USDA has approved GM alfalfa

Bearfootfarm · #41 02/03/11, 03:49 PM

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BFF, do you actually KNOW anything about plants in general, or alfalfa in particular?

Yes, do you?

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Some will grow OUTSIDE of the field. Pollen will be wind or insect carried well past that field and into other fields

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfalfa

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Alfalfa seed production requires the presence of pollinators when the fields of alfalfa are in bloom.[3] Alfalfa pollination is somewhat problematic, however, because western honey bees, the most commonly used pollinator, are not suitable for this purpose; the pollen-carrying keel of the alfalfa flower trips and strikes pollinating bees on the head, which helps transfer the pollen to the foraging bee.[3] Western honey bees, however, do not like being struck in the head repeatedly and learn to defeat this action by drawing nectar from the side of the flower. The bees thus collect the nectar, but carry no pollen and so do not pollinate the next flower they visit.[44] Because older, experienced bees do not pollinate alfalfa well, most pollination is accomplished by young bees that have not yet learned the trick of robbing the flower without tripping the head-knocking keel. When western honey bees are used to pollinate alfalfa, the beekeeper stocks the field at a very high rate to maximize the number of young bees

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POLLINATION
Alfalfa must be cross-pollinated to set seed and insects are necessary for pollination

http://www.uoguelph.ca/plant/perform...ub/alfalfa.htm

farmerDale · #42 02/03/11, 04:05 PM

Exactly bearfoot. i am shocked people are frightened by this. SHOCKED.

Heritagefarm · #43 02/03/11, 04:32 PM

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Originally Posted by CaliannG

BFF, do you actually KNOW anything about plants in general, or alfalfa in particular?

Good question.

southerngurl · #44 02/03/11, 07:25 PM

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Yes there are some "wild" varieties, but most of what is planted is hybrid varieties which technically are "GMO's" , just done the natural way.

No sir, they are not GMO.

Heritagefarm · #45 02/03/11, 08:18 PM

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Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm

Yes there are some "wild" varieties, but most of what is planted is hybrid varieties which technically are "GMO's" , just done the natural way.

Really? When did Nature get gene guns?

texican · #46 02/03/11, 09:24 PM

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Originally Posted by southerngurl

Send a letter to the president. Maybe someone will read it.

Are we talking about the guy who's never had 'dirt under his nails' in his life, who's spent his entire existence in cities? Good luck with that...

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Originally Posted by goto10

http://www.environmentalleader.com/2...te-gm-alfalfa/

yes they are but now i am wondering how intelligent this is. The leaves of the plant ARE the crop unlike corn or soy which get washed or processed. Who would want to feed alfalfa with herbicide on it to their livestock and what farmer in their right mind would actually spray the stuff? Unless I misunderstand what Roundup Ready means.

I believe that all alfalfa is sprayed with something, either Roundup or something else, to keep weeds down.

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Originally Posted by Heritagefarm

Well, it is a problem... Sooner or later, weeds become resistant to an herbicide. However, this simply means that they create a new herbicide. It's a viscous cycle... Create an herbicide, have become useless, banned, outpriced, etc. and create a new one. Then have that one become useless, banned, outpriced, etc.

So, is there an alternative? to pesticides? See my next comment below.

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Originally Posted by CaliannG

1. Hand weeding. Yank the stuff up. Put some back into it when it comes to the roses.

Are you saying you'd hand weed a field of alfalfa? Or, do you have access to excess children, slaves, or un-smart Mexicans (who in my area at least, make a lot more than minimum wage... doing jobs Americans won't). I'm sure hand weeding is indeed an option on micro-fields. I'd have trouble covering all of my hayfield (around 10 acres) by foot, pulling up weeds by hand. Can't imagine a 100 acre patch of alfalfa getting hand weeded.

I think I asked this same question on the General Homesteading forum post about GM alfalfa... Can you buy 'organic alfalfa'? If it's hand weeded, is it indeed affordable? Not talking about one pound bags, but trailerloads of square bales? I daresay if you can now, odds are you won't be for long, if it's more economical to go with roundup ready alfalfa.

Btw... I hate and won't use roundup. But then I'm not in the business of raising food for the masses...

Bearfootfarm · #47 02/03/11, 10:33 PM

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No sir, they are not GMO.

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Really? When did Nature get gene guns?

Cross polliination of different varieties IS "genetic modification"

Heritagefarm · #48 02/03/11, 10:35 PM

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Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm

Cross polliination of different varieties IS "genetic modification"

No. No new genes are created.

rambler · #49 02/03/11, 10:48 PM

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Originally Posted by CaliannG

Hmmm, BFF, feeling aggressive at all recently? Perhaps a bit piqued?

I know it is not an annual plant. I know it regrows if it is mown down. I also know that the gun club didn't mow the stuff until mid-summer, well after it had flowered and seeded. I am fairly sure that I don't need to read any of your links to know you are likely right, and that seeding alfalfa probably DOES produce some elements that it leaks into the ground that inhibits new growth. Lots of plants do the same thing. Southern Pecans and Black Walnut secret inhibitors in much the same way.

The thing about it is that it doesn't inhibit it COMPLETELY. Else you would never be able to grow alfalfa on a field where alfalfa had previously flowered. Do you think the CENTURIES of farmers growing alfalfa since Biblical times and letting the stuff flower so they had seeds to plant elsewhere has REALLY made nearly all of the earth resistant to growing alfalfa?

And as for myself, and the area I lived in Colorado that had alfalfa pastures:

1. I rented the land. I didn't LET anything seed. When I took possession of the place, it had been under the care of benign neglect for YEARS. That's why I also had interesting bumper crops of red spring wheat among all of that alfalfa, morning glory, wild geranium and wild roses. Or perhaps you weren't reading well enough?

2. Why the heck should I mow for a pasture? Did you think I *wanted* bales of geranium/morning glory/rose/wheat/alfalfa hay? And tell me, what was I supposed to mow WITH? Go ask the gun club if I could borrow their mower? Sorry, dear lady, but I got those pastures under the attitude of benign neglect, and I kept them that way, letting my goats mow them as they pleased.

And last, but not least, did you fully miss the part where is grows WILD?? In the bits of green area in the church parking lot? On top of the under-ground rifle range at the gun club? In vacant lots? At the kindly, old lady's place on the other side of the gun club?

So if you ARE growing it for seed, I guess the ONLY place you can do that is someplace where alfalfa doesn't grow well?

Oh, and if you hadn't noticed, it is proper to harvest alfalfa IN FLOWER, but preferable to do so before it goes to seed. Alfalfa is NOT bamboo, ALL of the plants do not INSTANTLY go into flower all at once...therefore, farmers harvest it when the MAJORITY of it is in flower, but has not yet gone to seed.

Meaning that while most of the plants are pretty and purple, some of them haven't flowered YET....and some of them have already gone to seed.

And any plant that flowers can happily send its pollen miles away to someone who IS growing their alfalfa for SEED...or is simply not harvesting alfalfa anymore and letting their fields be fallow.

What is your answer, BFF, to all those back yards, vacant lots, ect., etc., that in some parts of the country, just have alfalfa growing in them, uncaredfor and untended? Is it okay to let them become contaminated by the sneaky pollen of GM types?

All it takes is ONE flower to loose its pollen....

This thread is getting a little heated, probably not so much to do with goats any more....

Alfalfa is an easily crossed plant so if you grow seed, you need to do so with much care and consideration of where you plant your seed field.

If you have an abandoned, weed infested field that you admit you don't bother to mow or tend to other then toss some goats in it & let them go, then why are you concerned about what sort of alfalfa is growing there? You really don't have much concern about whatis growing there, so it is a moot point from what I hear you say. You are allowing your stuff to go to seed, so it's pretty much on you - if something you don't want has crept in, that's pretty much your fault, be they morning glories or gmo alfalfa....

The world is interconnected, and machines can test for parts per billion any more. So we all pretty much realize there is nothing 100% pure anything. They allow so & so many rodent hairs in our food; they allow .5% gmo in our organic foods.

So, cries to be 100% perfect - just don't fit the world as we have it. We are humans, we aren't perfect, neither is nature.

How it is.

So, your whole message just seems to pass me by - I'm not sure what it is you're trying to argue? It's possible that negligent people can end up having a 1 in a billion seed crossing happen several generations over 20 year period. Alfalfa is a unique crop making this far harder that other crops for the many reasons explained to you, but sure it can happen.

But as you say, it would happen to people who are putting no effort, no care, into their crop, so really what would they care?

If they care, there are ways to prevent such issues.

So the harm is.....

Well, I can't see it? If you care about it, then tend to your crops and all will be fine.

--->Paul

Heritagefarm · #50 02/03/11, 11:13 PM

I think, really, the main problem is the massive amount of control the seed companies have... Control the food, you control the people, control the seeds, you control the food.

Bearfootfarm · #51 02/04/11, 01:26 AM

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No. No new genes are created.

No "new" genes are ever created, but simply moved around

Bearfootfarm · #52 02/04/11, 01:30 AM

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I think, really, the main problem is the massive amount of control the seed companies have... Control the food, you control the people, control the seeds, you control the food.

More rhetoric, still no substance.

No point in talking about it any more

See ya

shawnlee · #53 02/04/11, 02:49 AM

Things have really changed since I was young.......

Great grandpa used a portion of all of his harvests as seeds for next year......

We used to spread manure with the wagon over all the fields...

I used to walk the bean field from sun up to sun down with a bean hook.........you would be suprised at the acres you can cover in a week!

It would be interesting to go visit a modern farm and watch how it happens now!

Heritagefarm · #54 02/04/11, 10:36 AM

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Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm

More rhetoric, still no substance.

No point in talking about it any more

See ya

Sorry. I figured I was getting too technical.

southerngurl · #55 02/04/11, 12:04 PM

Cross polliination of different varieties IS "genetic modification".

By your definition, everything is genetically modified. So the term would have no meaning. If you want to go that route, then call it artificial genetic implantation or whatever. Term doesn't matter, we all understand it is different than any kind of natural breeding. Natural breeding stays within certain laws that have been set forth.

Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Bearfootfarm · #56 02/04/11, 02:07 PM

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Cross polliination of different varieties IS "genetic modification".

By your definition, everything is genetically modified. So the term would have no meaning.

Now you're getting it

Heritagefarm · #57 02/04/11, 03:34 PM

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Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm

Now you're getting it

If you honestly don't actually know how genetic engineering is done, go here:
http://www.ucsusa.org/food_and_agric...echniques.html

Bearfootfarm · #58 02/04/11, 03:44 PM

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If you honestly don't actually know how genetic engineering is done, go here:
http://www.ucsusa.org/food_and_agric...echniques.html

I know how it's done in a lab, and I know it happens naturally also.

If you don't actually know THAT, go here:

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Natural genetic engineering is the ability or capacity of organisms to modify their own genomes in response to reproductive pressures. Any self-organizing evolving system that needs to adjust to a wide variety of environments will require the capacity to alter its information store. Most existing living organisms appear to possess a toolkit of natural genetic engineering functions.

http://www.iscid.org/encyclopedia/Na...ic_Engineering

southerngurl · #59 02/04/11, 04:19 PM

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Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm

I know how it's done in a lab, and I know it happens naturally also.

I am unaware of any natural occurance where the genes from one class of animal mix with another. And I um certainly not aware of a natural occurrence where genes from an animal mix it's genes with those of a plant.

If it was natural, they wouldn't have to do it in a lab.

Bearfootfarm · #60 02/04/11, 10:16 PM

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I am unaware of any natural occurance where the genes from one class of animal mix with another.

That's why I posted a link, so you could become aware

We're talking about alfalfa.
That's not an animal

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If it was natural, they wouldn't have to do it in a lab.

Insemination is natural, but can be done artificially also

When weeds become resistant to Roundup, that is natural.
They simply did it in the lab to the alfalfa to save time and money