Would you get a horned dairy goat

OH so true!

__________________
Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

I like my goats horns.

The ones without horns definitely have horn envy.
One still, at five years old, twists her neck as if to scratch her back,
gets frustrated, and gives up.

She was disbudded at just a few days old.

I've had too many "visitor" dogs to leave my goats defenseless,
and that 4-Hers will not buy them is, sadly,
in my area a plus.

It is a personal decision and relates to personal beliefs and circumstances
and management practices.

I love horns when I need to medicate a goat or put one somewhere without a collar.

Hahaha- A friend of mine told me once "They don't like that" about being pulled by the horns.

LOL- "I didn't imagine they do."

Bless!

I'd have a hard time Telling that to the two little Pygmy does I used to have. They both stuck their heads through the fence and were ripped apart by my friendly dogs a week apart after being find in the fence for a year because the dogs tried to heel them to death - out of all the goats I've had, only the two with horns has that happened to -
Was that humane? When my husband had to shoot the one to end her horrific suffering. . .that was the only humane thing that happened.
I'll never have a goat with horns again.
Now, you can say that was a fluke, but I've heard a 100 such stories since then - I was the person who made the above arguments for the sake of humane thought prior to that event - taught me a lesson - some goats have HUGE horns and couldn't get their head through any fence - many dairy and mini does DO NOT and kids do not - theirs are small and easily stuck - if yours haven't been stuck or caught by a dog, count your blessings because it is likely just a matter of time and I hope the story doesn't end like mine did.

Also, yes. . .I found when those does tried to head butt my kids playing, it could actually harm them verses a disbudded doe playing and it being "just cute."

Also, there isn't a market for dairy goats with horns. The horns limit the quality of the home the goats will get if you sell them - they will usually end up at auction time and time again.

Is it more humane to disbud for 16 seconds and be sure they will not get their heads stuck and ripped into bits by a dog that passed by or to give them a somewhat better chance at a good home? Of course it is.

I'm all about humane practices - I'm a vegetarian and have been for 15 years, but I disbud and always will.

All it takes is one fluke - if you want to call it that - for someone to change their tune.

The man who disbuds for us has more than 30 years behind him - never a death or brain damage or even a bad reaction after 1,000 of goats.

I mean, people can do whatever they want - I am just giving my experience and am saying, I was a "Horns are fine" person "ONCE upon a Time", too

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~shrugs~ I do not have fencing that a goat could get horns stuck in.

I have a trained LGD that keeps neighborhood dogs that might attack my goats, stuck in a fence or not, away from my livestock.

If I came home to find my goats torn to bits by dogs, stuck in a fence, I would NOT blame the horns. I would blame the dogs that tore them apart. I might even blame the fence. I might question my own management practices....and ask myself why I didn't get goat-safe fence long before this (I have seen goats WITHOUT horns stuck in fence...that is not JUST a horned-goat issue), or ask myself why I didn't address the issue of possible predators on my property before this.

What I would not do is say to myself, "Oh, even though those stray dogs were heeling my goats to death, the goats would not have eventually gotten exhausted and been torn to bits by the aggressive dogs anyway! They would NOT have run into the fence and gotten momentarily tangled, and been torn to bits! No! They would have continued running and running and running and running until I got home and chased those darned dogs off if ONLY they hadn't had horns!"

THAT is an unrealistic assessment of the situation and the management practices.

~grinz~ Or perhaps I should say, "Horns do not kill goats. Dogs/people/poor confinement/unrealistic management/etc. kills goats."

Humans like to feel that they have control over situations. So perhaps I should change that statement to read: Dis-budding or De-horning of goats is done for the sake of FASHION or CONVENIENCE or so the owner can feel they have addressed a problem (like stray dogs) and have instituted measures to insure the problem will not repeat itself, when in actuality, they are only making themselves feel better.

After all, a disbudding iron is cheaper than new fence that will keep goats in without risking them being entangled, and keep dogs OUT. It would SUCK to go without something, like high speed internet access, or cable, or new goats, in order to put in new, expensive fencing to keep the livestock safe when we could just spend $100 or less on an iron and torture that livestock instead.

Yeah....more excuses, more rationalizations. As Heinlein once said, "Man is not a rational animal; man is a rationalizing animal." I stand by my previous statement. FASHION or CONVENIENCE. It's awfully convenient to not have to shell out the bucks for decent fencing, after all.

Yes, I do believe I am being harsh....and I don't like to be harsh especially towards people I like and, for the most part, admire. But if you are going to try and discuss/debate a subject with me, kid gloves and social niceties are OFF. This is my very blunt and honest opinion.

And, besides, I have seen the Boer goats in the small herds (folks on 5 acres or less) with their heads momentarily stuck in the fence by their horns....they manage to work themselves out of it. Lots of folks use those 6" square hog panels around here and yes, even the Boers and Spanish goats will sometimes get their heads through and take some time figuring out how to get out. We have stray dogs and coyotes out here, and the goats haven't been ripped to shreds.....

Oh yeah, I forgot, those people have GOOD FENCING...even if the goat can get its head through, the dogs aren't getting in....and those people have TRAINED LGDs to protect their livestock.

Rule of thumb: If it is that much of a problem, the commercial herds would be having problems too.

But don't let me even ATTEMPT to talk people out of burning the heck out of the heads of little babies WITHOUT any painkillers. Maybe those people should have to burn the heck out of their OWN children for good measure? Someone could say "it's for their own good".

No, I didn't circumcise my sons either, but that is done with pain killers nowadays also.

Jeez, people, THINK.

__________________
Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

I should have clarified the story - the dogs were not strays, they were not INside the fence - the dogs were outside the fence and tore the goat's heads off because the goats were stuck - this was in Small opening, brand new fence - that has now after that - - -been up 2 years - another goat has never, without horns, gotten its head stuck on the property. . .before or since. . .
Small breeds, like these, can stick their heads through almost anything, but without horns, they can pull their heads right back out. . . Common sense.

My Pyr was INSIDE the fence and could DO NOTHING to prevent what happened - this happened TWICE in a week or so. . . the fence was great fence. . .nothing wrong there - the horns are WHAT got the does stuck and are the ONLY reason they could not get free. This is a situation where I did everything right except LET those does keep their horns - used quality fence, had a LGD - well trained, fenced dogs out. . .and saw time and again - the small goats could get their heads easily through and back - the horned goats could not.

Not true - they may very well have issues, but losing a goat now and again due to horns being stuck isn't going to be enough to motivate a large herd to take the huge undertaking of disbudding hundreds or thousands of kids - no way.

The only deaths I'm aware of with disbudding are from two show breeds who use painkillers on young kids - they often OD and do not wake back up. . .while I'd love to use a painkiller . . .so far, I've found it too risky. . .

I've based my choices on facts. These are things I've learned through living by - no "rationalization" will change with I've learned in such a way, but others can review both sides - extreme as they are - and then decide for themselves.

People would could consider anyone that has as many years going equine rescue, 15 years of vegetarianism and humane farming activism as I have under my belt would make a decision to advocate disbudding (also of my dairy cattle, as well) lightly. I now have not a SECOND of regret about going it.

I'm cool with this - I am the same way.

I think horns can be blamed in many instances - beyond all the above, and of course, in the situations I had. . .basically, just like seatbelts and car accidents - not wear a seatbelt can GET you killed. . .it did not actually do the killing - having horns can get a goat killed - it did not commit the crime.

Like I said - new farm, new fence - lord know, it all cost me a fortune. . .made no difference. . . after this happened to my does, I heard many stories on so many forums about the same thing happening to others goats. . .
Driving my kids 1 hour each way for disbudding is not convenient for me.

Also, like I said, the fact remains that quality homes usually want disbudded goats - a horned goat, unless you're keeping it for its whole life - has a slime chance (again, I have years of rescue, though I cannot, for biosecurity reasons, do goats, under my belt) of getting a quality home for life. . .it is just like having a foal born, never halter training it and at 5 years old . . . hoping to find it a good home. . .almost impossible. . . 16 seconds of OUCH is worth the best chance at a good home any day of the week.

Another good reason is livestock cost a fortune to maintain. . .who can afford to put real Quality care into their goats and sell the kids for $50-$100 each verses $250-$350 (that is the difference here - I have no idea about elsewhere) each? Now, if I just could not manage to disbud, I personally would not breed and would keep some as pets. . .
My goats get vet care any moment they need it, shelter, quality minerals, copper, bo-se, hoof trims and dedication to their placement into only the best homes possible. . .
in order to afford that, on the scale I have, disbudding would need needed, yes, to help recoup my costs when I sell kids. . .that is a perfectly good reason to disbud, as well.

Btw. . . I'm a stanch anti-circumcision parent - I have worked in hospitals and goat kids do NOT scream anywhere near as long or hard as little boys do when that is done.

I do have a question. ..do you eat meat? If so, do you eat anything factory farmed?

Anyone who feels as strongly as you or I do about each side are never likely to change (of course, I actually did flip over to the NO HORNS side, but it took a real tragedy to totally convince me I was in err here). . .but it gives people two CLEAR arguments for and against. . .that way people can make the best decision for them and their herd.

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Or everyone can put up very powerful, high tensile electric fence like the goat raisers do around here and cure not only the horn problem, but the dog problem too.

As I said in an earlier post, we raised Angoras...and have raised Boers....all of which have to have their horns. When they were in large pastures we never had a goat get its head caught in the fence. The only time when we had that trouble is when they were up in the lot for the winter and they were reaching through to grab something yummy on the outside of the fence and I and my kids have struggled many a time to get their heads out of a fence as goats aren't all that cooperative. We've never lost a goat to a dog, but then that could be because when we see a dog....regardless of whose it is....harassing the goats they get shot real quick.

But on my dairy goats I prefer no horns. They spend more time in a small lot when being penned up before they come into milk, getting their grain while waiting for everyone to go through and are generally just handled more than the Angoras or the Boers and I find horns a hassle and really don't like getting caught in the back of the thigh with them. So, in that regard, and because they grow such ugly horns, I disbud my dairy goats. If I had to handle the Boers as much as the dairy goats, I would probably disbud them too, but I don't. Besides, they do make excellent handles since most Boers don't run around with collars on like the dairy goats and horns on Angoras make excellent handles during shearing.

I truly find it's a personal call and not a subject that anyone can dictate for someone else.

__________________
"Be still sad heart, and cease repining. Behind the clouds, the sun is shining. Thy fate is the common fate of all. Into each life, a little rain must fall." -Longfellow

And BTW, Calliann and Creamers...you both make excellent arguments for both sides.

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"Be still sad heart, and cease repining. Behind the clouds, the sun is shining. Thy fate is the common fate of all. Into each life, a little rain must fall." -Longfellow

~laughs~ Creamers and I are used to this argument. Every so often this question comes up and then we have the same disagreement. I think we have reached the point where we are like the old, married couple, having the same argument over and over again and never once budging from our convictions. You'll probably see us in the nursing home, miles away from ANY goats, having this same debate in 20, 30, 40, 50 years or so.

I beg to differ. If the fence allowed the does to get their heads in AT ALL (which is why serious commercial people use 3" stock fence that goats can't shove their heads through) then it was not great fence and your fencing, not your horns, was the problem.

Yes, and not if I can possibly avoid it. I actually don't really LIKE meat except for beef and shrimp... and the only way I'll eat either of those factory farmed is if a family member takes me out to dinner and I am feeling both family and social pressure. This explains why I don't go out hardly at all.

I raise my own meat, not only due to the chemicals, hormones, etc., but because of my spiritual beliefs in the contract that we have with our livestock. ~shrugs~

~sighs~ And this is absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt, completely true. And for those watching this thread, take note, because this is the part that I absolutely *despise*... the fact that BECAUSE of fashion, BECAUSE of the showing rules that fuel the fashion, and because of PEOPLE are ill-informed and ill-trained in handling goats..... BECAUSE they are often fed the same line of crap.

It is JUST like in dogs and other "fashionable" animals. An idea gets passed around, rationalizations occur, and soon, you cannot find a quality home for a boxer that has not has his ears and tail mutilated, or a Dane who hasn't had a "bell cut".

In dogs, finally people are screaming about it enough that shows are relaxing the rules on bobs and cuts, making them mandatory. I sure wish more people would scream about mutilating goats.

__________________
Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

If I can disbud my goats and use cheaper fencing, then that's also a win-situation. I'd disbud anways because the demand is for disbudded goats (not my ONLY reason), but if I can use cattle panels or 'field fence' safely instead of super expensive goat fence or horse fence with tiny holes, then why not? A few seconds of pain for easier managment is a good deal. I think boys react worse to castration. And they all HATE tattoos. Disbudding is a safe cauterized wound that they usually forget about in minutes.

And it's not just fencing - I've heard of goat's horns tangling in feeders and choking to death too.

Don't get me wrong, I love the LOOK of horns, but I definetely don't like working with them.

__________________


Dona Barski

"Breed the best, eat the rest"

Caprice Acres

French and American Alpines. CAE, Johnes neg herd. Abscess free. LA, DHIR.

Again, all I can say is I've had more problems with disbudded goats getting stuck than with horned goats. My horned goats seem to learn that they need more headspace and they won't stick their heads through small holes. The disbudded ones get their heads into places that I didn't know were possible.

Goats are goats. Some of them are just going to get stuck no matter what. To me, horned ones are easier to prevent because they can't get their heads stuck in such small spaces. I usually have the little ones get stuck once and that's it. I even have a special pen, just for that. They learn not to stick their heads through things. The few that aren't smart enough to figure it out are not smart enough to keep.

On the other hand, it's quite a sight to go out to feed in the morning and find the neighbors dog that's been harassing the animals laying disemboweled by the shelter.

They're also more entertaining. Discarded Christmas trees and pumpkins just don't tend to get stuck on the heads of disbudded goats!

If you build and fence with horns in mind, they're just not an issue. It's not different than fencing with the idea that goats like to stand on fence, or any other species quirks. I'd not build a pasture for a cow and expect it to hold chickens.

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Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Hamlet


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I won't have horns on my place, period. But even if I wanted horns I would have to look at the future of the babies. Even if I had the real expensive fence with the 3" spacing instead of the cattle panels I have now, I cannot guarentee that the homes the babies went to, or the homes they may be sold to after that, will have the proper fencing. Much better that they have a few seconds of ouch (which isn't much different than branding cows, and castrating,and I am sure that tattooing for registrations isn't that comfortable either) than have to worry that the person I sold them to isn't going to have some sort of family issue and need to sell out and the goat goes to a newbie who doesn't understand well enough about horns and fences and the goat ends up tangeled in the fence right after they leave for work where it hangs for hours until it dies. Since you cannot control where every goat you breed will go, when you determine what is humane you have to think about what happens to them after they leave your place with its horn safe fencing. If it hurt that bad they wouldn't be sucking down bottles and bouncing around with their play mates within minutes of it. Goats can hit hard enough with their heads to break two by fours, and they smack their heads together with enough force to probably knock a human out and yet they walk away like it was no big deal. I don't think you can equate burning the horn buds on a goat's head with burning a child, I think that is a pretty extreme comparison.

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Again, I beg to differ. Goats are prey animals. I have seen goats bouncing around, sucking down bottles and other food, after they have had a dislocated shoulder put back into place. That does not mean that the dislocation, and subsequent replacing of it, didn't hurt like Hades. It means that goats, like other prey animals, are conditioned by instinct not to SHOW discomfort....because *showing* discomfort and pain gets you targeted by predators.

We have instances of the same thing in our own species....the guy with the multiple fractured leg saying, in a perfectly normal tone of voice, "Yeah, Doc, I think I might have bumped that leg a bit, so I brought myself here for you to take a look at it." Does the fact that guy isn't SHOWING pain mean that a broken leg doesn't HURT him like the dickens?

So please, no rationalizations that it must not hurt that bad if the goats aren't showing discomfort. That's a load of goat manure right there.

So, greed is a good enough reason to cause pain to, or mutilate, others? If I own a factory, and I don't want to go through the expense of buying new equipment, it is ethical for me to insist that workers, say, cut off their pinky fingers to make using the old equipment safer and more effective?

Yes, that is an extreme example, but tell me where the line is on that, hmmm? When is it ethical to hurt and mutilate other creatures for my own pocketbook (i.e., GREED), and when isn't it? Does that mean that those factory farms are perfectly ethical in how they treat those cramped, feedlot animals, since it is saving them money? How about de-beaking chickens and sticking them in little cages their whole lives?

Isn't one of the reasons for raising our own food is so that we can get AWAY from the factory farm practices that are unhealthful and unethical? I have to think so, because it certainly isn't CHEAPER! Therefore, if we copy the factory farm philosophy, how are we any better, ethically?

I found it interesting that you mentioned this because I was talking with my DH about the disbudding/dehorning thing earlier, and he said, "The ONLY reason to disbud goats is because of greed. I do not approve of greed on either a moral or ethical basis, as it has caused, and is continually causing, so much suffering in the world."

********************************

I am hearing more excuses and rationalizations....but so far, although I consider it an erroneous reason, only Creamers has come up with an excuse or rationalization that is, at least, moral and ethical.

__________________
Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

I'm not reading the debate any more. It's not going to change my mind.

No horns here. We disbud.

We also have electric net fencing, so getting horns stuck wouldn't be an issue anyway.

__________________
Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

wildly debate as always with a topic like this.
i do have two goats with horns as somehow we missed the proper disbudding time and then it always was layed off for one or another reason. those two are very friendly, with humans and with herd mates. humans just have to be careful at feeding time and respect the horns. we have cattle panels and i had more goats got stuck without horns then these too. they are very smart and know how to turn the head to get out again. unlike the dehorned goats they seem to know were they can put their head through and where not.
we don't show, not planning to sell these either as they are just too nice.
so depending what you want, and how aware you are about the danger horns can have, go with the horns.
i would put much more attention to the health to those goats you want to buy then to the horns.
of course this is just my opinion.
yup, i'm from germany and in germany it is forbidden to dehorn or disbud

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Susanne Stuetzler
Ain-ash-shams
Nubian Dairy Goats

please visit us at
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I'm right there with ya Alice.. I too will not be swayed.. (I get lots of folks from this forum contacting me about purchasing kids.. I will admit that I do use this sort of thread to help me learn more about HT memebers/their farms/the way they care for their goats ..It also helps me decide who I do & who I don't want to sell kids to ) .. In the past I've on occasion let myself get talked into not disbudding the occasional kid.. Oat Bucket Farm's post actually helped me come to a decision.. NO kids will leave this farm again.. without first being disbudded. If this costs me a sell every few years.. so be it.

susie mo. ozarks

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I have to ask....so it is illegal over seas to disbud or dehorn? Has it always been that way or did they disbud at one time? (I'm just curious)

This debate interests me a great deal as it's primarily only the dairy goat people that disbud. Neither the Angora nor the Boer goat people do this.

While we're off on this, this is our Angora buck "Awesome" who lived to the ripe age of 14 years old and had a 4' horn spread. Never hurt a soul and was the sweetest goat. Yes, by the time he was old his horns were too big to get through a fence, although, I saw him squeeze out a hole in the fence by tipping his head sideways, put one horn through, then his head, then his other horn, then his body. He was no dummy. LOL



We did have trouble with, when my kids would leave the feed cans out in the paddock, the kids with shorter horns would stick their head into the can and it'd get stuck there.

Anyway, just had to ask that question and share a pic. I see this debate from both sides because we've raised both kinds of goats. I don't believe that the only safe goats are disbudded goats because then the Angoras and the Boers would be dieing off left and right, so I don't necessarily agree with that argument, but I do agree that it seems to make their marketability go down.

__________________
"Be still sad heart, and cease repining. Behind the clouds, the sun is shining. Thy fate is the common fate of all. Into each life, a little rain must fall." -Longfellow

To each their own. I personally believe it's more humane TO disbud. I rather resent being compared to a factory farm, just because I made what I think is a very ethical decision but it happens to differ from your own opinion. As for 'greed' - there is nothing unethical about wanting goats that pay their way or are profitable. If disbudding was at the expense of health or life (which I do not believe it is) then yes, it would be wrong.

As I said, I have horns and no horns. I strongly prefer no horns for many reasons. I highly doubt I'll ever buy a dairy doe with horns. Theoretically I might buy a horned boer doe, but likely she would be here long enough to get good kids out of her than would likely be sold.

I don't like the idea of ever having a horned buck again of any breed. They are too unpredictable, IMO - even the sweet ones.

__________________


Dona Barski

"Breed the best, eat the rest"

Caprice Acres

French and American Alpines. CAE, Johnes neg herd. Abscess free. LA, DHIR.

Oh, just for grins and giggles, even though it wasn't a goat, it was a sheep, when Abraham was told to take his son up to sacrifice him and God provided for the ram to sacrifice, Abraham found the ram with his horns caught in a bush. I guess in that instance, a polled or disbudded sheep might have been a blessing. LOL

OK, I'm out of this debate. It's been interesting.

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"Be still sad heart, and cease repining. Behind the clouds, the sun is shining. Thy fate is the common fate of all. Into each life, a little rain must fall." -Longfellow

and then abraham would not have gotten the ram if polled because it would not have gotten stuck.
does this mean we see the horns as a blessing?

great humor

as long as i can remember dairy goats had horns or naturally polled in germany. no idea when they started doing this.

__________________
Susanne Stuetzler
Ain-ash-shams
Nubian Dairy Goats

please visit us at
http://www.ain-ash-shams.net

Yes,it is illegal to disbud or dehorn over seas. Some countries are a little more strict than others, but the European Union considers it unnecessary cruelty.

Their commercial milk stanchions are built a bit differently than ours, to accommodate does with horns. This is why their dairies do not have the problems with horns that ours do. Also, they have MORE goat dairies over there than we do (and more sheep dairies also! Especially in France!), so they have more numbers to get basic statistical data from.

Their fencing, however, is generally cattle-type fencing, not the special goat fencing. They don't seem to have a problem with a bunch of goats dying with their heads stuck in fences. ~shrugs~ Maybe their goats are smarter than ours.

Disbudding hasn't ALWAYS been illegal in Europe, but it has also never been a common practice. The disbudding/dehorning of goats originated in the U.S., and has stayed pretty much confined to the U.S. Some areas in Europe experimented with it, but it never caught on as a common practice. Then, I think it was a couple of decades ago? It was right after they solidified the European Union, that they outlawed the practice as inhumane altogether.

mygoats: There is nothing wrong with animals paying their own way. However, when it gets above paying their own way and into "profit margins", and people start making decisions that effect the animals based on those "profit margins", then those people are no better, ethically, than factory farms who are basing THEIR decisions on the same philosophy.

My own goats do not pay their way with the sale of kids, or whether or not I use good fencing. They pay their way through the production of milk and, so far, each and every one of them has produced MORE than her feed intake in milk....which surplus can be considered to go towards the initial investment on GOOD facilities, which includes proper fencing for goats.

My own philosophy is unchanged; If you cannot afford the proper facilities to keep your animals safe, then you should either not have those animals, or have FEWER animals until it reaches the point where you CAN afford to keep them in safe quarter without having to mutilate them "for their own good".

Plain and simple: If you are relying on the sale of kids to make your dairy goats pay their own way, then your management practices suck. If your goats have to be physically changed to be safe and productive in your facilities, then your facilities suck. If you are relying on animal mutilation to keep your animals safe and productive, rather than expending capital or profit to upgrade your facilities, then you are, JUST LIKE THE FACTORY FARMS, basing your decisions on greed.

And if you are offended by that, then you need to take a good look at yourself and your own ethics and practices.

__________________
Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck