Buying goats from a CL in goat herd

**mygoat** · #41 01/26/11, 10:59 AM

I didn't say impossible, just not likely. It takes a fairly large number of bacteria to cause disease (though admittedly lower in immune-compromised animals), so it would require pretty specific conditions for CL to be transmitted this way. Otherwise, it would happen a LOT more often and biosecurity measures wouldn't work. But, apparently it does work very well as many herds stay disease free with a little bit of effort.

Creamers · #42 01/26/11, 11:14 AM

I agree, totally, Paul!

LaManchaPaul · #43 01/26/11, 11:15 AM

I suppose that it is possible that a CL on a deer bursts while walking across the farm, to infect a goat. However that would be a risk; bringing home a 'non-lumpy' goat from a farm with known CL isn't a risk. That is insanity.

I've killed a lot of deer. Never have I seen a lump outside or in the organs.

Oat Bucket Farm · #44 01/26/11, 11:30 AM

I have to think that if it were so contagious that deer and flies could easily spread it, then it would in fact be everywhere. Every deer would have it, as would every cow,sheep,goat,horse,human,bird etc. It would literally be everywhere. So, despite it being able to survive on fomites, it must be able to be destryed to some extent by sunlight and temps and such.

For the most part (there are exception to every case of course) I think that as long as people make sure they maintain goats that are as healthy as possible, and do not invite into our herds by bringing in infected goats I don't think there is much to fear from deer and flies. Unless maybe you lived in an area where lots of deer with weeping abcesses were laying around your goat living places. I live in an area where there is a lot of deer hunting and I have yet to hear of a story of a hunter who found a bunch of abcesses (either internal or external) on a deer. Perhaps it is not as prevelant in deer as some think.

susanne · #45 01/26/11, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaManchaPaul

Susanne, please weigh in on this post!

Paul

i think the poster got mixed up with cae. numbers sound right although i hope with internet and teaching new goat owners testing is more wide spread and numbers are coming down.
would i take goats if i know the person has cl? you bet i wouldn't but run the other way.
even if i get slapped again, a lot of meat goat breeder (yes there are some with ethics) seem to have a different approach with cl infection.
can you imagine drinking milk with puss in it even if it is pasteurized? yuk, yuk, yuk.

remember, cl is a zoonotic disease, all warm blooded animals, including humans can get this. cae is not transmittable and with proper care can be managed. does not mean i would recommend buying cae positive goats. just the world doesn't end if one comes back positive after testing that's all.

southerngurl · #46 01/26/11, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaManchaPaul

Southerngurl, That is good advice on clean-up. However, even with an agreement, the OP can't return the yuck in an internal rupture that occurs before an outside lump shows.

It's not something I would consider, but was posting best case scenario for someone that decided to do it.

susanne · #47 01/26/11, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pony

People have been around for a long time, too, but we didn't have AIDS before. So is it okay to have relations with someone who is HIV+? Or should we say that it's okay to prep your food where there has been cholera or typhus?

yes it is okay to have a relation ship with hiv positive human. i would never, ever turn my back on one. during my work as a nurse i had to take care of some and it did not make me positive.

susanne · #48 01/26/11, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mekasmom

It is everywhere in this nation. It is not a reportable disease, therefore is very widespread. You can go anywhere and risk the disease simply because the goat walks on the ground and eats hay that may have been produced anywhere or walked on by a CL positive deer at some point. It's like the flu in humans.... it's just everywhere.
In a few European nations they cull whole herds if they find an infected animal and cull any animal. But testing has only been around recent by world standards. And both people and goats have survived since creation before testing. So..... IMO testing just makes money for pharma and doesn't really protect people or goats.

As a side note..... if you do happen across a goat with a lump on the jaw, side, etc, VitC will take it down. And as the vets said, they can be lanced and cleaned out. I haven't seen a lot of the lumps in dairy breeds, but at the salebarns a lot of boer have them. Of course, since they are meat breeds, I assume the meat producers don't really care because they are just eaten anyway. Dairy breeds are usually handled more, so the owners notice any lumps or bumps right away and either treat or cull.

do yourself a favor and do a little bit research about caesous lymphadenitis.

susanne · #49 01/26/11, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southerngurl

The idea that goats have survived for how ever many thousand years is not the point. You want more than survival from your goats. Anyone who's had livestock for a while for production learns that every mark against your animal counts. You don't want your animal in a constant battle with a chronic disease. It will cost you more to get less. Your goal should be for your livestock to thrive in every way, not just survive.

If you were bent on getting them, then I would get an agreement with this person that if a lump comes up on the animals after the move, you can return the animals. Then build a pen and put them in it so they aren't all over your property. Then if they have no signs after a few months they are probably ok. If they do show signs, take them back, sanitize everything they came in contact with (vehicle, pen etc). Burn the ground they were on. Don't give any lumps enough time to bust on your property!!

only problem i see with this that there can be internal leasons too. not visible for us but hazardous for everybody handeling the animal and of course for other herd mates.

susanne · #50 01/26/11, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayzor

What are the symptoms of CL in humans/ children??
Is it incurable as in goats? I've heard it can be passed to other mammals, but haven't heard of any specifics in humans or other animals.

Thanks

yes, i saw it in human. i had a hay farmer with an abcsess on his neck. he spend a couple of days in the hospital with i.v. antibiotic after surgical removal of the lump. no clue why that one was not tested. couple of weeks he got another lump on the other side of his neck the size of a golf ball. before he went to the doctor, i asked if he ever had worked with animals that had an abscess and he then remembered that he worked at the fair with sheep and thought that there have ben some with lumps. i told him to tell the doctor. second lunp was tested and cme back positive for corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis.
this is a chronic disease that can lead to early death

6e · #51 01/26/11, 10:29 PM

I have to say that CL is in A LOT of dairy goats in my general area, in fact, I was looking for some more dairy goats and put an ad up and even stated that I wanted them CL free. One person answered and I asked them if their goats were CL free and could they send pictures. They sent pictures of a goat with an abscess in the usual place for CL and then said that they didn't know if they had it or not. Sigh. A lot of people don't care and they just deal with it, especially if they have a lot of money wrapped up in their goats, to scrap them all would be a huge loss and so they choose to deal with it instead. I can understand it, but for me personally I don't agree with it because we or others drink the milk and I cannot in good conscience ever use or sell milk from a goat that I know is diseased.

Alice In TX/MO · #52 01/27/11, 06:47 AM

I think most goat owners do not spend the hours doing research that this wonderful group of folks here do. Thus, they really have no clue about CL.

6e · #53 01/27/11, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

I think most goat owners do not spend the hours doing research that this wonderful group of folks here do. Thus, they really have no clue about CL.

That's very true too.

Oat Bucket Farm · #54 01/27/11, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by susanne

yes it is okay to have a relation ship with hiv positive human. i would never, ever turn my back on one. during my work as a nurse i had to take care of some and it did not make me positive.

I don't think she meant a friendship with an HIV positive person, I think she meant an intimate relationship.

SherrieC · #55 01/27/11, 10:21 AM

I like to watch survivor, and I remember the Boer goat farmer Man they had on there who devoleped this HUGE Boil.... Oh Gross, I couldn't stand it, Yuck.... I was just sure it was CL.

susanne · #56 01/27/11, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oat Bucket Farm

I don't think she meant a friendship with an HIV positive person, I think she meant an intimate relationship.

considering what we are talking about here and how to handle infectious diseases (as to stay away from them for our goats), it sure came not across to me that she meant different to what she wrote.

Oat Bucket Farm · #57 01/27/11, 10:52 AM

The reason I thought she meant different was because she used the word relations rather than relationship.

Pony · #58 01/27/11, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by susanne

yes it is okay to have a relation ship with hiv positive human. i would never, ever turn my back on one. during my work as a nurse i had to take care of some and it did not make me positive.

Okay, I was trying to be a bit euphemistic. I meant, "have unprotected sex with..." and should have been more clear.

I'm certainly not saying that we should avoid folks because they're suffering with a disease.