Buying goats from a CL in goat herd

Alright i will have to not get them. I have the money to spend but hubby wants me to stay on the cheap until we decide this is what we want to. Im not going to be milking them gets pets with the ability to have baby's 1st a yr. I found someone that has Pygmy's so im waiting for them to call me back. Tin mom never got your message.

Yeah-I typed it all up & my computer froze when I hit the send button. Just got another to go through!

Glad to hear that you decided not to get them. It was very admirable of this person to tell you up front about the CL.

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Holy GOAT!! Mamato3 please don't take the advice of the above poster.
While I can't take issue with CL reportablity or CL's widespread worldwide, or that mikasmom hasn't had problems with her loved ones or dogs; nor even how long goats have been around with CL.

However, I can tell you that it is an awful illness that can be outwardly seen/felt/observed or it can remain invisibly internal - this includes the lungs and udder. If the herd has CL the goats that you are considering already have been exposed. It is the attitudes and actions like the above advice that perpetuates CL.

I can't believe that someone could stomach drinking milk from a goat that has CL; EVEN if the milk is pasteurized.

Susanne, please weigh in on this post!

Mekasmom, sorry for the strong post and harshnes of my words. On this topic I am firm. Paul

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Paul Bridges - LaCabra Farm; Uvalda, Georgia - USA

That's a very sound decision.

LaMancha Paul, thanks so much for your post. It needed to be said, and I'd like to add my two cents' worth.

I've heard people around here say, "Everybody has CL."

No, everybody DOES NOT have CL. I don't have it here, and (as Yarrow said) I plan to keep it that way, thank you very much. I chose not to go to a meeting for local meat goat breeders b/c I know the folks who would show up have the same laissez faire attitude toward communicable diseases.

If, indeed, 80% of goats have CL, could it possibly be that way b/c folks ALLOW it to be like that?

And as for the argument that "goats have been on this planet for thousands of years..." People have been around for a long time, too, but we didn't have AIDS before. So is it okay to have relations with someone who is HIV+? Or should we say that it's okay to prep your food where there has been cholera or typhus?

The incidence of CL WILL go down when people act responsibly, test their herds, and refuse to sell or accept exposed/diseased stock.

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Je ne suis pas Alice

http://homesteadingfamilies.proboards.com/

I look at it like this. Goats are by nature accident prone, and will get illnesses and so forth all by themselves without having to worry about CL on top of it. Don't start your herd with a negative. Hold out and get some good healthy animals to make sure your experience is all around as good as it can be.

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Becky

I'm glad you have decided not to get the goats. Animals from a herd like that are NOT a bargain, even if they are free. No way would it be worth it for me to get the disease on my land. This disease is far worse than CAE because it's zoonotic and stays in the environment. If you're concerned about your neighbor's goats, be sure your pens and pasture are not set up in a way that your goats can have any contact with theirs.

Due to my yard setup the goat pen will be right up against the goats next door. I already have a big 20 by 40 ft area fenced off was for chickens but the chickens fly out. I also plan to fence in my front side yard which is up against the goats and that area will be a big 15 to 20 by 50 ft area. I just asked a guy of cl that had a mom and 2 babies pygmys for $100 and got griped out about them being cheep pets and he was not wasting his money on testing. Guess that means he has it.
Im guessing its bad around here as half the vets i call said that its everywhere and hard to avoid and that they will give the goat a shot in the bump and lance will only cost $10 to $15. And the shot they give them will keep it from coming back. I have a filling this will be a long hunt.

It is everywhere in this nation. It is not a reportable disease, therefore is very widespread. You can go anywhere and risk the disease simply because the goat walks on the ground and eats hay that may have been produced anywhere or walked on by a CL positive deer at some point. It's like the flu in humans.... it's just everywhere.
In a few European nations they cull whole herds if they find an infected animal and cull any animal. But testing has only been around recent by world standards. And both people and goats have survived since creation before testing. So..... IMO testing just makes money for pharma and doesn't really protect people or goats.

As a side note..... if you do happen across a goat with a lump on the jaw, side, etc, VitC will take it down. And as the vets said, they can be lanced and cleaned out. I haven't seen a lot of the lumps in dairy breeds, but at the salebarns a lot of boer have them. Of course, since they are meat breeds, I assume the meat producers don't really care because they are just eaten anyway. Dairy breeds are usually handled more, so the owners notice any lumps or bumps right away and either treat or cull.

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Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Mamato3, I sent you a PM.

Alice

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Alice
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"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

Lot's of breeders keep herds that are clean of CL. I am more afraid of it then I am of any other disease. If you will stay away from the sale barns and use biosecurity on your farm and when you go to other farms it is easily avoidable.

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http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in...m/bc/10801.htm

"The small gram-positive rod is a facultative intracellular parasite that is found on fomites and in soil and manure contaminated with purulent exudate."

This explains a lot. Facultative, meaning it can survive with or without oxygen, quite a unique and dangerous property. This gives it the ability to latch onto just about anything; panels, tires, shoes, clothing, soil, etc. and has a life-span of several months.

"The chemical composition of its cell wall (high lipid content) enables the organism to resist being killed by phagocytes and to maintain chronic infection despite a good immune response."

Also has the ability to resist being killed by white blood cells...

"Although the organism is susceptible to penicillin, treatment with antibiotics is usually not attempted because the formation of abscesses limits their penetration and effectiveness."

Prevention is the best cure!

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I'm an environmentalist, left wing, Ron Paul loving Prius driver with a farm. If you have a problem with that, kindly go take a leap.

The idea that goats have survived for how ever many thousand years is not the point. You want more than survival from your goats. Anyone who's had livestock for a while for production learns that every mark against your animal counts. You don't want your animal in a constant battle with a chronic disease. It will cost you more to get less. Your goal should be for your livestock to thrive in every way, not just survive.

If you were bent on getting them, then I would get an agreement with this person that if a lump comes up on the animals after the move, you can return the animals. Then build a pen and put them in it so they aren't all over your property. Then if they have no signs after a few months they are probably ok. If they do show signs, take them back, sanitize everything they came in contact with (vehicle, pen etc). Burn the ground they were on. Don't give any lumps enough time to bust on your property!!

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Layton Hollow ADGA Nubians
Taking Reservation for 2015!

What are the symptoms of CL in humans/ children??
Is it incurable as in goats? I've heard it can be passed to other mammals, but haven't heard of any specifics in humans or other animals.

Thanks

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in...m/bc/10801.htm
"It (CL) rarely causes regional lymphadenitis in humans."

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I'm an environmentalist, left wing, Ron Paul loving Prius driver with a farm. If you have a problem with that, kindly go take a leap.

Ok, it pays to read the whole thread before one posts.

I think you made a good decision. Since funds are the issue. Just hold onto the money you have, and put back $20 or $50 or what you can afford back each month and start looking for someone to reserve some kids out of or something. Soon you'll have enough money to get what you really want. And as you raise and sell babies, you'll have money to put into other stock down the line that you'll need.

Start with the very best, because goats multiply like crazy. Costs the same to feed a more valuable animal as it does a less valuable one.

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I wonder if much research is actually done, though. I can't find it now but I recall a post about some raisers in australia contracting CL from their goats/sheep, and thinking it may be more common that previously believed.

It would depend largely on the contact levels with infected animals in the herd. It would also, like any other illness, have a higher infection rate in older people, immune-compromised people, and young children. Honestly, I'd rather have disease free goats that I and my family can drink raw milk from.

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Dona Barski

"Breed the best, eat the rest"

Caprice Acres

French and American Alpines. CAE, Johnes neg herd. Abscess free. LA, DHIR.

There are some topics that my analretentiveness won't allow me to drop. Any view on CL except my view must be answered.

MekasMom, It IS NOT just everywhere. It is at locations where people's attitudes are similar to your view on CL. MOST dairyfarms are CL negative; BECAUSE we choose to be. Perhaps that's the reason you 'think' that dairy breeds have less CL. VitC will take down a CL lump??? HOLY GOAT!!

Responsible goatherders know that there is no 'treatment' but fatal cull of positive animals. An internal lump can't be lanced, but it can spew the uglies with a cough or the squirt of milk when the lump is in the right spot. CL in organs cause poor productivity.

We don't walk around sale barns with the same shoes that we use on our farms, well those of us who want to remain CL free. Even the state inspector wore new covers over her shoes when she visited our farm.

Southerngurl, That is good advice on clean-up. However, even with an agreement, the OP can't return the yuck in an internal rupture that occurs before an outside lump shows.

DANG I hate being like this.. I just can't help myself. really I can't....

I've seen CL with its devestation as well as its absolute YUCK... Disgusting. For a wannabe goatherder to somehow be told that it's like the flu is outrageous. CL is to the flu as a cobra bite is to a king snake bite.

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Paul Bridges - LaCabra Farm; Uvalda, Georgia - USA

Paul, you're right on the money re: CL and you just keep on preachin' it, Brother.

This is a dangerous disease. It is a devastating disease. No one who wants healthy animals and healthy humans would tolerate it. Those who DO tolerate it are perpetuating the disease.

As you state, it is NOT like the 'flu. More like resistant tuberculosis or MRSA - but not nearly as treatable. Even when (not "if" - WHEN) infected stock is killed and burned, the organism remains alive in the ground and in all areas where it spreads.

Like Susie said, once you get CL, you get out of goats. Can't get rid of it, unless maybe if you burned the place to the ground.

Our dear Cloverbud had to kill off her herd b/c she had a doe with a CL abscess that burst. <shudder>

It was worse than a nightmare. I would not wish that on my most hated enemy.

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Je ne suis pas Alice

http://homesteadingfamilies.proboards.com/

First, it being spread by deer who walk through a hay field is pretty slim. The abscess would have to be burst and leaking. You'd have to harvest the hay/feed really soon after, as exposure to UV radiation would kill some ofthe bacteria. You'd also have to harvest it before it rained or the bacteria would be 'diluted' and probably run off of the plant and into the soil. Then the goat would have to be able to eat the required amount of bacteria to cause infection - which would depend mainly on the health and resistance of the individual goat.

As for it not being a reportable disease... it seems that it is in MI. :

http://www.michigan.gov/mda/0,1607,7...155---,00.html

I've never heard that Vitamin C would make a CL abscess go away, if it was truely CL. CL is in the lymphatic system almost exclusively, and it is VERY hard to get antibiotics into the lymphatic system or into the thick walled abscesses. Therefore, it is untreatable. You can make the individual abscesses go away, but that isn't a true treatment, IMO.

As for CL not being an issue with meat animals - I believe the entire carcass must be dumped if there is two abscess on the carcass. So, it is a huge detriment to the meat industry.

The 80 percent of infected herds could be drastically reduced if people were not so ignorant about the disease, and if it was properly managed by those who WERE knowledgeable about the disease. I'm also guessing that the 80%of herds is mainly large commercial herds. I would assume that infection rates are much lower in smaller herds... and as voiced by MOST people here.

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Dona Barski

"Breed the best, eat the rest"

Caprice Acres

French and American Alpines. CAE, Johnes neg herd. Abscess free. LA, DHIR.

It is quite possible, there was one member here who had a problem with CL from deer. CL can survive on fomites; therefore it would be quite simple to transport it on a passing deer.

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I'm an environmentalist, left wing, Ron Paul loving Prius driver with a farm. If you have a problem with that, kindly go take a leap.