CAN afford to keep them in safe quarter without having to mutilate them "for their own good".

Plain and simple: If you are relying on the sale of kids to make your dairy goats pay their own way, then your management practices suck. If your goats have to be physically changed to be safe and productive in your facilities, then your facilities suck. If you are relying on animal mutilation to keep your animals safe and productive, rather than expending capital or profit to upgrade your facilities, then you are, JUST LIKE THE FACTORY FARMS, basing your decisions on greed.

And if you are offended by that, then you need to take a good look at yourself and your own ethics and practices.

I disagree based on a adult life spent in vegetarianism (even veganism) and animal rescue - I know animal cruelty when I see it. . .this isn't it.

I think of spaying and neutering dogs/cats - which you may or may not agree with - but I've had more than I can ever numbered "fixed" and even with pain meds - they are VERY uncomfortable. . .sometimes have bad complications, though rarely, and it goes on for several days - they can hardly walk if they are a large breed - after surgery. . .

This is pain inflicted for our benefit - having puppies and kittens doesn't hurt the animal . . . but we don't have the room or finances to keep all the off spring, so we put them through the surgery. . .

Quote:

So please, no rationalizations that it must not hurt that bad if the goats aren't showing discomfort. That's a load of goat manure right there.

my goats, when in pain - from a bad kidding, an injured, udder, etc. . . make is OBVIOUS they are hurting. . .
So when a goat kid is disbudded and jumps up and plays right after. . . you know the pain isn't like that of the other injuries above - I had a small house dog attack a 16 week old kid and bite her - small bites wound. . .she hobbled and screamed and shivered for a week after. . . they show pain when they are in pain - after the disbudding, I've not had a one act like they are in terrible pain even once.
Do I think it hurts? Yes, for a bit - put my husband was branded in the Marine corps and he said after the first few seconds, he did NOT feel the pain at all after - he said it was NOT that bad . . . he has a HUGE scar from the brand now . . .he said many things were more painful. . .

Quote:

put up very powerful, high tensile electric fence like the goat raisers

I have horses inside my fence and high tensile isn't recommended or safe for horses, so this is not an option here.

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your fencing, not your horns, was the problem.

I still disagree because a non horned goat cannot get injured in my fence. . .

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I raise my own meat, not only due to the chemicals, hormones, etc., but because of my spiritual beliefs in the contract that we have with our livestock.

See this is the part I wonder about - no disbudding a goat that will go on to happily live. . .but slaughter for food preference sake? I am 100% okay with humane slaughter of humanely raised livestock. . . but I personally cannot kill something to eat it when I can live happily without it. . .

Quote:

My own philosophy is unchanged; If you cannot afford the proper facilities to keep your animals safe, then you should either not have those animals,

No amount of money can assure animal safety. I think disbudded ads the chance at a safer, happier life in a better home. . .

I think this has been a very reasonable, frank debate - well done all around.
While people who already have their former opinions on the matter will do as they have done, a lot of people are still learning. . .this gives them the whole picture, for better or worse - lol

I'm actually off at 5pm to take out little fellows to the man we use for disbudded - I'll be standing outside the barn with my ears plugged, I admit.

Quote:

If you REALLY want to screw up an animal, either the particular animal, or the breed of animal, give it to the Americans. They will have it mutilated and messed up in no time at all.

I do agree this is often true - the Australian Nubians, though they are always disbudded, are a MUCH nicer looking goat than the USA version; however, We have Arabians . . .and the highest Quality Arabs come from the USA,
and the studs all over the world look to the US to lead the way in that area. . . so sometimes it isn't the case.

Oat Bucket Farm · #66 03/07/11, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

However, do listen to mygoats....the market IS prejudiced against dairy goats with horns. If you want a decent price for goats you are going to sell in the future, get them disbudded.

If you are buying a goat for your herd and you plan on keeping her for a good, long while, and what you sell her for in the future is not really an issue to you, then horns don't matter.

I have had goats with horns and goats without horns. My PREFERENCE is to never, ever, ever disbud ever again.....but, unfortunately, I sell to a show market and that is pretty much impossible.

If that ban was ever lifted, and the U.S., like EVERY COUNTRY IN EUROPE, and Mexico, etc., etc., allowed goats with horns to be shown (In some countries, goats that are disbudded are disqualified!) then I would never disbud/dehorn another goat ever, ever again.

I guess if people were used to dairy goats having horns in this country, then more people would have the proper fencing or some such. Would I prefer not to disbud? Yes. But unless the show requirements change, I will continue to disbud. There just isn't a big enough market for horned dairy goats for it to make sense to leave the horns on them. And even you You Calianna,for all that you condemn others for using the excuse of saleability (is that a word?) as a reason to disbud, have admitted that you also disbud because the market for horned dairy goats is so small and you will have too hard of a time selling to good homes if you don't disbud. So does that make you a factory farm because you are allowing profit to weigh in on your decision to disbud? You can't accuse us of being inhumane and disfiguring animals for convience and profit and at the same time also disbud. If you really think it is that cruel, then you would be unwilling to disbud for any reason, even if that meant not breeding anymore or butchering all babies that don't sell. You can't say that its a horrible cruel act and those that do it are lazy, money hungry, goat raisers with poor management and facilities, while at the same time practice the very act you condemn. You can't have your cake and eat it to.

I have had horned goats here. We have had two pymgy bucks and a pygmy wether that were horned. They were all sweet boys and only one got his head stuck once in the cattle panel. We also had a disbudded kid get his head stuck in a spool. But at this point in time, kids in 4-H and people who want to show, cannot show horned dairy goats, double standard or not. And because a lot people still think of them as just goats and a lot of new people are getting into goats (they are finally becoming a popular animal to have in the states) and they are frequently being housed on small areas of land and not on expansive farms and ranches where they have acres to spread out, they can suffer because of their horns.

6e · #67 03/07/11, 05:54 PM

Yep, Oatbucket is right. If you're breeding or raising for the show ring, then you have to follow their rules. Now does the ADGA require they be disbudded to be registered? I know like the Angoras you can't even register a goat without horns, so I was wondering if the ADGA is like that only the opposite direction?

Contrary Mann · #68 03/07/11, 05:57 PM

Never had problems with horns on any animals we have ever owned.

Contrary Mann · #69 03/07/11, 05:59 PM

Never had problems with horns on any animals we have ever owned, except for the ones someone else tried to disbud and had to deal with the scurs. That was enough for us to not bother with disbudding, and we no longer buy goats or any other animals that have been disbudded. We prefer to leave our animals in the natural state, if at all possible, excepting any males we are not going to keep for breeding, and any that need some sort of medical attention for any condition that may include altering them some how to fix the problem.

Oat Bucket Farm · #70 03/07/11, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6e

Yep, Oatbucket is right. If you're breeding or raising for the show ring, then you have to follow their rules. Now does the ADGA require they be disbudded to be registered? I know like the Angoras you can't even register a goat without horns, so I was wondering if the ADGA is like that only the opposite direction?

I don't think its an issue with registering (I could be wrong) just with showing.

6e · #71 03/07/11, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Contrary Mann

Never had problems with horns on any animals we have ever owned, except for the ones someone else tried to disbud and had to deal with the scurs. That was enough for us to not bother with disbudding, and we no longer buy goats or any other animals that have been disbudded. We prefer to leave our animals in the natural state, if at all possible, excepting any males we are not going to keep for breeding, and any that need some sort of medical attention for any condition that may include altering them some how to fix the problem.

Oh I can sympathize with the scurs thing. We've had goats that grew scurs in all kinds of screwy directions and they'd have to be trimmed almost constantly to keep them from curling back into their head or into their eyes or wherever. We've also had goats grow scurs that they'd hit or whatever and the whole horn would pop off and start bleeding all over. What a mess!

LoneStrChic23 · #72 03/08/11, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

~laughs~ Poor wmsff didn't know the can of worms getting opened with THIS question! Sorry about this.

The Great Horn Debate will likely continue until the practice is also outlawed HERE....which as we go more and more global, it is bound to happen. People want to show their super-duper-imported STRAIGHT from the origin of the breed, brand new shiney squeaky goats....and while Europe outlaws disbudding while the U.S. requires it, such intercontinental showing and breeding is impossible.

Such things are slowly happening with dogs too, since American bred German Shepherds and Rottweilers are disqualified from European, African or Asian shows. German breeders of these dogs will NOT send puppies to the U.S. AT ALL, either, because of U.S. practices.

~shrugs~ There is a saying, overseas, and I have even heard it in Hungary: If you REALLY want to screw up an animal, either the particular animal, or the breed of animal, give it to the Americans. They will have it mutilated and messed up in no time at all.

And that such a belief is true is shown right here. ~chuckles and shakes her head~

And so, the Great Horn Debate continues on....and on....and on.......

I'll not get into the horns debate, I've personally seen horrible, awful things happen to goats with horns in proper facilities, and I've been on the bad end of horns physically, so I won't have them. Period.

But I do have to say the import thing on dogs isn't true......my trainer imported two female GSD from Germany last year and is set to get another later this year.... If I had the funds, and wanted a GSD from Germany, I could easily get one, from a quality line and kennel without a single issue....

A breeder friend of mine has imported some very nice Danes from a Germany and one from Scotland in the past two years and has reservations to send a dog from her breeding program back next year....... And she cropped those pups upon arrival despite that Germany doesn't allow cropped Danes....

I'll be the first to say that the Germans developed some great breeds........but its kind of annoying to see folks act as if the Europeans are so much better in their breeding practices. I have many friends who imported from some of the finest breeders in Europe to improve their lines.....beautiful dogs. Only to find out later they imported trouble in the form of DCM, Addisons, Thyroid issues, Von Willibrands ect. ect.

Not to mention I've seen what the latest fashion in Danes in Europe has done.... grotesquely over done dogs who look like cow hocked Mastiffs, with an extremly high occurance of DCM, entropian, ectropian, cherry eye, hip dysplasia and elbow dysplasia, and most of which break down completly before 7 years old.....and these dogs win in the ring like crazy! Ugh... What American breeders did to GSD with the crazy ring fashions and new hot look, I've seen the Germans do that and worse to Great Danes.... I fostered a champion from Germany who was imported here at 2 years of age after an amazing show career across Europe, he had sire of merit awards and offspring in the ring doing as well as he did... By 4 he had hip surgery, we found out he had elbow dysplasia, was on medication for a thyroid issue and when he droped dead in my yard in front of my 2 year old son, necropsy showed cause of death to be heart failure....

No, not all European breeders are like this............and Americans aren't these evil, breed destroying people who have inferior breeding practices

In fact some of the health testing we have to detect genectic issues is amazing! I was able to have all my Chinese Cresteds tested easily with a cheek swab sent off to OFA for PRCD/PRA....and having them CERF'D, Optigen and OFA'd was simple & not really expensive...

Note- that when I speak of breeders, I'm not talking about puppy mills, back yard breeders who throw boy & girl together to have pups because they can for a profit.... On both sides I'm speaking of breeders who have their own bloodlines, actively show to have their stock evaluated and often spend a fortune on AI's and such with the goal of improving a breed and creating a generation better than the one before it.... I could list horror stories on what puppy mills on both side of the pond do....ick..

Anywho, off my doggy babble.......the horns vs. hornless may continue

CaliannG · #73 03/09/11, 10:40 AM

On German Shepherds: GERMAN breeders, not necessarily French, Italian or Polish, but GERMAN breeders will NOT export *German Shepherds* OR *Rottweilers* to U.S. breeders. This has to do with the GERMAN clubs for these breeds.

An example: If you have a USDA #, you will be kicked out of the Mile High Newfoundland Club because no one who isn't a puppy mill NEEDS a USDA #. If you are a puppy mill, you do not care about the breed.

In GERMANY, it is felt that importing one's lines to U.S. breeders will only harm the lines. Well, look what German breeders of those breeds are breeding for and compare it to U.S. dogs....see the difference? Therefore, if you export to U.S. breeders, you care about the money, not the breed and you don't get to be in the club anymore.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Creamers

See this is the part I wonder about - no disbudding a goat that will go on to happily live. . .but slaughter for food preference sake? I am 100% okay with humane slaughter of humanely raised livestock. . . but I personally cannot kill something to eat it when I can live happily without it. . .

~laughs~ So you obviously have more of a concern for animal welfare because you don't eat animals? And eating animals is a food PREFERENCE? Excuse me, but I have had biology class, and I happen to know that humans are OMNIVORES. I also happen to know that if our ancestors did NOT start eating meat, and therefore increase brain function through higher protein intake, we wouldn't even be having this conversation...because we wouldn't be "man who thinks" we'd be "just another primate".

And another question: Just WHO has more of an interest in the health and well being of, say, a population of deer? The antelope, who at times has to compete with the deer for resources? Or the wolf, whose survival and prosperity is DEPENDENT upon the health and well being of the deer population.

You don't have a VESTED interest in meat animals, because you do not DEPEND upon them for sustanence. Therefore, take your "I'm-a-vegetarian-and-therefore-I-have-to-care-more-about-critters-than-you-do" attitude and march it right out of this debate.

Because you are no longer debating the topic, you are instead, attempting an attack of character. We can discuss the morality and ethics of vegetarianism verses non-vegetarianism another time. We can do it at my house. I'll make sure to scent the entire place with Perfume de Pepperoni Pizza.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oat Bucket Farm

And even you You Calianna,for all that you condemn others for using the excuse of saleability (is that a word?) as a reason to disbud, have admitted that you also disbud because the market for horned dairy goats is so small and you will have too hard of a time selling to good homes if you don't disbud.

I do not disbud for marketability. The only goat I will ever disbud is one that has a destination of a show ring. That is simply because I wish to breed the best animals, and without competition and comparison, one cannot know what the best animals are. When I say "show" I do NOT mean 4-H or FFA....I mean ADGA, MDGA, TMGR, etc." My show market is NOT kids learning how to be farmers....it is breeders breeding the best they can.

I said it is *absolutely true* that it is hard to find good homes for horned goats. I never ONCE said that I disbud for this reason. In fact, NO goat that is *not* going to be shown by either myself or the new owner is EVER disfigured by me or my order...EVER.

That means grades, wethers, etc., do not get disbudded here. ~smiles~

Does that mean I am a hypocrit? Partially, oh yes! If the ADGA, MDGA, or TMGR *ever* changed its rules and allowed horned goats, would I ever disbud again? Not a chance. Am I also a hypocrit when I tell my mother-in-law that I just ADORE the bright pink, flowered, needle-point kleenex box holder she made for me for my birthday? Yep. Is there a chance of living in this world and actually interacting sucessfully with other people WITHOUT occasionally being a hypocrit? Nope...which is why I am not going to worry too much about it.

I do, however, let people know that it IS difficult to find good homes for horned goats. Just because I believe the practice is as barbaric as mutilating puppies doesn't mean that I am not going to be forthright with people and tell them "You cannot show an Australian Shepherd that does not have a docked tail, and you cannot show a Boxer that does not have upright ears. In the same way, you cannot show a dairy goat that has not been disbudded. Just like you would have a hard time finding GOOD homes for dogs that have not been mutilated to show standards, you are also going to have a hard time finding good homes for goats that have not been mutilated to show standards. Harsh, but that is the way things currently are. Write your congressperson and the Board of Directors for your registry about it if you don't like it. I know they are tired of hearing from me."

So, is it bad of me to tell people the consequences of refusing to disbud, even though I am personally against the practice? Because, personally, I feel that I am taking the high road, and (puts on her best Church Lady voice) am therefore SUPERIOR to you disbudding people, who are ruled by SATAN, and NEVER tell newbies the risks and possible CONSEQUENCES of going to YOUR side....which is FULL of the DARK DEMONS of SATAN.... hhmmmmm?

[For those who are humor impaired, the previous lines are sarcasm/satire/parody of a character on a Saturday Night Live skit.... they do not reflect the views of this site, this forum, or even this writer. /end disclaimer We now return you to your regularly scheduled post.]

Specifically to Crystal: Neither you, your trainer friend or your breeder friend has ever imported, from Germany, FCI registered dogs from Germany. The *parents* might have been FCI registered, but the pups/dogs were not.

I would also like to see the papers and the awards listing on your Dane from Germany that you fostered, because it is against FCI regulations to breed animals that have a history in their family of displasia, or that has a positive OFA or other test indicating displasisa....and animals that are bred without FCI approval cannot be registered, and therefore cannot be shown in Europe.

This is why European Newfoundlands do not have the issues that American bred Newfoundlands have... Hip and elbow displasia is almost unheard of in the breed in Europe, and the life expectancy is in the 12-16 year range, rather than the 10-12 year range that it has FINALLY gotten up to here. (8-10 years used to be the norm)

AKC won't kick you out if you do not test. FCI *will*. Here, good breeders do OFA's and get their stock certified. In Europe, if you don't do OFA testing, you don't get to be an FCI member.

~smiles~ Where do you think those genetic and health tests originated? I promise you that it was NOT the U.S.

Okay, back to the horned verses disbudded debate! Sorry it has taken me a couple of days, but I haven't been online in a couple of days.

Oat Bucket Farm · #74 03/09/11, 10:54 AM

You specifically said "If you want a decent price for goats you are going to sell in the future, get them disbudded."

So you are saying that we are barbaric for doing doing it and for allowing money making to be part of the desicion while at the same time telling people to disbud if they want to make any money. And yes, if you were true to your convictions, you wonuld not disbud. Instead you would be protesting the ADGA and in fact would refuse to do business with them until they changed their rules. You would be starting a group or club against the practice and other such things. You would not be tellling everyone that its barabric but for the sake of YOUR sales for YOUR show goats and obviously for YOUR convience (because we know that not dealing with the ADGA and not showing would really inconvience you and hamper your wants as a breeder) you will continue to disbud. You are talking out both sides of your mouth. Its either cruel and barbaric and you are against it. Or its unpleasant but you will do it to sell goats and to be able to participate in shows.

Just out of curiousity, do dairy goats being Linear Appraised have to be hornless?

susanne · #75 03/09/11, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

On German Shepherds: GERMAN breeders, not necessarily French, Italian or Polish, but GERMAN breeders will NOT export *German Shepherds* OR *Rottweilers* to U.S. breeders. This has to do with the GERMAN clubs for these breeds.

An example: If you have a USDA #, you will be kicked out of the Mile High Newfoundland Club because no one who isn't a puppy mill NEEDS a USDA #. If you are a puppy mill, you do not care about the breed.

In GERMANY, it is felt that importing one's lines to U.S. breeders will only harm the lines. Well, look what German breeders of those breeds are breeding for and compare it to U.S. dogs....see the difference? Therefore, if you export to U.S. breeders, you care about the money, not the breed and you don't get to be in the club anymore.

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where did you get this information? it is absolutely not true.

CaliannG · #76 03/09/11, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by susanne

where did you get this information? it is absolutely not true.

A gentleman by the name of Christian Kerner, an acquaintance of mine who is a graphics designer, breeder of Rottweilers, and avid small sports car enthusiast. We know one another because we both, long ago, belonged to the same race club for small sports cars (International race club) and he and his lovely wife stayed with me for a sporting event being held here. He was born, and currently lives and works in, West Berlin.

Akasha Eidle is a fourth cousin of mine who currently lives and works in Austria, although she was born in Germany. (Over here, our family changed the spelling of our name to "Idol", for reasons only known in 1718 to them.) Her Domestic Partner breeds German Shepherds.

Several others, whose full names I do not currently remember, who are originally from, or currently live and work in, Germany and Austria. Heck, my half sister, who was born, bred and brought up on the Isle of Wight, U.K., has mentioned this to me.

Of course, they could all be wrong. ~shrugs~

OBF, you have taken the discussion to character attack rather than debating the topic. I have been honest and completely admitted the times and reasons when I, although I dislike the practice and find it abhorrent, disbud. I did not have to do so. If I wished to be dishonest, or simply to win an argument, I could have never said anything about my own practices and left everyone believing that I, myself, would not disbud. I did not do so.

It is not in my interest just to win arguments or debates. It is in my interest, if I should find misinformation, to correct it. If others should find misinformation in what I write, I should hope that they would correct me, also. Disbudding as "necessary" for the health and welfare of the goat is GROSS misinformation. Disbudding is done for the sake of fashion, and it is done in this country....and is ONLY prevalent in THIS country.

Your character attack, that if I should find it so loathsome, I would do this, that or the other, is extreme and does not hold water. By your logic, if someone does not agree with the importation of foreign oil, or finds it ethically irresponsible, they would immediately stop driving their car, never buy gas that might have foreign oil in it, and even if it should mean loosing their jobs and their families, make lobbying against the importation of foreign oil their life's passion.

Or, by the same logic, if someone is pro-life, if they REALLY were against abortion, they would go on a rampage, killing all the abortion-providers they could find and blowing up abortion clinics, to end such atrocities.....

....oh, wait, that's right...we already have extremist nut-cases that do this.

I am not an extremist. Your logic does not hold water nor does it contribute to the argument. Withdraw.

cjb · #77 03/09/11, 03:35 PM

Caliann, I'm just curious as to whether (so to speak) you ever castrate any of your male animals? Spay your females? This can certainly be compared to disbudding in that you are removing a "God-given" part. However, in the long run, it is usually better for the animal and/or the owner.

I fear that we sometimes put the welfare of animals far above our own. The truth is, as much as we love and respect them, they're animals. We raise them for milk and meat and enjoyment. A few seconds of pain on the head of a kid in exchange for his/her lifetime of being safer, easier to handle, more marketable? I'm way ok with that.

Also, just my opinion but basing these decisions on financial considerations isn't "greed" but just sound business practice.

I don't mean to pick sides - just expressing my personal opinion.

Also, appreciate the debate but let's keep it civil and friendly.. MMMkay?

<----- directed to all

cjb · #78 03/09/11, 03:41 PM

BTW: I do agree with the fact that Americans tend to ruin certain dog breeds for vanity, however, I know that breeders around here do often important GSD's from Europe so some European breeders are willing to export to us. Anymore, I would NOT purchase an American, roach-backed GSD.

Off topic, I know, but hey! It's Wednesday.

severtki · #79 03/09/11, 04:18 PM

We had a few with horns and have managed to sell them off so we're horn free here. NO plans to go back to horns -- we had one episode where a horned doe tussled with another that was wearing a collar, and they got caught and the collared doe was being strangled. Luckily I was in the barn working when it happened, or she would have died. It still took me a few frantic minutes to untangle and free them, as the collar was twisted around the horns.

Lessons learned about: 1) horns, 2) collars, and 3) horns + collars...

Kirk

Oat Bucket Farm · #80 03/09/11, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

So, greed is a good enough reason to cause pain to, or mutilate, others? If I own a factory, and I don't want to go through the expense of buying new equipment, it is ethical for me to insist that workers, say, cut off their pinky fingers to make using the old equipment safer and more effective?

Yes, that is an extreme example, but tell me where the line is on that, hmmm? When is it ethical to hurt and mutilate other creatures for my own pocketbook (i.e., GREED), and when isn't it? Does that mean that those factory farms are perfectly ethical in how they treat those cramped, feedlot animals, since it is saving them money? How about de-beaking chickens and sticking them in little cages their whole lives?

Isn't one of the reasons for raising our own food is so that we can get AWAY from the factory farm practices that are unhealthful and unethical? I have to think so, because it certainly isn't CHEAPER! Therefore, if we copy the factory farm philosophy, how are we any better, ethically?

I found it interesting that you mentioned this because I was talking with my DH about the disbudding/dehorning thing earlier, and he said, "The ONLY reason to disbud goats is because of greed. I do not approve of greed on either a moral or ethical basis, as it has caused, and is continually causing, so much suffering in the world."

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I am hearing more excuses and rationalizations....but so far, although I consider it an erroneous reason, only Creamers has come up with an excuse or rationalization that is, at least, moral and ethical.

I have not attacked your character in any way. I actually like you as a forum friend very much. But as you pointed out, the kid gloves come off in a debate.

I am merely pointing out the double standard you have where you feel free to condemn everyone else for thinking disbudding is a good idea. Where you say that everything we say is just a rationalization. But at the same time, you are practicing disbudding and using the rationalization that you have to disbud in order to sell for show. You do have a choice. And yea, people who feel strongly about animal slaughter are vegetarians. People who feel using animal fur is wrong, don't wear fur coats. If you truly feel that it is that cruel, then you would make the choice not to do it.

You have accused those of us that do it of greed. You have said that if a goat could get stuck on our place or if we need to sell kids to make our goats pay for themselves then our facilities and management suck. And said that if we are offended, we need to look at ourselves. I merely replying to the things you yourself have said and asking that you take the same look at yourself.

Whether someone agrees with disbudding or not is fine. But don't take the high road. If you disbud so that you can sell your goats to the show market then you disbud for reasons other than the health of the goat. In fact you are not worried at all about the future fences they could get stuck in, you are worried about whether or not they can go in the ring.And that is greed. And according to you, it is cruel, inhumane and unethical.

You are trying to argue how awful it is while at the same time trying to absolve yourself of any responsibility for the fact that you do it. If the shows don't allow horns, then either don't show and don't sell to the show market and don't be a member of any organization that supports disbudding. Just like vegans aren't members of any beef organizations.Just like someone against the wearing of furs won't by stock in a fur company. If you are against something for moral, ethical, and humane reasons, then you don't take part. It's a choice.