Help ASAP - More kidding problems?
 

The momma to the doe with the udder issue and 2 dead kids is kidding tonight -
today there was clear goop. . .
tonight - amber goop around 11:00. . .
1:00am - water bubble no real dilation
Now it is 2:30 am and a second water bubble and dilation . . .
no kids. . haven't went in the check yet. . .
seems to be going very slow - this would be her second freshening and last year she had issues. . .hard kidding, some spinal injury that last months - did not intend to breed her anymore - buck got out and so here we are. . .

Is this taking too long? It seems to be. . .worries be after loosing the two 2 days ago.

It's only taking too long if she's pushing HARD but making no progress

If she's not having contractions every few minutes, it's still "early labor"

She isn't pushing hard often - I was up there for 10 minutes with my husband - she didn't push at all - here is a backend photo:

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...rissues014.jpg

the bubble has been like that for about 1 1/2 hours and there was a second bubble my husband said for a bit and it is now gone and hasn't reappeared

She seemed very miserable 3 hours ago and now seems kind of better. . .
kids are still alive - you can see them moving all over

:( :( the vet is on his way - I can't get them out. . .I dont see how either the kids or the doe can make it :(

hope see is ok! keep us posted when you can! poor goat

Hope all goes well Creamers. Keep us posted and we are praying for the very best.

Good golly, good luck hopefully the vet has experience untangling goats I've encountered some bad ones over the years.

Please, dear Lord, let everything be okay. (((hugs))) to you and all involved.

Hoping everything is ok!

any update yet hope everything is ok?

The tail is in the way, Im wondering about placenta previa. Im wondering if the blood "thing" closest to her tail is a placenta button. I hope all goes well.

To stimulate natural contractions in a doe I rub the cervix. I had a doe that piddled out in labor after pushing for a while (middle of the night) Did a check she was fully dilated. Couldnt wait for dh to get back with the oxy. Threw her into contrax hard, broke the kids water and helped to bring him in position. Also milk her out just a little should help with some contrax.

I know this information will not help you now. I hope to help somene else.

I had a terrible feeling about the kidding the whole time yesterday and last night. . .

The vet tried and could not get them out - it was already too late for the doe at that point. . .he put her down and cut open and the kid - long since dead. . .(they were alive at 1am - you could see them moving) were HUGE - they never could have been born. . . just two :(

She was out first dairy goat. . .by far our favorite. I really feel, at this point, I am totally finished with goats. . .sadly, at least, Nubians. . .the kidding issues have proven too much for me.

I'm so sorry (((hugs)))

I'm so sorry you have had so much trouble. Please don't make any rash decisions. If you have no more does ready to kid, just take some time to let things settle down and see how you feel then. I think these severe kind of problems are fairly rare - some people go many many years with no problem at all. Maybe you have used up all your bad luck now :)

Maybe when you are ready you could post on HT about your management, feeding, etc. and see if anyone has any ideas. Since you said the does were related, they may even have had some genetic problem?

Hugs and please know you did the best that you could. Many people would not even have called the vet....

Kitty

Boy, do I know how you feel. Except as of now Muffin is still with us. Man my heart goes out to you. I said the same thing on tuesday but am feeling better with the new babies since then. I hope you can get some rest now, i couldnt sleep after our expeireince had to take something,
Like everyone told me, you did all you could, and even though you are sad, you can be its ok. I am so so sorry that you lost you sweet doe,

I do everything to the letter. . .I wish it could be traced to a management problem :(
At least I could learn and correct it. . .but it isn't.

It really may be genetic - something I cannot see that would indicate to someone else there would be kidding problems - too narrow, too steep. . . or the buck produces kids too large for does these size - Nubian buck, but his kids have proven large. These does are slightly smaller than most Nubian does, though they are purebred and registered.

I feed high quality ration - plenty of alfalfa pellets, free choice hay, they get whole oats, boss, cracked corn and the alfalfa. . .

Quality loose mineral

Copper bolused once to twice a year

BO-SE twice a year

Calcium injections on hand incase of "milk fever" - banamine, dex, probios, thiamine, etc. . .you know, everything one keeps in the goat medicine cabinet.

I am SO sorry, Creamers. All your hard work and all your dedication - to have this nightmare. I know you understand that *you* did not do anything wrong. It sounds so trite, but, sometimes these things happen, and we have no control. I wish for you peace. Time will take care of the heartache. (((hugs)))

Step back and take a deep breath...

You say you feed a quality dairy ration.
How much?
While bred and lactating or dry?

While not your fault, if you feed too much grain during pregnancy without milking the result could be large kids.

What ratio of the grains do they get?

We can all work it out to try to solve the problem, don't give up. We have all been there. Usually over a few years, not all at once.

don't give up.... giving up is just too easy and if something is easy then it is just to good to be true! u have to pull your self together give it a little bit. never ever give up. were all here for you!

I am so sorry Creamers, sending hugs to you! You sure have had a horrible kidding season this year but don't give up. Give it a few days before making any decisions, things will probly look clearer in a few days.
Sounds like your doing all you can for them & it was in the genetics, like you said you had no intention of breeding her again but hers & the bucks intentions were different.

((((Hugs)))) I don't have a lot of experience, but when you said the two does were related & there were problems last year as well, then I wondered if it was genetics, too.

Bucks can be pretty determined.

You are in our prayers.

I'm so sorry.
Some bucks do throw too large kids no matter what. These bucks should be culled to the freezer in my opinion.
Feeding *too* much grain during pregnancy can also cause issues....don't know if that could be it. It causes two problems that make for physical reasons does may have trouble. It can cause kids to be too big, and it causes fat to deposit around the reproductive area, causing kids to be a very tight fit or impossible to fit when it comes to labour...
And it might run in that line.:grump:

As I've thought about it, I think overfeeding grain might be a problem here - because our hay isn't the best quality. . . .simply due to this area and our ability is limited to haul from other regions. . .to keep condition in the late fall and winter. . .they
do likely get too much grain.

I feed Whole oats, BOSS and cracked corn - mixed from the mill - I've done Purina Goat Chow and Blue Seal Caprine Challenger in the past, too, but saw about the same condition on the above mix, I use about 10% alfalfa pellets, which I'm thinking now might have cause a ratio problem . . .but I thought due to our poorer forage, the alfalfa pellets would be a boost. . .I believe Timothy pellets would have been best in the pregnant and dry does. . .

Many people free-choice alfalfa pellets with great results. I wouldn't stop feeding alfalfa pellets to your pregnant does for sure, thats asking for kidding problems. I personally feed alfalfa pellets in the AM(they eat on them off and on all day), and there is grass/clover hay available at all times. I feed about 50 lbs of alfalfa pellets to 20 head of bred/milking does. Thats still under the reccomended 3 lbs per head per day. They do great.
Grain causes fat goats. Alfalfa causes big goats. The only time I've seen alfalfa cause fat goats is when the goats being fed are non-working goats.
And the excercise thing is a biggie too of course.
And I'm really tempted to think it might run in that line. There are simply some lines that are not meant to survive. I had one of those myself. Nothing lasted past 4 years without a serious issue. I eventually realized that and culled that line instead of trying to save it.

The thing is - while I wonder about the lines - the owner of the lines these come from have kids coming out their eyeballs. . .same on the sire's line. . .but could be the cross of the sire and dam's lines doesn't work :(

I am so unsure what to do about the feed issue. . . they haven't had exercise with the weather, and I wonder how much that has to do with it . . .

My husband said these were monster kids. . .

I am so sorry Creamers, this has been a bad kidding year for you : (

Creamers, I cannot even begin to say how very sorry I am. This has been a crummy year for you, goatwise, and darnit! It stinks on ice. :(

You know what? Maybe you need to take a day or two off from trying to sort this one out. Get yourself a glass of wine and run a hot tub (with bubbles?) and try to relax and give yourself a bit of a breather.

{hugs}

So very sorry...

OK lets start from the beginning.
Have these does been in milk prior to kidding?
If so when did you stop milking?
If not how much grain were you feeding? in lbs or quarts
The alfalfa is like hay so free choice if you can afford it is fine. Even poor quality hay free choice is fine.
A bred doe who is not in milk should get zero grain until she is at 100 day pregnant, 5 weeks to go.
Then slowly start with 1/4lb of the grain mix. Add a little more each week till you reach 1lb a day. That should be at kidding.


All that said if the buck throws big kids and you does are on the small side it is a bad combo. You can have a small buck cover the small girls especially if you just want milk from them.

Have these does been in milk prior to kidding? The doe that lived and had the kids die and has the udder injury was not - she was FF. The doe that had to be put down here and lost both kids had been in milk last year and never really dried off, though we stopped milking her months ago.

If so when did you stop milking? We stopped milking that doe in June - but her udder never tried totally off. . . heavy milking lines

If not how much grain were you feeding? in lbs or quarts
The pregnant does had been getting about 1-2 lbs each a day in a combo of 50% whole oats, 20% cracked corn, 10% BOSS and 20% alfalfa pellets

The alfalfa is like hay so free choice if you can afford it is fine. Even poor quality hay free choice is fine.

They have poorer quality hay - though it keeps weigh on most of the animals here easily - free choice.

These does do not keep good condition on zero grain once the fall sweeps in here. . .but they had no grain until late fall and we've slowly upped it to keep conditon.

I mean - I think of these does as smaller - but the one that had to be put down was 130 lbs, the FF was 100lbs. . .

The buck is 170 in top conditon.

Here are photos:

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._5371031_n.jpg Buck in the summer (he looks rough right now from rut - ugh)
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._3966404_n.jpg
There is Claire - the one we had to put down - the Black doe


All that said if the buck throws big kids and you does are on the small side it is a bad combo. You can have a small buck cover the small girls especially if you just want milk from them.
[/QUOTE]

So sorry to hear this Creamers. No one deserves this twice. Indeed, both beautiful does. Sincere condolences.

I'm so sorry you lost her. I hope you won't give up on goats. A couple of ideas here. If you give your goats BoSe prior to breeding, they will have an increased chance of having more kids and thus smaller ones. The other thing, you said she had goop during the day which progressed to amber goop. When you see amber goop, this is a sign that labor has gone on too long. This means there is meconium in there. When you see amber goo, you need to go in right away. If you find the kids are too large to deliver or too tangled, it's time for a C section. You can actually save a doe if you get the section done before her uterus is damaged from her being in labor too long.

I wish I'd known my vet would even do a section in the middle of the site at a price I could have afforded - which he did and could have, but I didn't know until too late :(

The does had fall BO-SE. . .