USDA has approved GM alfalfa

Heritagefarm · #21 02/02/11, 11:19 AM

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Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm

Then you should learn how to properly grow alfalfa

http://www.uwex.edu/ces/forage/wfc/p...in_alfalfa.htm

If you're truly concerned about "contamination, the absolute WORST thing you could do is let yours seed.

Only your way is best, right?

Heritagefarm · #22 02/02/11, 11:23 AM

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Originally Posted by CaliannG

herbicide resistance is another thing. I'd really like the herbicides we currently have to continue working.

Well, it is a problem... Sooner or later, weeds become resistant to an herbicide. However, this simply means that they create a new herbicide. It's a viscous cycle... Create an herbicide, have become useless, banned, outpriced, etc. and create a new one. Then have that one become useless, banned, outpriced, etc.

Bearfootfarm · #23 02/02/11, 11:48 AM

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Only your way is best, right?

That's your claim, not mine.

Unless you're raising alfalfa specifically for seed, then cross contamination isn't an issue at all.
Letting it "reseed" is pointless since it's aleopathic

Beowulf · #24 02/02/11, 02:14 PM

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Originally Posted by rambler

...

We see current gmo products appear to be safe so far as we can prove things, are introduced responsibly to the environment...

--->Paul

I have a problem with this statement.

Most GMO seed producers only sell their seed with a very restrictive license agreement that prevents anyone from studying their product using objectively. When the company making the profit is also the company publishing the safety study, it makes their work suspect at best.

I'm not saying the sky is falling, but if they really don't have anything to hide, then why hide behind the license?

southerngurl · #25 02/02/11, 02:46 PM

GM is not going to give us more food than sustainable integrated agriculture. It will give us more diseases.

These kind of things tend to backfire.

http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Documents/geneticsmyth.htm

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A couple of recent research studies raise some interesting questions about the validity of such assumptions. 'New Scientist' reported in November 1999 [15] that far from increasing output Monsanto's genetically modified soya beans were prone to stunted growth and excessive stem splitting in high temperature field conditions. This was apparently due to unintended changes in plant physiology caused by the addition of genes making the beans resistant to glyphosate, the herbicide marketed as 'Roundup' by Monsanto. It resulted in up to 40% yield losses compared to traditional soya beans grown in the same conditions.

Research results released at more or less the same time have also demonstrated that organic soya crops grown in high-stress drought conditions in the United States were in fact dramatically more productive than 'conventional' high-input crops. Their yield was almost double [16] thanks to less compacted and more water retentive soil characteristics arising from their higher organic matter content.

Monoculture is not the most efficient means of food production, GM or not. That said, there is a lot of food out there that goes to waste. If people weren't fighting with eachother all the time, they might have time to grow more too.

Our world has a system of food production in place set from the beginning of our time. Following it will give you the best most consistent outcomes. We are far from it today and looking to be even further.

We poison our food in pesticides, herbicides and fungicides. We poison our soil with chemical fertilizes that kill bacteria necessary for our plants to pull up nutrients. Then we often take that poor quality food and remove some of it's already depleted nutrients. And it doesn't take long to look around and see the results. We live in a nation filled with overweight malnourished people with all manner of diseases. Our largest industry is health care. An industry that produces no increase is our biggest industry. Think about that for a minute.

The bottom line is the GM foods have NOT been proven to be safe. The FDA basically said "They don't seem much different than regular food to us" and let them through without testing. Their own scientists disagreed.

http://www.responsibletechnology.org/fraud/fda-quotes

But since their is a revolving door between the FDA and the companies it's supposed to regulate, one could see how that could happen.

http://www.naturalnews.com/027527_Monsanto_FDA.html
http://www.salem-news.com/articles/j...nto-fda-ms.php

southerngurl · #26 02/02/11, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

I have a problem with this statement.

Most GMO seed producers only sell their seed with a very restrictive license agreement that prevents anyone from studying their product using objectively. When the company making the profit is also the company publishing the safety study, it makes their work suspect at best.

I'm not saying the sky is falling, but if they really don't have anything to hide, then why hide behind the license?

Not only that, but the farmers also signs on to take liability for contamination of other crops when Monsanto should be to blame for it.

Just the fact that it takes away independence from people, forcing them to come back year after year for their seeds is evil enough.

And take some time to read about what Monsanto did in Iraq.

CaliannG · #27 02/02/11, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm

Then you should learn how to properly grow alfalfa

http://www.uwex.edu/ces/forage/wfc/p...in_alfalfa.htm

If you're truly concerned about "contamination, the absolute WORST thing you could do is let yours seed.

Sure, I'll learn to grow alfalfa YOUR way, or as you state it, the PROPER way. ~smiles~ Because OBVIOUSLY God had no idea what He was doing when He created alfalfa and caused it to go to seed.

As it was, the area I was living in at the time had alfalfa going to seed EVERYWHERE. I did not notice that it made the area toxic for next year's alfalfa. The gun club next door habitually mowed theirs down about once a year, and it just grew, flowered, and seeded. (They did NOT bale it for hay, just mowed it.)

The same with the church across the street on the edges of their parking lot. Just mowed the stuff down. The vacant lots didn't have any mowing or maintenance, so their alfalfa didn't get mowed down.

The thing is, you are acting as if people who are *purposely* growing it doing so in what you consider a "proper" manner will keep GM alfalfa from contaminating other kinds. In this, you are wrong. There are too many areas of the country where alfalfa has naturalized itself, and pretty much grows "wild", for farmers and ranchers to be SURE that there isn't any non-GM alfalfa growing within that 3 mile radius.

Heck, on the Eastern Slope in Colorado, or many of the Southern regions of the state, you can't be sure the stuff isn't growing withing a couple of BLOCKS.

What are they to do, then, to keep GM type contained? Tell states and areas where alfalfa grows well and it is a main crop that they can't have any of the new stuff? Only grow it in areas where it is difficult to grow alfalfa and it is therefore unlikely that any will be found "wild"? Insist that anyone that grows the stuff raze the area with fire in a 3 mile radius and sow the earth with salt?

And if that is the case, why offer it at all?

And again, I do not consider a version of alfalfa that is resistant to Round-Up to be all that great of an innovation. The only thing that ever encroached on the alfalfa pastures I had in Colorado were wild morning glory, wild geranium, and wild roses.....and guess what? They are also "resistant to Round-Up". Believe me, I tried. There were only two things that kept the wild geranium, wild morning glories and wild roses out of my garden patches, pastures, and sidewalks:

1. Hand weeding. Yank the stuff up. Put some back into it when it comes to the roses.

2. Goats. They LOVE wild morning glory, wild geranium and wild roses. In fact, they pretty much ate those and left the alfalfa alone. Silly goats.

Bearfootfarm · #28 02/02/11, 04:36 PM

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. I did not notice that it made the area toxic for next year's alfalfa. The gun club next door habitually mowed theirs down about once a year, and it just grew, flowered, and seeded. (They did NOT bale it for hay, just mowed it.)

It would have regrown even if it didn't seed since it's NOT an "annual" plant.

I showed you scientific data.
Ignore it if you prefer your "observations" to the facts

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The thing is, you are acting as if people who are *purposely* growing it doing so in what you consider a "proper" manner will keep GM alfalfa from contaminating other kinds

If you arent' growing it for seed , it cannot be contaminated.

If you ARE growing it for seed, you do it where no other varieties are planted.

If you are growing it for pasture or hay, and are letting it seed, you're not cutting it soon enough

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/procrop/leg/legest05.htm

Heritagefarm · #29 02/02/11, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

I have a problem with this statement.

Most GMO seed producers only sell their seed with a very restrictive license agreement that prevents anyone from studying their product using objectively. When the company making the profit is also the company publishing the safety study, it makes their work suspect at best.

I'm not saying the sky is falling, but if they really don't have anything to hide, then why hide behind the license?

This is why we have very little reliable data on GMOs. The Arpad Puztai-potato case was adequate to show the massive amounts of political control behind these companies, amongst many other cases. Now... I am not a TOTAL opponent of GMOs. I think they have their place, but not with the current regulations in place.

southerngurl · #30 02/02/11, 05:05 PM

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Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm

It would have regrown even if it didn't seed since it's NOT an "annual" plant.

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It does die out after a certain amount of years if not replanted.

I showed you scientific data.
Ignore it if you prefer your "observations" to the facts

If you arent' growing it for seed , it cannot be contaminated.

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Sure it can, even if you cut it before it seeds, there are always straglers or corners of the field that may not be cut

If you ARE growing it for seed, you do it where no other varieties are planted.

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Often things change after you move to a place. Should people have to run from people who contaminate their property? Or should it just not be allowed to contaminate other people's property?

If you are growing it for pasture or hay, and are letting it seed, you're not cutting it soon enough

Quote:

Crap happens.

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/procrop/leg/legest05.htm

......

CaliannG · #31 02/02/11, 05:07 PM

Hmmm, BFF, feeling aggressive at all recently? Perhaps a bit piqued?

I know it is not an annual plant. I know it regrows if it is mown down. I also know that the gun club didn't mow the stuff until mid-summer, well after it had flowered and seeded. I am fairly sure that I don't need to read any of your links to know you are likely right, and that seeding alfalfa probably DOES produce some elements that it leaks into the ground that inhibits new growth. Lots of plants do the same thing. Southern Pecans and Black Walnut secret inhibitors in much the same way.

The thing about it is that it doesn't inhibit it COMPLETELY. Else you would never be able to grow alfalfa on a field where alfalfa had previously flowered. Do you think the CENTURIES of farmers growing alfalfa since Biblical times and letting the stuff flower so they had seeds to plant elsewhere has REALLY made nearly all of the earth resistant to growing alfalfa?

And as for myself, and the area I lived in Colorado that had alfalfa pastures:

1. I rented the land. I didn't LET anything seed. When I took possession of the place, it had been under the care of benign neglect for YEARS. That's why I also had interesting bumper crops of red spring wheat among all of that alfalfa, morning glory, wild geranium and wild roses. Or perhaps you weren't reading well enough?

2. Why the heck should I mow for a pasture? Did you think I *wanted* bales of geranium/morning glory/rose/wheat/alfalfa hay? And tell me, what was I supposed to mow WITH? Go ask the gun club if I could borrow their mower? Sorry, dear lady, but I got those pastures under the attitude of benign neglect, and I kept them that way, letting my goats mow them as they pleased.

And last, but not least, did you fully miss the part where is grows WILD?? In the bits of green area in the church parking lot? On top of the under-ground rifle range at the gun club? In vacant lots? At the kindly, old lady's place on the other side of the gun club?

So if you ARE growing it for seed, I guess the ONLY place you can do that is someplace where alfalfa doesn't grow well?

Oh, and if you hadn't noticed, it is proper to harvest alfalfa IN FLOWER, but preferable to do so before it goes to seed. Alfalfa is NOT bamboo, ALL of the plants do not INSTANTLY go into flower all at once...therefore, farmers harvest it when the MAJORITY of it is in flower, but has not yet gone to seed.

Meaning that while most of the plants are pretty and purple, some of them haven't flowered YET....and some of them have already gone to seed.

And any plant that flowers can happily send its pollen miles away to someone who IS growing their alfalfa for SEED...or is simply not harvesting alfalfa anymore and letting their fields be fallow.

What is your answer, BFF, to all those back yards, vacant lots, ect., etc., that in some parts of the country, just have alfalfa growing in them, uncaredfor and untended? Is it okay to let them become contaminated by the sneaky pollen of GM types?

All it takes is ONE flower to loose its pollen....

southerngurl · #32 02/02/11, 05:10 PM

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Originally Posted by CaliannG

All it takes is ONE flower to loose its pollen....

Exactly

Bearfootfarm · #33 02/02/11, 10:13 PM

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What is your answer, BFF, to all those back yards, vacant lots, ect., etc., that in some parts of the country, just have alfalfa growing in them, uncaredfor and untended? Is it okay to let them become contaminated by the sneaky pollen of GM types?

Yes, because unless you are planting or harvesting the SEEDS, nothing is "contaminated"

Other plots won't last long without care, since alfalfa stands aren't that easy to maintain.

It's much fuss over nothing at all

If you aren't growing for seed there is no comtamination

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The first cutting in the spring can be made when the crop is in the bud to early- bloom stage. During the spring there is generally limited environmental stress and the alfalfa crop can normally tolerate early cutting. Harvesting at the bud stage has allowed producers to get more cuttings per year, increase their production, and improve the quality of their forage. However, in order to cut this early, there should be optimum levels of soil pH, phosphorus, and potassium, and plants should be allowed to reach the first- bloom stage at least once during the year.

http://www.forages.psu.edu/topics/ha...t/alfalfa.html

Heritagefarm · #34 02/02/11, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm

Yes, because unless you are planting or harvesting the SEEDS, nothing is "contaminated?

Other plots won't last long without care, since alfalfa stands aren't that easy to maintain.

It's much fuss over nothing at all

If you aren't growing for seed there is no comtamination

http://www.forages.psu.edu/topics/ha...t/alfalfa.html

You're talking in circles and I am getting very dizzy.

Bearfootfarm · #35 02/03/11, 12:43 AM

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You're talking in circles and I am getting very dizzy.

I'm sorry you're confused.

It's really not that complicated.

southerngurl · #36 02/03/11, 09:18 AM

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Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm

Yes, because unless you are planting or harvesting the SEEDS, nothing is "contaminated"

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So, are we going to have to run surveys before we plant our contaminating crops now? Hey, is it OK if I contaminate your crop- were you planning on using any seed?
It's none of your neighbors business what they're doing with their field, just dont contaminate it for them. And yes, even if it doesn't seed it is contaminated as the pollen is all over the place. Pollen from GMO plants has made people sick too. Then what about my (hypothetical) bees? My honey and pollen gets contaminated too.

Other plots won't last long without care, since alfalfa stands aren't that easy to maintain.

I've seen it growing wild. It wouldn't have survived this long if it always had to have someone taking care of it. A few wild plants or plants on the edge of a field get pollinated, then in turn pollinate some others, maybe a seed field. Its bound to leak eventually, 100% guaranteed.

Heritagefarm · #37 02/03/11, 11:30 AM

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Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm

I'm sorry you're confused.

It's really not that complicated.

I said I was getting dizzy, not confused.

Bearfootfarm · #38 02/03/11, 12:20 PM

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I've seen it growing wild. It wouldn't have survived this long if it always had to have someone taking care of it. A few wild plants or plants on the edge of a field get pollinated, then in turn pollinate some others, maybe a seed field. Its bound to leak eventually, 100% guaranteed.

That only happens if the SEED from those plants grow and flower,

Most stands of alfalfa only last a few years with the ORIGINAL plants, and very little, if any,reseeding takes place.

The plants in the field don't get "contaminated" or changed in any way

If you PROPERLY manage your fields, there is NO contamination

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfalfa

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This plant exhibits autotoxicity, which means it is difficult for alfalfa seed to grow in existing stands of alfalfa.[4] Therefore, it is recommended that alfalfa fields be rotated with other species (for example, corn or wheat) before reseeding.[5]

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Ideally, the first cutting should be taken at the bud stage, and the subsequent cuttings just as the field is beginning to flower, or one tenth bloom for the reason that carbohydrates are at their highest.[36]

CaliannG · #39 02/03/11, 01:38 PM

BFF, do you actually KNOW anything about plants in general, or alfalfa in particular?

Alfalfa that is growing wild, a.k.a. unchecked and untended, reseeds and re-grows every year. Some of those seeds take root and grow. In spite of what you think, untended alfalfa fields do no "die out" after a few years....alfalfa will continue to grow in a vacant lot or field, happily, for DECADES, with no difficulty.

The only thing the autotoxins do is reduce PRODUCTION in commercial fields...yields will be lower, but there will STILL BE YIELDS. All the plants don't just die off. Auto-toxins prevent alfalfa from growing in the DENSITY that is preferred by commercial growers for bigger profits, they do not keep seeds and seedlings from growing AT ALL.

Therefore, no matter how ignorant you actually are about horticulture and agriculture, in areas where the climate is favorable to alfalfa, there will be contamination if GM alfalfa is grown. Some alfalfa in a field ALWAYS goes to seed. Some will grow OUTSIDE of the field. Pollen will be wind or insect carried well past that field and into other fields. There will be cross-pollination and seed production in areas that are favorable to growing alfalfa.

GM seeds, and seeds from crossbred GM/regular alfalfa WILL hit the ground, AND GROW if GM alfalfa is planted ANYWHERE that alfalfa happily grows untended.

And claiming that such a thing is impossible only shows that you have no clue how plants work.

Bearfootfarm · #40 02/03/11, 03:36 PM

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And claiming that such a thing is impossible only shows that you have no clue how plants work.

LOL
Where did I say "impossible".

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The only thing the autotoxins do is reduce PRODUCTION in commercial fields...yields will be lower,

If "production" is lower, there must be fewer plants, since "commercial" farmers would be fertilizing for maximum growth

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Therefore, no matter how ignorant you actually are about horticulture and agriculture, in areas where the climate is favorable to alfalfa, there will be contamination if GM alfalfa is grown

That's your claim, yet to be proven.

It's still lots of emotional handwringing over nothing at all, since you've already admitted you don't take care of your field anyway

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I've seen it growing wild

Yes there are some "wild" varieties, but most of what is planted is hybrid varieties which technically are "GMO's" , just done the natural way.

As I said before, if you are TRULY worried your field will be "contaminated" you'd mow/harvest it BEFORE IT SEEDS. rather than trying to control what everyone else does