Would you get a horned dairy goat

Creamers · #21 03/05/11, 01:13 AM

Quote:

No Been there and done that and learned my lesson.

Same here - learned it in a SAD way

billooo2 · #22 03/05/11, 04:54 AM

Nope!!!

Rockytopsis · #23 03/05/11, 06:36 AM

I have both horned and disbudded goats. I have both dairy and non dairy. I am milking a Alpine/Boer doe now with a nice rack.
It is a matter of opinion really. I like the horns. I won't keep a mean goat here of any kind. If their head gets stuck we unsick em. If they keep doing it we ducktape a rod accross their horns till they learn not to.
Nancy

**mygoat** · #24 03/05/11, 07:46 AM

I have two with horns. One is my first doe and the other is her daughter and the first goat ever born here. I won't sell/butcher them because I'm too attached, but everything gets disbudded here. I don't buy horned dairies.

First, you're cutting out a rather huge customer section - 4H and show people. You cannot show horned dairy goats - and some 4h groups don't allow horns on any goats BUT cashmeres.

Secondly - the danger. I don't care if any of your goats have been HURT by horns YET - as your herd increases you will need to increase feeders, waterers, and housing space exponentially if you have horns. Goats with horns ARE STILL GOATS and STILL ATTACK each other with little provocation all the time. Their favorite thing to do is hook back legs/underbellies with their horns. While I holler at them when I see the horned goats do this, I get to sit back and giggle when my disbudded goats viciously attack each other fighting over food or space - they can't hurt anything.

They CAN learn to get out of fencing on the ground with horns. But, if they stand on the fence and stick their head through the fence near the top, they may not be able to figure it out, hang and die (my friend had one die like this).

The heat issue - disbudded goats live happily worldwide with no more issues than horned goats as long as they have water and shade.

The argument that God put them there doesn't do much for me either - and it's not just that I'm nonreligious.

God made WILD goats with horns for battling for mates. These are goats that do not have fencing, feeders, confinement, or regular handling.

Defense is kinda shaky, too. Horned goats are just as likely to be killed as disbudded goats by any predator, or so it seems. They are prey animals and prone to panic, especially if the other goats in the herd panic as well. I'm not saying it can't happen with a cornered goat, but in all liklihood that goat will panic sometime. Predators are likely to pick off young or weak stock anyways - the ones who won't be able to defend themselves, horns or not.

FunnyRiverFarm · #25 03/05/11, 11:00 AM

No horns, no way.

I know that many folks with horned goats will say that they have not had any major problems with them...Buttttt, IMO, it is not a risk worth taking. It only takes one time of a horned kid trying to jump on your lap unexpectedly to loose an eyeball...it only takes one time of a moody doe butting another goat at the feeder to end up with a gigantic puncture wound to deal with...and it goes on and on.

I also find the "because God made them that way" defense to be a bit ridiculous. God also made human males with foreskins but we almost always remove them...why? Because it makes boys/men less vulnerable to certain conditions...it's considered by many to be the SAFER alternative.

Wags · #26 03/05/11, 11:39 AM

No horns for all the many reasons already listed. It's just not worth the risks.

bluefish · #27 03/05/11, 11:53 AM

I will never again have goats WITHOUT horns. They all have little man syndrome and they get their heads stuck way more often than my horned ones. All my horned goats have better temperaments and seem happier than the others. All of them have learned to be careful of their horns around people. I've had more accidents involving goats stepping on people/animals/things than I've ever had with horns.

As you can see, it's a big issue for people. You kind of just have to try it and see what you like.

coso · #28 03/05/11, 01:24 PM

Nope no horns on dairy does, seen too many use them as weapons on other does and kids when I was a kid.

LittleRedHen · #29 03/05/11, 01:28 PM

I have the same kind of fence for my goats and once I bought two goats who had horns. I only had them 2 weeks before moving them on out because i got sick and tired of getting their head out of the fencing!

CheerfulMom4 · #30 03/05/11, 01:31 PM

I won't have one with horns. I've had a few, sold them and won't get any more for many of the reasons listed above.

RoyalValley · #31 03/05/11, 02:57 PM

We have 3 boer does that all have nice horns. They did get them stuck in the fence when we first got them. Now they are big enough that they don't get stuck at all anymore. I watch them scratch themselves with them and it's just amazing how they can get literally any place on their body with those things. I do like them as handles when I have to hold them.

The only one that really uses is them is the herd queen, I don't like it, but she's not hurt anyone with them.

I won't be milking them, so as a dairy animal, I can't say. But now that they are bigger, they are just fine with them. They never try to 'play' or hurt any of the humans that go out there.

mabeane · #32 03/05/11, 03:02 PM

No horns...got rid of my one horned goat. Safety issues.

CaliannG · #33 03/05/11, 07:22 PM

Ahhh, the Great Horned Debate arrives on the forum again.

No-one dehorns their Boers...in fact, part of the judging in Boers is on horns. No one disbuds their Fainters, their Angoras, Pygoras, their Savannas, or their Cashmeres. And yet, people who keep these breeds (all meat goats) do not have reports of constant goring of herd mates resulting in ripped up udders. People do not report how their 3 and 4 year olds were "bruised" (BRUISED? Jesus H.! My minis can "bruise" my granddaughter with a hoof by accident! Like not having horns is going to keep a child from getting a boo-boo! Best not have trees around to climb or bikes to fall off of either, as those things can result in a kid getting bruises!) by their Pygmy goat's horns and that they are therefore going to disbud their Pygmies forever more.

Nope, this debate is ONLY about DAIRY goats. It's okay for a 4-H kid to have a hugely horned example of a Spanish Meat Goat at the fair....but if it is a Sanaan instead, then it is dangerous, Dangerous, DANGEROUS and *cannot* be allowed in a SHOW!

Because, I guess, we all know how wild and aggressive those dairy goats are compared to your average meat goat! ~rolls her eyes~

However, do listen to mygoats....the market IS prejudiced against dairy goats with horns. If you want a decent price for goats you are going to sell in the future, get them disbudded.

If you are buying a goat for your herd and you plan on keeping her for a good, long while, and what you sell her for in the future is not really an issue to you, then horns don't matter.

I have had goats with horns and goats without horns. My PREFERENCE is to never, ever, ever disbud ever again.....but, unfortunately, I sell to a show market and that is pretty much impossible.

If that ban was ever lifted, and the U.S., like EVERY COUNTRY IN EUROPE, and Mexico, etc., etc., allowed goats with horns to be shown (In some countries, goats that are disbudded are disqualified!) then I would never disbud/dehorn another goat ever, ever again.

I have never had a problem with horns. They have not interfered with milking for me, of health check-ups, etc. I'd buy a goat with horns any day of the week.

Oat Bucket Farm · #34 03/05/11, 08:06 PM

I don't think the "god made them that way" holds water simply because there are naturally polled goats. But different people have different likes and dislikes in goats. Horns are not something I will ever have but others don't seem to mind them.

CaliannG · #35 03/05/11, 08:22 PM

Polled goats are a mutation. A genetic defect.

I am with Suzanne:

(((((Removed personal contact information)))))
DISBUDDING AND DE-HORNING GOATS

Disbudding a goat can be a dangerous . . . even life-threatening . . . medical procedure. The producer uses a very hot iron to burn the horn buds off the head of a kid that is often not more than a week old. The kid's brain can be permanently damaged by misuse of the disbudding iron. The possibility of infection is great. Tetatnus and even death may occur.

There are only two valid reasons to disbud a goat, one of which is to adapt the goat's head to fit into a milk stanchion. Horned goats present a significant problem in a milking line. The only other good reason for disbudding is when goats are housed in barns in very cold climates during much of the year. Disbudding reduces the chance of injury in such confined situations.

It is this author's opinion that every other reason given for disbudding goats is neither valid reasoning nor sound logic, including disbudding done for purposes of showing goats in fairs and other events. Adults should learn how to handle goats in a manner that puts them less at risk of getting hurt by horns. Children who are working with or living around livestock should be taught to respect the horns and learn to stay out of their way. This can be learned. If humans, both adults and kids, cannot do this, they should not be raising goats. To so drastically and dangerously modify an animal's body solely to suit one's own personal desires is unconscionable.

Horns serve legitimate purposes for the goat. Since goats are sprinters rather than long-distance runners, horns provide one of the few natural defenses against predators that this species has available to it. Meat goats, particularly those out on pasture, need every advantage that they can get in order to survive. Horns also serve as cooling mechanisms, functioning much like an automobile radiator on a hot day.

De-horning goats is just plain cruel. De-horning describes the process of cutting off horns that have already grown to significant size. Horns have an extensive blood supply running through them. Below the horns, in the skull, are large sinus cavities. Removing horns down to their base exposes the inside of the goat's head to serious infection. The very best one can hope for in such a procedure is that the goat is going to have a king-sized headache for many hours. When goats are dehorned, death from shock or infection is a definite possibility.

Treat your goats humanely. Do not disbud unless one of the two circumstances mentioned above exists. If you participate in shows, work towards removing the disbudding/de-horning rules that are so abusive of goats. Do the right thing for your goats. Do not disbud or de-horn.

6e · #36 03/05/11, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

Ahhh, the Great Horned Debate arrives on the forum again.

No-one dehorns their Boers...in fact, part of the judging in Boers is on horns. No one disbuds their Fainters, their Angoras, Pygoras, their Savannas, or their Cashmeres. And yet, people who keep these breeds (all meat goats) do not have reports of constant goring of herd mates resulting in ripped up udders. People do not report how their 3 and 4 year olds were "bruised" (BRUISED? Jesus H.! My minis can "bruise" my granddaughter with a hoof by accident! Like not having horns is going to keep a child from getting a boo-boo! Best not have trees around to climb or bikes to fall off of either, as those things can result in a kid getting bruises!) by their Pygmy goat's horns and that they are therefore going to disbud their Pygmies forever more.

Nope, this debate is ONLY about DAIRY goats. It's okay for a 4-H kid to have a hugely horned example of a Spanish Meat Goat at the fair....but if it is a Sanaan instead, then it is dangerous, Dangerous, DANGEROUS and *cannot* be allowed in a SHOW!

Because, I guess, we all know how wild and aggressive those dairy goats are compared to your average meat goat! ~rolls her eyes~

However, do listen to mygoats....the market IS prejudiced against dairy goats with horns. If you want a decent price for goats you are going to sell in the future, get them disbudded.

If you are buying a goat for your herd and you plan on keeping her for a good, long while, and what you sell her for in the future is not really an issue to you, then horns don't matter.

I have had goats with horns and goats without horns. My PREFERENCE is to never, ever, ever disbud ever again.....but, unfortunately, I sell to a show market and that is pretty much impossible.

If that ban was ever lifted, and the U.S., like EVERY COUNTRY IN EUROPE, and Mexico, etc., etc., allowed goats with horns to be shown (In some countries, goats that are disbudded are disqualified!) then I would never disbud/dehorn another goat ever, ever again.

I have never had a problem with horns. They have not interfered with milking for me, of health check-ups, etc. I'd buy a goat with horns any day of the week.

I will add to this, as we did raise and breed Angoras, and that you cannot register a disbudded Angora. They must have their horns and even with our buck with his 4' horn spread......he never gored or hurt anyone. And we've raised Boers....all with their horns and never had any trouble. It's a dairy goat thing.

But I "personally" don't like horns and won't usually buy a dairy goat with horns. I think it makes them ugly. LOL But Boers look fine with them....go figure.

wmsff · #37 03/05/11, 08:48 PM

Well...... Lots of opinions here. My biggest fear was the fencing. A very close second was the experiences I had as a child with my Nubian who used to rear up and butt if I turned my back on her. She didn't have horns, but it still hurt.

I did go out and it turns out the guy used very old pictures on his website. It only his original 2 does and working buck who have horns. The remaining 30+ do not.

He sells both raw and pasturized milk and cheese. I was very impressed with his facility.

Since testing on my Saanen showed no issues, I brought home a La Mancha. My vet advised a lot of goats this year did not make it through the winter as it was a nasty one.

I believe will be going back there and pick out one or two young ones this summer. He apparently breeds year round.

CaliannG · #38 03/05/11, 09:01 PM

Well, 6E, if dairy goats had been judged partially on the looks of their horns for the past 30-50 years, I'd bet that today's dairy goats would have better looking horns!

Someone said that goats had been de-horned or disbudded for 1000's of years? That is false. CATTLE have been de-horned, off and on in different cultures, for 1000's of years, but the 20th century was the first time in history that anyone got the bright idea to do it to *goats*.

And it has created problems. This is an abstract of a study done in New Zealand on it:

Cerebral infarction and meningoencephalitis following hot-iron disbudding of goat kids.

Thompson KG, Bateman RS, Morris PJ.

Institute of Veterinary, Animal and Biomedical Sciences, Massey University, Private Bag 11222, Palmerston North, New Zealand. K.G.Thompson@massey.ac.nz
Abstract

CASE HISTORY: Twelve of 150 goat kids, 4-10 days old, died 3 days after disbudding with a hot iron. Another 18 kids had been ill the previous day but survived following antibiotic therapy. Five of the dead kids were necropsied. PATHOLOGICAL FINDINGS: There was necrosis and haemorrhage of the skin, subcutaneous tissues and frontal bone at disbudding sites in all five kids examined post mortem. Beneath disbudding sites in 4/5 kids there were bilateral, dark red, often cavitated areas of necrosis extending deep into the frontal cortex of the brain. Histologically, these areas consisted of coagulation necrosis, haemorrhage, vascular thrombosis and suppurative inflammation. Numerous bacteria, predominantly large Gram positive rods, were present in the necrotic brain tissue. In the remaining kid, bilateral areas of yellow discolouration and flattening of gyri in frontal lobes corresponded histologically to extensive polioencephalomalacia. A mixed growth of aerobes and anaerobes was cultured from the brain of one kid with suppurative lesions. CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Thermal disbudding of neonatal kids is widely practised in dairy goat herds and is considered the method of choice for disbudding in New Zealand. However, the skull of goat kids is much thinner than that of calves and the safety margin for thermal injury to the brain is markedly reduced. This report highlights the risks associated with the technique and its potential as a welfare issue.
*******************************************

Dis-budding and de-horning in goats is done for the sake of FASHION or CONVENIENCE. If it was actually done for the health and safety of the goats, then it would have been common practice across the board in ALL types of goats, not JUST dairy goats. And truthfully, it has only recently become common among small producers. Even in dairy herds, it USED to only be common in COMMERCIAL dairy herds.

So, first, the practice became common among commercial dairies, for the very real difficulty of horns and commercial stanchions. Then, the show breeders picked it up, ONLY for the reasons of FASHION. Now, everyone likes to rationalize why it is a good idea to torture baby goats with hot irons, and not even use pain killers. (I use analgesics. Most people don't even do that.)

Sorry, I am not buying the hype. Most of it sounds to me like the same rationalizations people used in Great Britain to excuse the fact that they cut off horse's tails because of fashion. And, of course, the show rules state you HAVE to mutilate many breeds of dogs to show them. The rationalizations? Oh, those tails have to be docked because the dog will wag them so had that they will beat up the tail and get it all infected and nasty. They mumble about ear infections when you ask about cutting up puppy ears, even though no one has been able to prove that Boxers are more prone to ear infections than cocker spaniels.

It's just more excuses, more rationalizations, more mumblings ..... there are no real REASONS to be so cruel.

6e · #39 03/05/11, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

Well, 6E, if dairy goats had been judged partially on the looks of their horns for the past 30-50 years, I'd bet that today's dairy goats would have better looking horns!

That is highly possible. As it stands, the dairy goats I've seen have these big ugly things that grow straight up, not pretty and curved back like the Angoras or the Boers. I will say this......horned goats can't get their head out of the stanchion. I have one girl who has such a little head she can just slip right out of there.

mekasmom · #40 03/05/11, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

If that ban was ever lifted, and the U.S., like EVERY COUNTRY IN EUROPE, and Mexico, etc., etc., allowed goats with horns to be shown (In some countries, goats that are disbudded are disqualified!) then I would never disbud/dehorn another goat ever, ever again.

I've seen kids take horned goats to the fair for 4H even though it is supposed to be no horns on dairy goats. They don't disqualify them. It's just up to the judge, and around here, kids are more important than some silly rule. They still get ribbons and get praised for taking good care of their animals.
I've heard lots of stories about people disqualifying all sorts of animals at 4H for one thing or another, but I do have to say that it doesn't happen here. Thankfully it's more kid friendly than rule-bound.

Either way, honestly, horns aren't a big deal. And if they do have them, and it turns out to be a "nasty" goat. Those horns are great for catching and leading them to the truck to go to the meat auction. My husband brought home one nasty buck that we used the horns to drag to the meat sale. He was awful, but he didn't kill anyone with his horns.